(Cross-posted from My Left Wing .)
The normal ratio of boys to girls born around the world is 105:100, but in China and India, the two most populous countries, that ratio is becoming increasingly skewed: in China, the proportion of boys is believed to be about 120, and India's proportion has increased from 102 in the 1950's to 108 today.
Boys in these countries are culturally preferred, and abortion is being used to produce sons rather than daughters. According to Yale Global (link after the quote below), sex-selection abortions are such a common practice that GE requires doctors ordering an ultrasound machine to sign a waiver stating that the machines won't be used to determine gender followed by an abortion. A 2006 study in the British medical journal The Lancet estimates that there are 500,000 "missing" baby girls every year in India due to this practice.
“Allowing parental choice on the sex of their offspring represents the first major step toward exercising control not over whether, when and how many children to have, but over what kind of children are acceptable,” argues demographer Joseph Chamie.
Link
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The social implications are severe, and (to my mind) the moral implications are deeply troubling. And this doesn't just happen in China and India.
Douglas Almond and Lena Edlund recently released a paper that interpreted data from the 2000 Census and concluded that among U.S.-born children of Chinese, Korean, and Indian parents, the chances that the second child born will be male to be elevated if the first child is female (117 to 100) but not if the first child is male. And if the first two children are female, the odds that a third child will be male jump to 151 to 100.
It's hard to predict exactly what these out-of-balance gender ratios will do in places where the disparity is severe and widespread, like China and India. Some experts contend there will be an increase in men marrying younger and younger women, expanded sex trafficking, and millions of "surplus males" who will be unable to get married or have families of their own.
But another intertwined yet separate issue is whether or not this is okay.
I guess this has turned into a question format, which seems to be about the only thing I write these days. I don't mean to make this a question of the day, but I'm really curious what you think about this. Should abortion be permissible for any reason, including that a son is preferred? It seems not just tragic, but chilling to me, yet I'm at a loss to see how "the pro-choice position" would distinguish sex-selection abortions from abortions performed for other reasons. If it's nobody's business but the woman, it's nobody's business, right?
Underlying all this is the more fundamental problem of a woman's perceived value. If boy and girl babies were equally valued, then we should see the population ratios hover around 104:100, and I don't imagine anyone would disagree that working to equalize perceived value is a bad thing, but what about in the meantime?
Your thoughts?
If you're pro-choice, would you restrict abortions based on sex selection?
If you would, what ideas might you have for how to go about this? If you wouldn't, do you find these abortions troubling?
__________________________
Freedom is a scary thing
It allows all kinds of maybe-not-so-great things to happen.
Professional wrestling
Pole dancing
George Bush's presidency
But the solutions to this often being worse than the disease, I vote for freedom. So yes, I would say that a legal abortion is not conditional on the reason for the abortion.
China, IIRC, is already dealing with the results of their male preference. But since the goal of the policy was population reduction (two people replaced by one offspring), unmarried males and family lines that die out were part of the plan all along --- maybe a part nobody liked to think about, but a part nonetheless.
__________________________don't ask me, I'm just improvising
Political Compass Score: Econ L/R -0.12 Social Lib/Auth -1.33
That's a consistent answer
Another consistent answer would be to prohibit abortion except under certain circumstances that don't include gender selection.
The interesting thing is that some pro-choice people intuitively or emotionally want to prohibit aborting girls b/c of their gender while retaining abortion rights. I fall into this category myself, honestly. I bet some of those who advocate for pro-choice from a feminist perspective have second thoughts about such an anti-feminist application of abortion, too, although I can't say for sure.
Sure, we can intellectually resolve the conflict (one way or the other) and be fully consistent, but there's still that nagging feeling that things aren't the way they ought to be. These sort of complications are what makes abortion such a tough issue, IMHO.
__________________________Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Safe, legal and *rare*
I think Bill was dead on with that formulation. We should all have a nagging feeling that things are not right anytime abortion happens because abortion should be the last resort. You never should have gotten to that point, and it's worth taking some time to figure out what might have been done differently.
So yeah I get creeped out when people want to abort for gender. I also get a little creeped out when they abort for Downs Syndrome, or because they just don't feel like having a kid. It's their right to get an abortion and I support that sincerely. At the same time the physical and moral ramifications should always give us pause, and spur us to look for alternatives.
Now here's an interesting question-
What if sex selection did not require an abortion to take place? Say you have a pill that inhibits the production of sperm with an X chromosome so that the odds of conceiving a boy go up astronomically.
Is that better than abortion for gender?
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Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Agreed,
and I do think we can make a lot of progress towards safe, legal, and rare through tackling the conditions that lead some people to seek an abortion -- make birth control easy to get, provide aid for pregnant women and mothers, etc.
With respect to your question, I certainly think that pill would be better, and at that point to me it's a social issue (valuing boys versus girls) that the culture has to hammer out.
I suspect this is one of the hypotheticals that separates out those who approach abortion based on religion -- I would guess that people who are against birth control would also not approve of such "playing God" even though I gather there are supposedly natural methods (probably mostly old wives tales) that can favor conception of one gender over another.
__________________________Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
No disagreement
as far as creating an environment that limits the need for abortion. All for that. Sensible sex ed, safe and avaiable contraception, and maternal support all make a lot of sense to me. I really wish the anti-aborts would focus on those things, but the overlap of religious fanaticism and anti-abortion politics makes it difficult (since two of the three above run contrary to the teachings of the Catholics and many Protestants).
__________________________I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
It wouldn't work, Tialoc.
Abortion should be a legalized right for everybody regardless of socio-economic class, status, or for any reason that people feel that an abortion is needed. Even with one's best foot forward, so to speak, things can and will go wrong. What about a woman or girl who's been sexually assaulted and ends up with an unwanted pregnancy because of it? Birth control measures, although necessary, aren't 100% foolproof; they can and sometimes will fail, and condoms can and sometimes do break. Should a woman or girl be penalized for that? No, I think not. A naive adolescent couple who engages in unprotected sex during a one-night stand, with a resulting teen pregnancy? Better birth control methods and more adequate sex education is necessary, but parents have to be willing to play a part and discuss things with their kids too. Teens who've had heart to heart discussions with parents or other adults that they can trust are more likely to make prudent decisions about sex than those who haven't, if one gets the drift.
All told, I think that it's completely and totally wrong to force a woman or girl to carry through with an unwanted pregnancy. If a child is clearly going to be born wth such a severe handicap that institutionalizing it for its whole life will be the only option, what's wrong with aborting it.. Takig care of a normal kid is tough, taking care of a really severely-handicapped kid is twice as tough.
Not everybody's fit to be a parent. Again, I'm prochoice, and always will be. My take on this whole thing is this: If one really can't take care of kids or feed them, then, dammit, they shouldn't have them. Nor should they be forced to against their will.
Also, if legal abortion rights were eliminated, there'd be many more women going back to getting unsafe, illegal abortions, and therefore increasing thei risk of serious illness of even death from infections. Welfare roles would increase, as would crime, domestic violence, ill-begotten marriage, shot-gun weddings, and general hardship for the family involved. Those who think that abortion is a crime, or murder, or that abortion is selfish, it's a far, far bigger crime against humanitiy, and far, far more selfish to bring unwanted children into this world and into our society.
I'm not sure what exactly you are objecting to
I didn't say abortion should be illegal for anyone, only that in some cases the choice to abort I find creepy.
?
__________________________I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I think it's a bad idea
in general but I can't see any reason to say aborting for sex is unacceptable when aborting for inconvenience or minor birth defects is okay.
In this case wheat is needed is a social change such that the practice is not accepted even if perfectly legal.
Another aspect is that the plces where this is most widely practiced are also places where the population is getting critical. China's taken some extremely draconian measures to get its population growth rate under control because they've simply had to.
As much as I hate to say selective aborting one sex is a damn effective, if disturbing, way to control the breeding potential of the overall population.
Ultimately the solution to both problems is likely to be the same- at some point China's population will crash in a horrible horrible way. Typically in the aftermath of a population bust, women's percieved value to society goes way up.
__________________________I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I wish you guys had ratings
Thanks for taking the time to read my essay and comment on it so thoughtfully.
I have big problems with sex-selection abortion. But then, that isn't surprising, considering I have big problems with both unequalized value based on gender and abortion for, as Tlaloc put it, inconvenience or minor birth defects.
The social consequences in the countries that practice this widely are important, but underlying the practice itself are even stickier things. Outside of the communities focused on by the report I was talking about, we still gender-select our children in this country quite a bit, whether it's through adoption, the Shettles Method
, the Ericsson Method 
, or families who just "keep trying" for a boy or a girl.
Sorry...
that last comment was supposed to be a general one to you, purpleface, and Brendan.
not all societies are ready for full freedoms culturally
And it is not me deciding it for them but a simple fact. The repercussions of suddenly allowing all people make whatever choices they wish would lead to serious societal repercussions. If I were in China or India I would crackdown on abortions based on sex selection. The slow destabilization of gender ratios could be extremely hazardous in their future and I am sure they realize that.
Maybe it is arrogant of me to suggest that they are not fully ready but it is exactly the mistake George Bush and the gang made when they imagined that Iraqis would be ready to create a better society through democracy. They are not culturally ready for full freedoms because they have not been prepared for it through the years.
Russia is another example where people were not ready and it led to a slow march toward authoritarianism.
In US however I would not restrict abortions based on sex selection. If abortion is legal it should not be restricted to reason. I support other restrictions (3rd term for example) and maybe parental notification, but not reason. Expanding banning abortion based on reason such as sex selection is too much of a move towards thought crime.
__________________________"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Slow march?
When has Russia ever not been authoritarian? :)
__________________________I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
heh well Yeltsin was a small intercession
between communism and the new authoritarianism endorsed by the people.
__________________________"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Yeltsin was a corrupt, oppressive drunk
My view of Yeltsin's system:
On top of that, Gorbachev basically blamed him for ruining Gorby's attempts to reform the USSR into a humane system. By demanding everything at once, the radical nationalist-liberals (led by Yeltsin) made stable reform impossible. Furthermore, Yeltsin sounded the death knell of the USSR by leading Russia to independence from the USSR. Gorbachev believes that Yeltsin did this simply to increase his own power as the President of Russia.
__________________________"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas
and the alternative is?
By saying that one person (or group) is not ready for freedom, you are implying that someone else is ready to rule them. If we can't manage our own lives, how can we expect anyone to first manage their life, and then manage the lives of others?
__________________________"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas
the alternative is
that they stay with whatever works right now. Chinese current government might be the best to handle whatever problems they have with overpopulation, etc.
I am becoming more comfortable with the idea that we do not need to be spreading democracy around the world :) Let them get to it on their own.
__________________________"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Gender base abortion is a symptom of the real issue
Well, I don't really have a problem with people choosing the gender of an embryo for implantation, so it isn't the abortion that is the issue for me.
Instead, I have an issue with a society that so clearly values males more than females. If 50% (of those selecting gender) were choosing daughters and the other 50% sons, I wouldn't be concerned, but such a consistent bias tells me that this is one (likely of many) symptoms of a society that considers women as second class citizens. I'm also very concerned that this isn't a woman truly exercising freedom over her reproductive biology, but instead a patriarchal husband bringing pressure to bear because he doesn't wanting to lose his chance to have a son.
Finally a society with a very large number of men per women tends to find violent means of bringing numbers back into parity. Definitely not a good thing in or near the countries in question.
That's a very good point
I'm also very concerned that this isn't a woman truly exercising freedom over her reproductive biology, but instead a patriarchal husband bringing pressure to bear because he doesn't wanting to lose his chance to have a son.
That's a very good point as far as the pro-choice argument goes. I mean of course in general we should try to limit coercion or pressure on the woman but I agree that it's probably particularly significant in these situations.
__________________________Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Brendan - o/t
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__________________________Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
anecdotes on Chinese sex ration
Do you have any evidence of this? I agree that there is a risk here, but I am not aware of any evidence (and I suspect such evidence doesn't exist), but the way you state it ("tends"), it sounds like your assertion is based on some sort of evidence.
On a related note, I know several Chinese students in the USA, and I've heard the women mention that one factor in their decision to stay in the USA or go home is that they are not given much respect (as women) in China. This could just exacerbate their sex-ratio imbalance, unless the Chinese men are likewise encouraged to emigrate in the hope of having a better chance of finding a wife outside of China.
__________________________"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas
Historically speaking gender imbalances
Have had that particular repercussion. I wasn't referring to modern day China yet.
It has usually been related to polygamy; powerful men are able to have many wives the weaker men had to take risks to prove themselves so they would get at least one. Often raiding other areas to acquire women.
Think on the polygamous societies of the past and you'll note that most of them tended to quite war-like. Of course, that leaves the question of causality. Does war kill of the men, thus making polygamy more acceptable?
I believe that there was a book called Cannibals and Kings that included a study that showed a strong relationship between the two. Villages with a higher male-female ratio had significantly higher death rate due to combat related wounds (often because of raids for women between villages). Interestingly, it tended to exacerbate itself. The constant war with neighbors made male children more valuable which led to female infanticide, which made raids between villages and conflict over women more common.
thanks for the reference (Cannibals and Kings)
I was limiting my thoughts to nation-size groups---but I see that you need smaller gorups (villages) to actually get enough data points to say anything.
__________________________"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas