We need more COIN in the Afghan realm

Mudville Gazette has a good round-up of current events in Iraq, and it looks like the surge strategy is continuing to work. There are several factors now at play: the security situation is improved , al Qaeda is continuing to get shredded , the Mahdi militias are weakened and satisfactory progress has been made on 15 of 18 political benchmarks . Also factoring into the mix is the iniative taken by the al Maliki government. It started in Basra last March, then moved to Sadr City and then on to Mosul. Al Maliki & Co. aren't just being assertive with Shiite militias and al Qaeda, they are being more assertive with the United States in their negotiations for a Status of Forces Agreement. Omar Fadhil has an interesting take on the deal, and so does Dr. iRack :

Lets be clear on one thing: the current Iraqi leadership wants some kind of long-term partnership with the United States, including assurances that we will protect them against foreign invasion, continue to conduct counterterrorism operations, continue to train and support the ISF, continue to help them re-negotiate their debt obligations, etc. All of this is in the November 2007 "Declaration of Principles," signed by Bush and Maliki, which the SFA is meant to codify. What they bristle at--or at least see as a "marketing problem" with the Iraqi people--are the various immunities in the SOFA (for our troops and contractors--the latter of which has apparently been addressed) and prerogatives in the SOFA (such as control of Iraqi airspace, the right for U.S. troops to detain Iraqis, the right to conduct independent U.S. operations, basing rights, etc.). So think of this as a "sovereignty game." The Maliki government wants us to continue to help them with residual support--on their terms.

On the security situation alone, it is likely that we will continue troop reductions after the current 45-day pause. Hopefully, we'll get to an agreement that withdraws troops and retains security.

It would nice to send our troops home, but they're needed in Afghanistan. The Pakistani government has been signing ineffectual agreements with local leaders in western provinces, and violence in Afghanistan has increased and the Taliban has exerted more influence (the Kabul and Islamabad suicide bombings are examples). In the last two months, military casualties have been higher in Afghanistan than Iraq , indicating that the situation in Afghanistan is degrading. It doesn't have to be that way. One of the recurring themes at the Captains Journal is that NATO and Afghan forces lack sufficient force projection and they lack a cohesive counterinsurgency strategy. In Helmand province, the Marines are showing how it's done , applying similar tactics that they used in Iraq.

The problem is that we don't have the numbers to do the job properly, and several of the NATO nations refuse to engage in areas where the fighting is the heaviest. The result is that our Marines are taking the brunt of the casualties.

The other problem is that Taliban and al Qaeda operatives have safe haven in Pakistan and we can't go into Pakistani territory to root them out. This is not unlike Iraq, where al Qaeda had supply lines from Syria. More from Herschel Smith :

Again, Syria has been a problem with respect to infiltration of foreign fighters into Iraq, but the surge and security plan (along with other events such as the Anbar awakening) has slowed the river of fighters to a trickle. While harder and more costly, it is possible to fight a transnational insurgency in a local battlespace, as long as global pressure is brought to bear.

Pakistan is a thorny problem, and obviously their pact with the Taliban cannot be honored by the U.S. But Pakistan’s recalcitrance is no argument for under-resourcing the campaign in Afghanistan. Recall the words of one Taliban commander: "If NATO remains strong in Afghanistan, it will put pressure on Pakistan. If NATO remains weaker in Afghanistan, it will dare [encourage] Pakistan to support the Taliban."

We’ll take the admonition of the Taliban over the pontification of Jeremy Shapiro. More troops will indeed "fundamentally change the situation." Similar to other RAND studies (which advocate a very small footprint for COIN), Shapiro behaves as if the last two years in Iraq never occurred and the gains never happened. The quickest gains in Iraq were at the hands of the U.S. Marines (the experience on which, at least in part, the security plan in Baghdad was based). They now stand ready to be at the tip of the spear in Afghanistan.

Without adequate force projection, you get Taliban-coordinated prison breaks and all kinds of attacks , followed by defeatist mentalities (hmm, I think I see an historical parallel). But we can't turn this around at current force levels. It'll continue to be a helluva strain on our fighting men and women, but with Iraq coming around, our troops' next stop must be Afghanistan.

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We have the VC on the run

We'll have them licked any day now.

qui tacet consentire

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So,

al Qaeda hasn't been shredded over the last 12 months? They'll still get away with suicide bombings here and there, but it's pretty clear that they're fleeing to less unfriendly ground, such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, etc. Today's NYT:

American military and intelligence officials say there has been an increase in recent months in the number of foreign fighters who have traveled to Pakistan’s tribal areas to join with militants there.

Sound familiar?

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Yep, they're in their last throes

Just a few dead-enders left now.

When does Starbucks open in Sadr City?

qui tacet consentire

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I want to know

when the oil is gonna pay for the war, as Paul, "It will only cost a few billion to invade Iraq and the Iraqi oil will pay the cost', Wolfowitz promised.

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What we have here is a failure to distinguish...

...between a Sunni insurgency in 2003 and a dying AQI movement in 2008, or perhaps just an over-reliance on slogans.

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We can now declare victory

over an organization that did not exist until after we invaded Iraq.

The families of those who have died will be comforted, no doubt.

qui tacet consentire

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So we do agree?

That al Qaeda is mostly vanquished in Iraq? Al Qaeda existed in Iraq at the time we invaded, but the numbers were small, and I recall in one of those investigative reports that al Qaeda had a cooperative relationship with Saddam but not an operational one. It was our fault for letting them get a foothold after we removed Saddam, and there's no doubt that Bush & Co. screwed the pooch with their abysmal post-war planning and plan.

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You confuse tactical victories with strategic victories

The only thing that matters in a war is strategic victory -- accomplishing some overarching goal such as replacing a regime.

Our strategic goals in Iraq have been muddled and confused ever since those WMDs turned up missing. Now our strategic goal seems to be to avoid losing.

That's a piss poor thing to ask a parent to sacrifice a child for. Those responsible for such a war deserve to be horse-whipped.

qui tacet consentire

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Lousy strategy then, good strategy now

Part of the overall strategy was to remove Saddam, the other part is establish a government that is a free, peaceful, non-theocratic representative republic that can protect itself and doesn't threaten its neighbors. We're finally seeing some success on the second part

As for asking parents to sacrific their kids, what are you talking about?

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More or less, the "sacrifice" is

"'Our' kids fight the newly invited 'terrorist' over there in the Iraqi's backyard so none of "them there" "terrorist" come over 'here' sacrifice."

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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When you start a war

You are asking the men and women in your armed forces to possibly sacrifice their lives. You are also asking their families to endure that sacrifice.

This is why you do not go to war unless you have no other choice. It is why you do not go to war without a compelling reason. Geopolitical advantage is not a compelling reason.

Fostering democracy in Iraq is not worth a trillion dollars, 4,000 American dead and tens of thousands wounded.

Iraq is not worth even one more American life. It is not worth one more funeral. It is not worth one more dollar.

This war has produced enough incompetence for a generation. Enough is enough.

qui tacet consentire

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Democracy in Germany didn't work out too well.

Fostering democracy in Iraq is not worth a trillion dollars, 4,000 American dead and tens of thousands wounded.

Iraq is not worth even one more American life. It is not worth one more funeral. It is not worth one more dollar.

This war has produced enough incompetence for a generation. Enough is enough.

The trouble I see down the line is, the new democratic government will be seen as being put in power by foreign hands and not true to their tradition.

ie, "Was WWI worth it, to put a democracy in Germany"
Thats just one example with an obvious bad ending, but it is a glaring example of democracy fermenting jingoism.
Iraqi's won't feel "stabbed in the back" by their new found leaders, but foreign hands molding a democracy can have disastrous consequences.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Iraq is not Germany

And we did not get into WWII in order to foster democracy. It was a little thing called Pearl Harbor.

qui tacet consentire

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We actively assisted against the Nazis

long before the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

We should have done more sooner, if anything.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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But we were not at war

We were also actively involved in Iraq for a decade before we invaded, but we were not at war or in occupation.

Do we seriously have to reopen the ridiculous Germany and Japan vs. Iraq debate?

qui tacet consentire

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I think bringing up the idea

I think bringing up the idea of the Weimar Republic when it comes to Iraq is not an extraneous comparision.
Of course the new Iraq won't have to pay repurations to the UK or France [unless those oil revenues will be used to make the US effort in Iraq break even]

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Still debating the initial decision

Given how poorly the post-Saddam era was planned and executed from 2003 through 2006, the cost was too high.

But we are where we are. And where we are right now is an Iraq that has vastly improved since the strategy began, especially since last September. We came in in 2003 and broke things, so it should be our responsibility to fix them. Now that it looks like the situation is fixable, it stands to reason that we should do what we can to continue with a plan that is working. The worst thing we can right now is to do things that will the cause the situation to reverse. Leaving too precipitously is one of them.

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Never mind that al-Maliki

is asking for a time table for US troops to withdraw, with the specific provision that there be no permanent US military bases in Iraq.

Never mind that al-Maliki is a Iranian friendly Shiite.

Never mind that thousands and thousands of Iraqi refugees that have lost their ability to earn a living, and their homes. That women now fear retribution for not covering properly.

I don't understand why conservatives think that welfare for Iraqi's is fine.... we got to lift em up and give em a hand, but welfare for our own Americans such as those stranded in New Orleans is akin to treason.

Oh yeah and never mind that Ten Billion a month is the price tag, that includes little tidbits like no-bid contracts for things that were never even built.

While McCain remains opposed to arbitrary timetables for withdrawal, the leaders of the country of Iraq are asking us to set a timetable for withdrawal.

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An army of strawmen

Read my two links concerning the negotiations. It is a negotiation, and al Maliki knows that it's in his country's best interests to maintain security.

Al Maliki is a Shiite, and he has made gestures to the Iranian regime, but it doesn't mean that he answers to Iran or the mullahs, and he has two other major blocs to deal with in the Iraqi government, namely the Kurds and Sunnis.

As for the refugee situation, don't you think that taking steps to maintain stability will motivate those refugees to come back? If we withdraw too precipitously and the gains are reversed, what would motivate those refugees to resume their lives?

Re Katrina, please tell me which conservatives have said that helping those in New Orleans is "akin to treason"? Your comment is an outright smear of conservatives, and a bigoted smear at that.

Re the cost in Iraq, that is the price we are paying for screwing up in 2003-2006. We should've spent more up front, and we're paying for that incompetence to this day.

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Maliki called for a timetable

because Sistani told him to.

"Sistani met in Najaf with Iraqi national security adviser Muwafaq al-Rubaie to receive updates on the progress of the status of forces agreement set to replace the UN mandate for Iraq, which expires this year.

"The revered cleric said Iraq should not accept a security arrangement that justifies the illegal occupation of the US military, Alalam news said."

Maliki is not the one pushing for a timetable. Sistani is. Maliki is doing his bidding because he cannot afford to lose Sistani's support.

qui tacet consentire

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Regarding conservatives and Katrina

Conservative lack of sympathy for the victims of Katrina is racially motivated and it is pervasive. Anyone who lives in Louisiana can tell you that.

It is exemplified by now former Republican Congressman Richard Baker of Baton Rouge who said right after Katrina: "We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."

Is it any surprise that after Baker resigned, so he could cash in on his influence, that his seat went to a Democrat?

qui tacet consentire

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Look

Don't smear that broad bush onto me and other conservatives. Richard Baker doesn't speak for me, and he doesn't speak for the conservative movement.

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You asked for evidence

of conservative attitudes toward Katrina that were akin to treason. Baker's comments were not treasonous, but were just as reprehensible.

And he is just one example of those who saw Katrina as the cleansing hand of God at work -- punishing New Orleans for being too black or too gay too lazy or too liberal.

I didn't say Baker spoke for you but he spoke for many conservatives -- especially in Louisiana. If you find that hard to believe, I suggest you go spend some time there.

You want more?

How about this:

Two years after Katrina, everywhere you turn, there are people carping, whining, and kvetching. Just why hasn't the pity party for the citizens of New Orleans run out of booze and chips yet? [...]

Let me tell all the citizens of New Orleans something that should have been told to them 18 months ago: it's time to stop playing the sympathy card and get over it.

Nobody is owed a living for the rest of his life because he had a bad break two years ago. Yet, we still have people affected by Katrina who have FEMA paying their rent. How sad and pathetic is it that these shiftless people are still leaching off their fellow citizens? Since when is being in the path of a hurricane supposed to give you a permanent "Get Out of Work Free" card?

And how about this gem:

Federal troops aren't the only ones looking for bodies on the Gulf Coast. On Sept. 9, Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions called his old law professor Harold Apolinsky, co-author of Sessions' legislation repealing the federal estate tax, which was encountering sudden resistance on the Hill. Sessions had an idea to revitalize their cause, which he left on Apolinsky's voice mail: "[Arizona Sen.] Jon Kyl and I were talking about the estate tax. If we knew anybody that owned a business that lost life in the storm, that would be something we could push back with."

Yep, even as New Orleans was still flooded Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III was hoping a wealthy corpse would turn up so he could get the estate tax repealed.

qui tacet consentire

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I'll ask this nicely

Please don't paint conservatives with a broad brush, portraying them as racists. A massive whopping majority are not. There are nutjobs at either end of the spectrum, and it's a cheap debate tactic to take a statement or two from them and proclaim that that's what conservatives are. I don't take statements from Noam Chomsky and make invidious overgeneralizations that progressives are bunch of terrorist-supporting socialists.

As for your above two links, neither prove racism or racially motivated lack of sympathy.

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You like to throw grenades

but you don't like it when they blow up in your face.

qui tacet consentire

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What grenades?

I think you're mistaking me for missliberties.

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I wonder if grenades

are covered in the broad category of 'the right to bear arms'.

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I never said anything whatsoever

about a precipitous withdrawal, now did I.

The refugee situation is horrendous, and tragic to the nth degree. I wonder if you asked those folks if they would rather have Saddam in power still or the glorious US invasion for 'pick your reason du jour' which they would chose.

The cost in Iraq is the price of listening to so called brilliant scholars like Paul Wolfowitz and William Kristol. And the rest of us have to pay the price for their rank 'educated' stupidity.

As for smearing conservatives, when they say that the lazy poor people in New Orleans were too stupid to get out when warned and all the rest of that malarkey and that the federal government doesn't help 'those kind of people' who bring these problems on themselves, well phooey let's help the terrorist Iraqi's instead. If you think that is a biggoted smear that's not my problem.

But the question still stands. Why are we giving tax payer money to Iraqi's (sunni terrorists, shiite terrorists) yet refuse to even consider paying one tax dollar dime to help the people in New Orleans.

What we are paying for in blood and treasure is the notion, the hard core fundamentalist belief by some that privatizing everything solves all problems and is a way to rid the world of the evils of communism / socialism and evil dictators. The early years in Iraq are a dramatic test case on how that experiment is a miserable failure.

As for where we are now and going forward, I am more than ready for the Iraqi's to step up to the plate, so that we don't have to continue paying $5,000/minute to bribe Iraqi politicians to take care of the people in their own country.

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Once again

You are smearing conservatives by using invidious overgeneralizations and by painting with a mile-wide brush.

Also, if you're going that "they say that the lazy poor people in New Orleans were too stupid to get out when warned," be prepared to name names. Because as it is, your writing is just as bigoted as the people you portray as bigots.

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I have no problem admitting

and owning the fact that I am a bigot. I don't like people that hate our government and think 'we the people' sounds like a communist slogan.

I am especially prejudiced against the group that subscribes to the political philosophy that government and it branches and programs combined is just plain bad and magically at the same time this a Great Country!

I mean good lord Bird Dog, the GOP Presidential candidates were MIA at the Tavis Smiley debates due to 'scheduling' differences, and there were five empty lecterns

I am not saying you personally.

I have the same reaction when folks use the term 'liberal' letting it roll of their tongue as it if has some sort of viscious meaning, smearing by using invidious over generalizations and a very wide brush.

So it's tax dollars to liberate muslims in Iraq, who are somehow more deserving than our own citizens in the city of New Orleans.

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More straw

Who are these conservatives that say they "hate our government"?

Who are these conservatives who say "we the people" sounds like a communist slogan?

Who are these conservatives who say that our government is bad but our country is good?

Why should Republicans show up at a debate in politically unfriendly territory, and how does that prove racism? Remember the CNN debate? They promised it would amongst Republicans but one-third of the questioners were Democratic plants. Personally, I think they all should've shown up, but their declining those invitations doesn't mean they hate black people.

Why is it "either-or" with you when it comes to Iraq and Katrina? We are capable of doing both, not to mention run all kinds of other government functions, all at the same time.

When you complain about people (again unnamed) making invidious overgeneralizations about liberals, why do you believe that two wrongs make a right?

You see, if you don't tell me who these alleged conservatives are and show me that they're saying this stuff, then yes, you are writing out of ignorance and bigotry, because you're basically just making shit up.

There may be some nutjobs out there who do say that stuff, but most of those are paleo Buchananite reactionaries or libertarians or whacky doodles like Lew Rockwell or Justin Raimondo or VDARE, not conservatives. If you go to Redstate, you'll see a fair cross-section of what conservatives are like. You may not like their politics, but you'd also be hard-pressed to find any of what you accused us of. The reason you'd be hard-pressed is because we reject racism and racist thinking.

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*cough*

Who Who Who

You sound like an owl.

"Who were the politically unfriendly people at the Tavis Smiley debate.

You can't just make up generalizations without naming names.

We could play the name game for days.

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Declining to show up...

...does not a racist make. By your illogic, Obama's refusing to appear at a town hall meeting put together by a coalition of military groups proves he is a pacifist.

My questions still stand.

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Not buying it.

But you can keep standing there and selling it if you want.

The thread has gone way off topic with your seeming defensiveness on this particular issue.

Back to fighting the war!

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Suit yourself

You have to live with your illogic, not me. While you're in that self-imposed box, perhaps you can explain why Obama loathes the military and its personnel becaue of his refusal to attend a town hall meeting put together by a coalition of military groups.

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Yes, we broke Iraq

But our responsibility does not extend indefinitely. It does not extend to $10 billion a month, 20 or 30 dead a month and a broken military five, 10, 20 years after the initial fiasco.

While we were responsible for the initial fiasco and subsequent fiascos, Iraqis bear a lot of the blame for being unable or unwilling to govern themselves.

Eventually we will leave Iraq. When that day comes Iraq will either dissolve into open civil war or the parties will reach an accommodation. Our continuing to stay only delays that process.

qui tacet consentire

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Who really knows?

Was there a relationship of any sort between al Qaeda and Saddam? Too much of the "intelligence" gathered by this incompetent and unethical administration is suspect :

The biggest torture-fueled wild-goose chase, of course, is the war in
Iraq. Exhibit A, revisited in “The Dark Side,” is Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an accused Qaeda commander whose torture was outsourced by the C.I.A. to Egypt. His fabricated tales of Saddam’s biological and chemical W.M.D. — and of nonexistent links between Iraq and Al Qaeda — were cited by President Bush in his fateful Oct. 7, 2002, Cincinnati speech ginning up the war and by Mr. Powell in his subsequent United Nations presentation on Iraqi weaponry.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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But that's a feature, not a bug

Of course a geurilla force will withdraw from where their enemy is strong to strike at where they are weak- that's a central strength of such a force.

You need to remember that the goal of a geurilla force against a conventional army is *not* to win the fight. It is to make the enemy expend energy and resources they can't afford. It is usually also to trick them into mis-steps that create new enemies.

So we're spending hundreds of billions of dollars on Inaq and Afghanistan. And as soon as we might have an upper hand they just skip across a border. At that point what do we do? Expand our list of occupied countries? Drop what's going on in the countries we already occupy? Just endure the continual pin prick attacks across the borders?

The first is prevented by lack of resources. The second is politically untenable. So we're basically stuck with the third.

Notice that AQ expended fairly negligible resources to hit us where it hurt. 9/11 was an enormous success for them in terms of ROI. And the scenario now? We're the ones supporting enormous supply lines. We're the ones saddled with the cost of garrisoning two nations. We're the ones suffering the political division.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Right, which is why clear and hold

is the appropriate strategy, rather than the previous failed quick-strike approach which did nothing to limit the effectiveness of AQI.

As far as "zooming out" that strategy goes, within reason it is the most cost-effective measure IMHO. The "hold" part means we can't leave Iraq unstable to divert resources to chase them elsewhere.

Here's where the subtleties come in, from my perspective: the "hold" has to lead to political progress such that AQI can't simply return later once we finally do withdraw troops. You're quite right that we can't just put troops everywhere at once, so we have to keep them in a former hotspot long enough for conditions to improve sufficiently to prevent deterioration later.

The obvious question then is how to encourage the local population to step up, how to generate the political progress, so that we can move on to the next area confident that AQI can't return successfully to Iraq. Paradoxically, it may take the threat of leaving to coerce the progress necessary for a safe exit, or at least that is how I understand the "timeline" argument.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Clear and hold what?

And for what purpose?

Why is it our responsibility to define and then ensure political progress?

What compelling American national interest is at stake in Iraq that is worth a soldier sacrficing his life?

qui tacet consentire

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Blocks, then cities, then regions

To provide stability.

We unfortunately cannot ensure political progress. At some point it is certainly up to the Iraqis.

My own opinion is that we owe it to them to undo some of the post-invasion mistakes we made. However, one could construct a case for why it is in America's national interests to have a stable Iraq: because the alternative would provide a breeding ground for terroristic extremism. Such might not have been the case had things gone differently after the Iraqi army was defeated, but one could argue that this is the situation we face today.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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What Brendan said

Counterinsurgency forces aren't a conventional army, and the purpose of the strategy is to suck the oxygen out of an insurgency using a multi-faceted approach. It involves clear-hold-build, to be sure, but also military intelligence, building physical and economic and politicial infrastructure, training sufficient indigenous personnel to maintain security, etc. This is what happened to al Qaeda and is happening to al Sadr.

The strategy is intended to make the cost of using violence exceed the benefit of opting into the political process. With al Qaeda, quite a few of them are irreconcilables, so they'll get killed or captured or they will flee. The others will join in. Al Sadr is sort of at that stage right now.

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Partial agreement

We don't have a dedicated counterinsurgency force, what we have are conventional military basically learning COIN on the job, which explains a lot of the painful lessons.

the purpose of the strategy is to suck the oxygen out of an insurgency using a multi-faceted approach. It involves clear-hold-build, to be sure, but also military intelligence, building physical and economic and politicial infrastructure, training sufficient indigenous personnel to maintain security, etc. This is what happened to al Qaeda and is happening to al Sadr.

When talking about the native Iraqi insurgency you're right as far as goals and methods. But these don't really apply to fighting Al-qaeda except in a detail tactical sense. In other words clear and hold and build helps with Native Sunni Iraqi insurgent groups because you remove places from whcih they may operate and recruit.

But AQ will happily pull up shop move two towns over and start again. If that town is across a national border that makes things harder for us, so much the better (c.f. Afghanistan-Pakistan or Iraq-Saudi Arabia).

The strategy is intended to make the cost of using violence exceed the benefit of opting into the political process.

Again- good against native insurgency, no use against AQ. Which means it is a very worthwhile strategy in Iraq, where the native insurgency has always been a much bigger problem than AQ. It's of less use in Afghanistan.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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wow really well done

Nice collection of data! Hopefully we can pull more troops out and send *some* of them to Afghanistan.

I hope Obama realizes that we can't abandon the Afghanistan mission.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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You and BD are both essentially advocating *Obama's*

position on this and critiquing McCain's:

If elected , Obama says, he would immediately withdraw thousands of ground troops from Iraq and send them to Afghanistan to help undermanned US forces defeat the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

"It's time to refocus our attention on the war we have to win in Afghanistan," Obama said in a speech last week. "It is time to go after the Al Qaeda leadership where it actually exists."

[...] However, McCain, a former fighter pilot and Vietnam prisoner of war, says Iraq, not Afghanistan, is the "central front" in the war on terrorism. He believes that NATO and Pakistan must do more in Afghanistan until the United States can draw down its commitment in Iraq - a position which tracks Bush administration strategy.

The Arizona senator and his foreign policy team warn that pulling US forces from Iraq would embolden Islamic extremists around the world and strengthen Al Qaeda as a national security threat.

Doesn't sound like McCain thinks the surge has worked...

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Or perhaps he would phrase it as

the surge has worked and in order to keep it working we can't withdraw troops until it works more. Or something.

Seems to me that either AQI has been marginalized or it hasn't. If it has, then we don't need to babysit the Sunni/Shiite power struggle. If it hasn't, then we need to reconsider our approach, not continue another failed policy.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Obama position is the...

...broken-clock-tells-time-correctly-twice-a-day approach. If that.

He advocated a 16-month unilateral withdrawal schedule during Iraq's darkest hour in January 2007, regardless of the stability of the Iraqi situation, and it was clearly a plan that acknowledged that the war is lost and could not be turned around. He couldn't have been more wrong at that time and at every time since then. Whether Obama's plan is the right one today is a matter of debate because 16 months to remove all combat brigades is pretty damned rapid, and there's no assurance that enough Iraqi troops will be ready to bridge this gap.

Last week, he added the "maintaining stability" clause to his 16-month withdrawal plan. By his denying to acknowledge that the surge strategy has worked, and denying that's even changed his positions, he's trying to spin his way into saying that he was always right and that he always did have the right plan. It's an oil tanker load of malarkey. By taking his tack, Obama is piggybacking onto the success of a surge strategy that he completely rejected from day one. Never mind that it was this very strategy that helped propel Iraq to the situation it is in today. As far as chutzpah and political opportunism goes, Obama has broken the world record. If this were an Olympic competition, he'd win a gold medal by a mile.

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Hang on, these are separate issues

Leave the 16-month out of Iraq (ie, minus at least 100,000 troops) thing aside for the moment.

Here, Obama is discussing an immediate action that involves thousands (not a huge number) of troops: he would immediately withdraw thousands of ground troops from Iraq and send them to Afghanistan to help undermanned US forces defeat the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Contrast with McCain's position, which opposes shifting forces from Iraq to Afghanistan at least in the immediate future; he says Iraq, not Afghanistan, is the "central front" in the war on terrorism and The Arizona senator and his foreign policy team warn that pulling US forces from Iraq would embolden Islamic extremists.

You suggest above that "with Iraq coming around, our troops' next stop must be Afghanistan" and Ender says "Hopefully we can pull more troops out and send *some* of them to Afghanistan." If you want to call it a broken-clock moment then that's fine but I just want to emphasize that you are both agreeing with Obama on this topic and disagreeing with McCain.

Why do you think McCain is of the opinion that we can't withdraw troops from Iraq if the surge has succeeded? Recall that the plan was to boost troop levels, achieve a decrease in violence and promote political progress, and then drawback troop levels. Doesn't McCain's apparent opposition to shifting those troops to Afghanistan suggest that he doesn't believe the surge has actually succeeded, despite his statements to the contrary?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Ahmed Rashid recently gave an interview to Der Spiegel:

"SPIEGEL: What mistakes have Western governments made in Pakistan and Afghanistan? Rashid: The original sin was made when the US abandoned Afghanistan in early 2002 in order to prepare for the war in Iraq. We did not see major reconstruction of the country until 2004 and the window of opportunity for winning over the Afghan people and truly undermining Taliban influence was lost.

SPIEGEL: Can Afghanistan still be saved?

Rashid: Yes, I still think Afghanistan is doable. But it is not a single conflict anymore -- it is becoming a regional war that is spreading to Pakistan, Central Asia and Iran. And what is needed now is a regional diplomatic approach of the West to resolve this problem. It has become a much bigger problem than it was in 2001."

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McCains position is that...

...something that will never happen [US troops staying in Iraq with NO casualties] will actually somehow happen.

Would McCain be fine with leaving Iraq before the job is done and conceding victory to the "terrorist" just because the "duly" elected democratic government of Iraq says so?

BHO left a lot of wiggle room in his original statements, he talked about removing "combat troops"
Almost the same as the current administration approach of not having "permanent" bases in Iraq.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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That said

McCain needs to update his statements to better reflect current events in Iraq such as the SoFA and the anticipated drawdowns after the 45-day pause. Also, statements from McCain & Co. that Obama wants to "surrender to Al Qaeda in Iraq to fight them in Afghanistan" are becoming out of date because al Qaeda is on the ropes in Iraq. This comment from McCain sounds sensible to me:

"To somehow think that it's an either/or situation - either Afghanistan or Iraq - is a fundamental misreading of the situation in the Middle East," McCain said on June 30. "What happens in Iraq matters in Afghanistan. It matters in Iran. It matters in all the countries in the region."

The other factor is that the generals and other personnel are telling us that the situation remains fragile, and McCain should say that we shouldn't do anything to reverse the Iraq situation in order to jump over to Afghanistan. Afghanistan isn't going anywhere, and it's going to take awhile to turn things around. In the interim, we can press for more NATO troops and we can press for those NATO troops to go where the action is and to start implementing a real COIN plan.

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I agree with your quoted comment from McCain (nt)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Good summary, thanks for the post (nt)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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The Iraqi elections on 10/1/08 will tell a lot.

I mean, the whole point of the surge was supposed to bring stability to the country so the various parties & factions could finally hammer out a working government.

We'll see. Americans are going to have to acquiesce Iraqi requests setting up a time table to leave though. And the right shouldn't get too bent out of shape about it. Really the two main lead groups don't mind having Americans (& their money) around. But not so many. We'll have to pull most of the troops out. Iraqi's really only want the money anyhow.

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