Georgia-Russia: What Really Matters this Fall is Clear

I'm not enthused in any way about the fall election and for many, many, many reasons. The ham and jelly vs. peanut butter and cheese sandwich choices (from my POV anyway) when all I want is a damned "ham and cheese sandwich" leave me opting to skip lunch...so to speak. But, I guess all I can do is favor ham or cheese and tolerate the rest.

So, whether you want to label foreign policy "ham" or "cheese" is kind of irrelevant in the analogy but whichever it is is the one that matters more right now.

While neither Obama or McCain have given the ideal response, Bush's response is exactly the kind of pointless nonsense that I'm incredibly weary of. Why can't he just SHUT UP and veto idiotic bills from Congress for a few more months and just go back to Crawford? My God, enough already! This self-righteous, hard-headed, bumbling, fumbling, nonsensically fruitless posturing does not serve the people he's supposed to be serving nor does it really offer any constructive hope to the poor, innocent people trapped in this mess.

And speaking of hard-headed and self-righteous bumbling and posturing , McCain seems to be upping the ante and predictably so. But Mark over at Publius Endures hits the nail on the head with his assessment of what's really at stake in this election, what the real difference (of any real consequence) is and what REALLY MATTERS here:

As much as Obama has increasingly come to parrot the foreign policy establishment consensus that has held sway in Washington for, well, a really long time, Obama's consensus view is far less dangerous than the reflexive aggression characterized by the last eight years and, yes, Senator McCain. It is the rejection of this reflexive aggression...that I view as the single most important issue this fall.

Amen.

And why? What's the problem with McCain? Well, it's something people in my neck of the woods call, with much disdain: National Greatness Conservatism...a worthless, otherwise innocuous POV, like believing the earth is some 4,000 years old or was really created in seven days, until it influences government policy. Then at that point, it can only be bad. Google it and you'll see of slew of scathing writing on it from a variety of libertarian/classical liberal sites and think tanks.

Never mind of course that this Georgia/Russia affair is far from clear or black and white and that it deserves no effort of side-taking from our government and for a variety of reasons. The front page of Cato is currently at the time of this writing awash with articles and commentary on the matter and the Independent Institute was quick with a detailed reaction on their blog.

Mark sums things up quite well about good ol' tough "National Greatness":

The fact is that the simplistic view of good and evil advocated by so many on the political Right results in a situation where all foreign policy follows the dictum "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." While unintended consequences are inevitable in almost anything government does, a foreign policy based on this dictum is a recipe and guarantor for the worst kinds of unintended consequences. It results in needless provocation of enemies or potential enemies; it further destroys American moral standing by propping up autocracies that are barely distinguishable from the enemy autocracies over which we claim moral superiority; it entangles us in foreign adventures that only minimally implicate American interests, if at all; and it ensures the ever-upward increase in military spending (and thus the national debt).

There's no inherent gain in taking some hard-line stance against Russia and with Georgia. As soon as our government does it, it's just dripping with incredible hypocrisy and unneeded potential dangers. We have no business taking sides or involving ourselves in this matter in any way other than as a neutral reminder of what we uniformly stand for as country while ready to offer true, peaceful assistance. We should not be pretending to convey some silly notion of one side being right and the other wrong. It's clearly not the case and thus no action we take should be on the side of either country nor should we be provoking potential danger or confrontation with countries we have no direct quarrel with...at least no quarrel that deserves any aggressive posturing.

The schizophrenia of conservatives toward government stupidity never ceases to amaze me....

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John!

I wondered where you were. Welcome back.

The thing that bothers me about the common wisdom of both McCain and Obama is the expansion of NATO to include Georgia. Including Georgia in NATO might sound like a nice idea, but are we really willing to start a shooting war against Russia because they're muscling a two-bit country in the middle of nowhere?

To put it a bit differently, do you think the American people want us propping up a country most of them probably didn't even know existed until a week ago?

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

…………

hey, Stiney

I've been here,there, anywhere, everywhere and nowhere. Been busy with work and other stuff.

In answer to your question, I would say no.

………… parent

Yes but...

...I believe it is in our best interest to support such a democracy in the place that has the least of it.

It would not be "us", it would be NATO, if Germany had not screwed it up, Russia would never of had the, dare I say, audacity to do what they did.

Look into it, Georgia was on the fast track, they turned one of the most corrupt socialist nightmares in the world, and turned it into a pretty well functioning democracy in fairly short order, we just left them out to dry to long and Russia picked the clothes off the line so to speak.

Russia said America needs to choose between it's relationship with Russia, or it can continue to tinker with Georgia, "America's pet project"? Like Condi said, "That says more about what Russia thinks about their neighbors, than it does anything about America and its allies."

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Georgia is hardly a shining beacon of liberal democracy

Of the former USSR states, I'll fall over myself pinning that medal on the likes of Estonia. But Georgia? Ha. Come on.

………… parent

You are wrong, Estonia is a greater success true, but...

...following the Rose Revolution of 2003, Georgia began far-reaching reforms in governance and economic policy that were turning the country into a post-socialist success story.

Georgia ranked 44th out of 141 countries on the Economic Freedom of the World index, was cited by the World Bank as one of the world's leading reformers, and was sustaining economic growth of more than 9 percent per year!

Georgia was rapidly modernizing and had a vision for continued high growth in a otherwise hostile neighborhood.

So, HA! Come on!? ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Look, RW

I'm not arguing whether Georgia was/is heading in the right direction. But I'm not going to sugar coat the progress they've made by ignoring the lapses and deplorable incidents along the way.

In this sense, I hardly see what exactly I'm supposed to be "wrong" about.

………… parent

Well, ok don't be wrong, you label it, but...

...I made the point Georgia was in fact a bugeoning viable, rapidly developing democracy worth defending..

 You sort of blew it off by posting;

"Georgia is hardly a shining beacon of liberal democracy
Of the former USSR states, I'll fall over myself pinning that medal on the likes of Estonia. But Georgia? Ha. Come on."

So I responded with reasons that Georgia is in fact a shining beacon of demoracy.

Therefore I found your conclusion to be...wrong. 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Team America: World Police

As I've said before, NATO has outlived it's usefulness. Its time we disbanded it.

Look into it, Georgia was on the fast track, they turned one of the most corrupt socialist nightmares in the world, and turned it into a pretty well functioning democracy in fairly short order

Good for them. I don't see how that has anything to do with us. It's not our job to promote democracy or republican governance. If indeed democracy and republicanism are all they're cracked up to be and freedom is a universal ideal, everyone will get there sooner or later.

The way I see it, neither Georgia or Russia or anyone else have any good reason to be in South Ossetia. How the South Ossetians want to be ruled is up to them.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Well a slight change in tack there, but ok...

NATO is as crucial today as it ever was.

What do you think we live in some new world order where everything is going to work out just fine, when Vlad is running the show in Russia? A Russia still smarting from the loss of the cold war?

I agree in as much as we should not be out nation building per say, although we do have a vested self interest in seeing democracies flourish. And we should do so as we have with Georgia for example. We should give them direction, trade with them, etc.

And of course we agree on South Ossetia.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

NATO's time has passed

NATO is as crucial today as it ever was.

What do you think we live in some new world order where everything is going to work out just fine, when Vlad is running the show in Russia? A Russia still smarting from the loss of the cold war?

The cold war has been over for almost 17 years. Mutual defense pacts were what started WWI. By chance, have you ever played the game Civilization III? The surest way to lose is by signing a mutual defense pact with any other country. There need be only one mutual defense pact. One that says the entire world will come to the defense of any country invaded unprovoked, much like the Iraq-Kuwait conflict**.

although we do have a vested self interest in seeing democracies flourish

I'll give you that, though it doesn't follow that we should do anything other than offer moral support to them. There are lots of unintended consequences when meddling in other countries' affairs, even when our intentions are completely benevolent and in being a good neighbor. Ron Paul made this case very clearly.

We should give them direction

No. They need to figure out this democracy thing themselves. If they ask for advice, we can give them some, but nothing more than advice. Want to sow discontent among the Georgians? Give the authoritarians the ability to paint popular Georgian leaders as Washington stooges.

trade with them

Sure.

And of course we agree on South Ossetia.

Who isn't for self-determination?

**Reports were that Kuwait was slant-drilling into Iraqi fields. No need to start a war over that, but Kuwait wasn't completely innocent. Iraq should have exhausted all diplomatic options first, but since Hussein was at the helm, one couldn't have reasonably expected him to do so.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

We must agree to disagree re: NATO then...

...Now the UN, I'm all for dumping that relationship.

Get the Secretariat Building emptied out ASAP and pack 'em all off somewhere else!

John Bolton said it well;

"There is no United Nations. There is an international community that occasionally can be led by the only real power left in the world, and that’s the United States, when it suits our interest, and when we can get others to go along. And I think it would be a real mistake to count on the United Nations as if it is some disembodied entity out there that can function on its own."

"The League of Nations was a failure because the United States did not participate. The United Nations would be a failure if the United States did not participate... The United States makes the UN work when it wants it to work, and that is exactly the way it should be, because the only question, the only question for the United States is, what is in our national interest. And if you don’t like that, I’m sorry, but that is the fact."

"If you think that there is any possibility in this country that a 51,000 person bureaucracy is going to be supported by most Americans, you better think again. The UN Building in New York has 38 stories. If you lost 10 stories today it wouldn’t make a bit of difference. The United Nations is one of the most inefficient inter-governmental organizations going. It has been put into a position of hiring ineffective people who do ineffective things that have no real world impact, and we pay 25% of the budget."

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I really don't like the UN either

The problem with the UN is that it was never meant to be anything but a forum for countries to discuss their problems. It suffers from mission creep. Whenever there is some want of an international program to do X or Y it is implemented through the UN, which isn't really equipped to handle such a thing.

I'd prefer a weak confederation among all nations. I'm a world government supporter if you weren't previously aware.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

I'm getting that... LOL! ;-) n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

NATO has promise. bush43 bungled it & pursued the wrong

course.

NATO should have approached Russia and asked them to join. That would change a lot of things.

I see the old Cold Warriors rending their clothes and screeching to go back to the good old days...a new Cold War.

I don't approve of many of the things that the Russian government has done since Putin, but I don't view them as my enemy. It's clear several folk here assume that to be true but that isn't a majority opinion. But William "the bloody" Kristol & Bill Bennet & the old boys want to whip you in that direction.

I would be happy if the two provinces that didn't want to be part of Georgia were able to leave. Russia tearing up Georgia is brutal & dumb. I don't support that. But I'll be damned if I'm going to have any part in letting WW III get started by this bunch of warmongers & profiteers over S. Ossetia. No. Just imagine if Cuban troops were marching across northern Mexico with the locals blessing. The US would rightfully be able to say that is within their sphere of local influence and do something about it without caring what anyone else thinks. I guess I'm more of a Monroe Doctrine. Anyway....same holds true for Russia in Georgia.update - John Cole sees the same thing

Yes I want Russia out of Georgia without wrecking the place or looting it blind right now. No, it isn't worth another war.

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Oh Please?

Why is EVERYTHING GW's fault?

Can you think a little harder and come up with some new material?

Do you see who the aggressors are here? How do you go directly to this is conservatives in America's doing? (Snapping fingers) Come now?

To suggest inviting Russia into NATO is irrational.

You're dupability is palpable, to say Putin is not completely fixated on undermining the west, and America in particular, is just another example of liberal utopian ideology, and dangerous naivety.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Neocon Hack. Let's keep the personal taunts down, eh?

You've been trying to rewrite history and it won't work.

It was Georgia that invaded S. Ossetia and that was what prompted the Russians to retaliate. Georgian President is the agressor in this event. & yes, I suspect that dubya & McCain have helped push the Georgian president into doing the amazingly dumb stuff he did.

I said I don't find Russia to be my enemy. Nothing you've blathered has shown me any reason to think otherwise.

Lastly, you suggesting an opinion of mine isn't rational hardly leaves me questioning my jugement. rather it reinforces it pretty well. This isn't a Liberal/conservative issue. But you want to make it one sooo bad. Just another example of dangerous conservative naivety.

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Feel better? ;-)

Why don't you show me the facts then?

I'm here waiting?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

This is

what you get for being so annoying.

Although it's fun to see someone tow the party line as much as you do.

BTW, in the right wings endless incarnation of Hitlers, which 'Hitler' is worse, Obama or Putin?

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Do you ever...

...make a point worth making?

Or stay focused enough to follow a thread through to your inevitable concession?

Or is it just your practice to make crude, nonsensical partisan comments, then disappear, only to make the arbitrary snide comment here and there?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

In doing more research...

...your addled minded response makes even less sense.

Who would you put stock in, the Russians , who over ran the entire country, and lied about what they were doing the whole way through, and evidently still are?

"On the ground in South Ossetia -- the contested region where fighting
broke out last week between Georgia and Russia -- there was little
evidence that Georgian attacks killed thousands of civilians, as Russia
has said."

Or the freely elected leaders of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Georgia itself?

"The three Baltic presidents signed a joint declaration stating “we will use
all means available to us as Presidents to ensure that aggression against a
small country in Europe will not be passed over in silence or with meaningless
statements equating the victims with the victimizers."

I mean the evidence that proves you dead wrong goes on, and on, and on!

So get you act together, or chill out and don't talk smack!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Timeline of hostilities

1: South Ossetia, likely fires first, with some sporadic shelling into Georgia proper.
2: Small scale, small arms and artillery fire, likely exchanged
3: Georgia land forces attacks South Ossetia, which is occupied by Russian "peacekeepers."
4: Russia invades everything in sight.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Red_Wing calls George W Bush a Liberal Utopain Ideologue

ROTFLOL!

Quote - Red_Wing

to say Putin is not completely fixated on undermining the west, and America in particular, is just another example of liberal utopian ideology, and dangerous naivety.

Quote - George W Bush

I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy

(I'll grant you the danagerous naivety though)

………… parent

Good one.... LOL!

...That was 7 years ago ...You might get a different answer today, ya think? ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I'd say Bush's eyes

are turning green with envy.

………… parent

????? You're something else....????? n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Bush would love to have

Putin's control and Putin's budget deficiet and his connections to Iran.

Photobucket

This is for that real good sense of humor Republicans have. Ha! Ha!

………… parent

Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush,

Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush.

There, Miss Liberties, have we got enough Bush in for you to at least last the weekend?

That should give you enough time to think up some new ways to bash conservatives.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That is what I love about you

It's so easy to rile you up.

Where IS that good Republican sense of humor?

As if you wouldn't blame everything under the sun, including a rainy day on Obama, if he becomes President.

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Look, I know Obama is bad for the country.

And that makes me very concerned.

So aside from the "cute" comment thrown in for fun, I try to put forth as persuasive, fact based, pertinent discourse as is at my command.

And unlike you I am willing to work it through to its fruition. 

I certainly don't mind the occasional, (or worthy regular for that matter), funny tie in or allegorical statement, but in the end I would like to think that all this rhetoric means something, and is going somewhere.

You seem not to subscribe to that theory, so if I seem miffed at you, that would be the underlying cause. :-) 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Your are exactly wrong

Totally and completely wrong.

And you have never been so wrong.

Your assumptions are based on false facts and made in bad faith.

That's all there is to it.

We will NEVER agree, unless of course, you change your mind.

:)

And to further aggravate you, and to highlight your hypocrisy and your bad judgement, I give you your complete copy and paste, presented as if it was some sort of in depth analysis of this or that, when in fact it was complete biased hackery that you perceive to be fact.

Other than that I think you are a nice guy. But of course that doesn't matter.

………… parent

What?

Fine as for above the smile, but as for the "copy and paste" bit, thats absurd to say.

I posted an "Open Thread" post I in no way took credit for, but didn't add the credit?

My bad, but big deal?

Can you claim in all your posting to have never forgotten to hyper-link a credit to an article? I think not, everyone has done it on accident one time or another.

I apologized for it and moved on, it was too late to edit it.

But rest assured Missy, with equivocation, as far as you and I, and oratory skills go, you are subordinate in every way girlfriend.

LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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And! If my facts are "wrong...

...PLEASE! Prove it!

That's what this is all about, remember?

It's clear you can not, because you have not!

Once again, the only thing you have proven is that you are the Queen of embellishment and hyperbole!!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I don't care

so much about the boo boo, it's that you agreed with the substance! (gag)

God help us all! :)

………… parent

Move along

Nothing to see here.

Seeing as most of the moderating team is on hiatus and I've got FP privs, I'm leading a hostile takeover of the mod duties. :-)

Both you and RW are going a bit overboard. Take a deep breath and walk away from the keyboard, guys.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

:-) ....Thanks...it's so frustrating though! n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

what's there to edit, stiner?

I would delete something if it were warranted but it just seems a bit testy...not obscene or below the belt.

But yes: the arguing isn't very productive. I agree.

………… parent

I agree too...

..but when it comes to getting a straight answer, well, to use a phrase of my great granddad's;

"That girl's slicker than owl sh*t on a sycamore limb."

Oopps...maybe that gave ya something to edit... ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

hehehe

It's a quote and you bleeped a letter. It happens a lot with no action.

Context matters.

BTW, not to take a shot at MissL (I'm not) but if you're looking for a straight answer from her and she doesn't give you one, then you're simply not going to get one. Save your finger strength.

………… parent

Straight answer.....

The facts:

Take something simple like WMD in Iraq. There were authorized inspectors who said there was no evidence that Saddam's WMD was active or reconstituted. Those facts were presented by many. Why were they discounted?

It turns out that Colin Powell knowingly lied to the UN about WMD, to make the case for invading Iraq.

At the time 'crazy people' or in your world, liberals, like myself were highlighting these facts, while folks on the right were calling us unpatriotic for daring to question the narrative.

I bring up this specific example not to argue about WMD, but to put an exclamation point on your notion that I don't give you straight answers. My point is that when I do quote good and credible sources for facts they are often summarily dismissed. So the facts seem less important than the point of view or the general direction of the overall narrative that somehow liberals hate America, are essentially delusional, or hate the troops, or whatever.

Here is a specific example of distortions of the truth. Why is Jerome Corsi's book being given any credence whatsoever? Here is a fact. He was and is welcome on Storm Front Radio and will be speaking again on this obviously White Supremist radio station. Why is someone like Jerome Corsi given any credence whatsoever in any mainstream media outlet, when it is a fact that he is on the disturbing fringe of bigotry and he tells many clear and obvious lies?

My point isn't about the specifics, it is that generally when I or others, present hard facts, the right insists that the facts MUST have two sides, or that 'the facts' need to be fair and balanced. If I say it's raining, is that liberal? If I say Georgians are disappointed in the US not offering them more military support against Russia is that liberal? Both are are observations of the facts on the ground.

This is an example of what I am getting at: your puzzlement that I quoted what the people of Georgia said in a well respected newspaper. Your immediate reaction was "Why do I insist on American bashing", as if quoting the people of Georgia is somehow unpatriotic and worthy of mockery.

Hopefully you are getting my drift here. :)

………… parent

Ok.

If all fairness I have tried over and over to ask you questions and your response is a condensed version of what you wrote here.

You seem to have a need to constantly hyperventilate the "poor liberal/evil conservative" routine.

Whatever.

Let us move forth in harmony, or at least some tame pundit version thereof, and seek the truth... ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

fair enough

peace be with you

………… parent

Nothing to delete

They weren't getting anywhere. That was all.

One points have been made there's no reason to devolve into attacks or anything else that's unproductive.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

What?

Fine as for above the smile, but as for the "copy and paste" bit, thats absurd to say.

I posted an "Open Thread" post I in no way took credit for, but didn't add the credit?

My bad, but big deal?

Can you claim in all your posting to have never forgotten to hyper-link a credit to an article? I think not, everyone has done it on accident one time or another.

I apologized for it and moved on, it was too late to edit it.

But rest assured Missy, without equivocation, as far as you and I, and oratory skills go, you are subordinate in every way girlfriend.

LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

But ... He looked into his soul?!?

Surely someone so straightforward and trustworthy couldn't have hidden the potential to completely fixate on undermining the West (and America in particular) from someone who could gaze deep into the depths of his soul!

And you may recall that Bush was mocked for this claim of spiritual insight by those of us you are now calling incredibly naive.

President George W Bush

………… parent

You keep coming back to this?

I don't know what more you want me to say? We addressed this already, right?

I mean I think he was trying to move things in the right anti cold war sort of direction, funny you would attack him for that? 

You liberals are hard to please! LOL! 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Occam's razor is sharp

Yes, you addressed it in a mock-worthy fashion.

I'm not attacking Putin for it, I'm mocking you and your Dear Leader for the constant good vs evil dichotomy. You and Bush assume that an ex-KGB pragmatist extraordinaire in his late forties became a hard-core believer in freedom and then became an authoritarian a few years later rather than simply accepting that the man stayed the same but the conditions and constraints on him changed.

………… parent

Please remember, I am not GW...

...You talk as if I and GW are one and the same person?

Do you think because GW says something we, as conservatives automatically think it too?

Let me just assure you of something, we don't.

I knew Putin was an evil piece of _______ when he took power, just as I know it now.

And I came to that conclusion without having to stare deeply into his eyes. ;-l

As for your reference to the law of succinctness, I'm not sure where that comes into play here?

If you read my previous post as "Mock Worthy", I apologize, as that most certainly was not the intent, instead I included links that suggested Bush had not looked into Vlad's eye's for many years, and today if you could ask GW his opinion, it would most probably be quite different.

After re-reading, I can see where the "ya think" at the end could give one the wrong impression, but I am actually being genuine in asking if you agreed with me.

;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Law of succinctness?

Occam's razor is that the simpler answer tends to be the true one. In this case, that Putin hasn't really changed all that much, it was just the situation.

Also, my point was not that GW still thinks Putin is a good guy, but that his judgement on people sucks. His original statement was ridiculous and he was rightly mocked by us craaaaaazy left wing ideologues at the time.

Yes, I know that you and GWB are probably not the same person (If I heard you pronounce the word "nuclear," I'd be able to tell for sure. But you are definitely on his and McCain's team. Either because you agree or because you feel the need to stick up for him, I have yet to see you say that he was wrong about anything about which 'the left' was correct. (In fairness, I haven't read all of your posts, so I'm not claiming exhaustive knowledge on the subject)

………… parent

Right, Occam's Razor is also known as...

..."The Law of Succinctness". So we agree that Putin has not changed then, even if we view him differently.

What are some examples of Bush' bad judgement about people?

I know from personal experience, Bush was heavily criticized by the right for his "Putins eyes" statement. I think that was a universal one! LOL.

Nuclear, ;-), funny! 

I have indeed it seems spent my time engaging many targets here, so it leaves little time for looking for the bright side kind of thinking, ;-) But I will try that ... 

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Bad judgement

What are some examples of Bush' bad judgement about people?

Well, one glaring example is his judgement that Michael Brown would make a competent administrator of FEMA.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Yes, agreed. That was a bad call. n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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WW Henry Do?

You're both right, of course.

Suggesting this is George's fault is simplistic and partisan, and not really very helpful. But trying, for the good of the R team, to come up with justification for George's general incompetence is not productive at this point either: he's already amply demonstrated his competency in foreign affairs, and Red Wing, you say as much -- that he does not speak for all conservatives with his "I saw his soul!" kind of statements. Neither George nor his State Department have been very good at much of anything, despite being the supposed antithesis of liberal utopian ideology ;-)

The issue of NATO is bigger than this Georgia/Russia conflict, so I won't address that point.

Putin is indeed smart, ambitious, probably extremely ruthless in pursuit of his goals, and thinks of Russia first. But we cannot eradicate that type of person, nor can or should we step in and force them to stop doing something every time they do something "we" don't like. Old-style conservatism would limit us to protecting our interests, and while a democratic and not-Russian-controlled Georgia is a good thing, in the larger scheme it's not the most important thing, and certainly not worth going to war over.

And this to me is John's basic point...when "bad" stuff happens in the world, do we rattle our swords and threaten force a la McCain style, or do we do the fancy diplo-speak (saying lots that is perceived to be substantial while not actually committing to much at all) a la Obama.

Foreign policy is complex, and I'd rather return to a byzantine style of diplomacy for a while, myself.

Good diary, John.

(The reference is to Kissinger, of course)

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Good input...

...I would agree in large part.

I grew up in the Reagan era, I was one of the early members of Young America's Foundation.

I am a lifelong conservative, but have adopted some Libertarian views too, but they are mostly limited to domestic policy, ie., the Fed, a return to the gold standard, return of powers to congress and the abolishment of unconstitutional federal bureaucracies.

In terms of foreign policy, and it must be the Ronald Reagan in me, I still default to the position America must defend and protect freedom and democracy in the where it exists.

What good was it to win the cold war and be the worlds only remaining superpower if we don't stand by our partners in the world and stand firm on the principles that got us here.

Can you imagine had the Soviet Union won the cold war, they would have run havoc over the world! And beware, if we stand by and do nothing, they still may.

I believe Russia's goals for the war with Georgia are far reaching and include the end of Georgian sovereignty in the name of "regime change" by bringing down President Mikheil Saakashvili and installing a more pro Russian puppet leadership. They have done all this in the hope of preventing Georgia from joining NATO, and essentially threatening Ukraine that its insistence on NATO membership may lead to war and/or its dismemberment. This would shift control of the Caucasus, and especially over strategic energy pipelines; and recreates a cold war sphere of influence reminiscent of the former Soviet Union.

So the question remains, how do we react to this?

I believe America must respond in a strong manner Putin understands, not alone, but with a combined voices of Europe.

Does it mean killing Russians, no, it means strong no nonsense sanctions and consequences...at this point.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Shutting the barn door

Defending and protecting freedom does not always mean a call to arms. In this specific situation, the proper course to defend and protect Georgia's freedom may have been to deter the Georgians, no matter the provocation.

Sometimes, standing by your partners means reminding them of realities. Life, and global politics, are not fair; if Russia (or China, or perhaps soon even India) wish to throw their weight around, their neighbors will be affected.

So to answer your question, how do we react? Well, if we had a decent State department we ought to have taken the preventative steps and not now be placed into this position. (And I thought Russian studies was Secty Rice's specialty --- was she asleep at the wheel?) Given that our State department did not foresee this, and did not prevent it, I would devoutly hope that they might take the time to get their arms around the issues and to formulate the obviously missing plan instead of simply reacting to the situation with whatever sound byte they think the public wants to hear. Or, to put on my cynical political junkie hat for a second, with whatever sound byte they think will get their candidate elected in November.

Personally, I think we're screwed, and the Georgians will pay the price. We will not intervene militarily, because the repercussions are too great and the justification too weak. This is not worth a war with Russia, and you can be sure Putin factored that into his plans.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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I am sure in the end....

...the Russians will look like claud's, the Georgians will have a new holiday to celebrate, and the US will continue to press to get Georgia and the Ukraine into NATO.

Although it seemed precarious for a moment, the Russians of today are just as un-savvy and clumsy as their predecessors, and in the world we live in thats a diplomatic handicap.

Now for a partisan note;

Everyone got on GW's case for going to the Olympics, in hindsight it was the right thing to do.

And his steady hand in the face of Putin's clown foolery again in hindsight was admirable.

America handled this perfectly, Bush has played Putin in this one....so far. We are now demanding that the Russians also get out of the two disputed territories as well, which I thought unlikely a week ago.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Disagree, RW, on course of action toward Russia.

I believe America must respond in a strong manner Putin understands, not alone, but with a combined voices of Europe.

Does it mean killing Russians, no, it means strong no nonsense sanctions and consequences...at this point.

The first part of the statement is ambiguous. I could agree but considering your POV on the matter, I doubt it. And that brings us to the second part of the statement.

Sanctions and consequences and other types of aggressive action that interfere with people's lives and abilities to interact across borders is not the right way to handle these matters.

By saying such things, you are, in effect, leaving the governments of these countries to control the private affairs of its otherwise peaceful citizens. Not good.

Perhaps you trust our government to take such risky and bold action that hurts its own citizens in a variety of ways...not to mention other citizens. I don't.

Russia should not be excluded from G8 meetings nor should economic sanctions be the course of action. Business people have business to attend to, people travel and interact with others across borders. We're not on this planet to adapt to and live around the caprices of government leaders. We are here to live our lives. Bush's problem with Putin or vice-versa or anyone else's problem with Putin or vice-versa is NOT my problem...nor is it your problem or innocent Russians' problem.

Perhaps you find this way of thinking naive or wishful but it isn't. We need to stand firm and not be intimidated as a sovereign country. That's a given. Fine. But we don't need, nor should we put up with, our elected officials expanding problems and making them in the first place.

We are an open and peaceful society. THAT comes first. Standing by that principle while refusing to stoop to anything more primal and "un-libertarian" is the best weapon.

In short, being a Switzerland with a big stick is the best course of action.

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I am sympathetic to that sediment...

...many of my libertarian friends espouse such a policy.

That being said, in this instance, in light of the unbridled aggression, and devastation Russia reaped upon Georgia, ambivalence is not acceptable.

Now realize, the consequences have already begun, we confirmed the missile deal with Poland, Georgia and possibly Ukraine will become members of NATO, others in the world will pursue closer relations with the US.

So, at this juncture, should Russia continue to delay its withdrawal, I say G8 and WTO membership is definitely in question.

These are the tools we have to apply, and we must if we do not wish to "Neville Chamberlain" ourselves into a real war, where we don't have to just flash that stick you mentioned, but use it.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Here's the hitch, RW

in light of the unbridled aggression, and devastation Russia reaped upon Georgia, ambivalence is not acceptable.

I simply don't see it as it being as nice and neat to define as you do. In a sense, the conflict reminds me of the fight between the "Orcs" and the "Urukai" in the beginning of the Lord of the Rings "The Two Towers" where they fight over whether to eat the two little captive hobbits. Hardly a situation for the viewer to be taking sides on moral grounds...even if the Urukai's stance was to leave the little hobbits whole and unspoiled.

Naturally, I'm not saying this evil vs. evil scenario is totally accurate in any way but the sense that it's hardly a simple case of evil vs. good operating in an unchained vacuum is clearly lucid and correct.

Russia and Georgia and Separatists are clearly all acting in their own interests with the innocent citizens caught in the cross-fire. None are totally noble or totally evil.

Either or any way you slice it, such aggressive economic response from us in the matter isn't going to solve anything and only risks further unneeded problems. Russia's continued integration and cohesion into the world economy is important and isolating them and, more importantly, their citizens over a matter that is hardly clear enough to warrant any negative consequences to American citizens is not in the best interest of me or any other Americans....or Russians for that matter.

Support for such aggressive action is not grounded in anything valid, just or noble. It's stupid power politics between a few people who have no business putting us in any form of danger or discomfort.

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Welcome back, John

It's posts like this one that really hit home how much I've missed reading your comments! Some I agree with and some I don't. When I do, they are most enjoyable to read; when I don't they often lead to interesting discussion. This is one I agree with, for the most part. Economic sanctions often seem to hurt the citizens of a country alot more than the government. Truly oppressive governments almost seem to want isolation. Look at Burma.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Thanks, SL. :)

But I mean, really. It's not like we're talking about Estonia or something.

If Russia had just, on a whim, invaded an otherwise peaceful Georgia for absolutely no reason other than to perhaps annex them back into the federation, I could understand some clear cut animosity toward them. But that simply isn't the case. Everyone's actions have context wrought by previous myopia and exploding cigars by many actors. There's no good guy here that we should feel compelled to support....there are only victims of gray hubris...and they are not in charge of anything. And I feel for them.

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You do stay true to your politics though.

Many of us don't always act out as consistently. Sometimes circumstances alter our perceptions and conclusions.

Good for you.

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Nice effort John!

I'm enjoying this.

Here's the deal though...

You are basing your opinion on your feelings, you feel like it should be that way, wouldn't it be better if...

And that is not pertinent to how the world works, historically.

Yes, economic pressure is just that, pressure on the government to behave so we in the world mustn't suffer the barbaric consequences of their governments unenlightened actions.

The people will see limitations on there ability to be a part of the world community, and if Russia continues to act this way it will get worse, if they come around, it gets better. If for instance it gets worse, the people wlll then put pressure on the government to change.

It works. It worked with almost all the situations I can think of with just a few exceptions, Cuba... It has worked with Russia in the past, and it will work now.

I would rather be pro active, let them know in unequivocal terms this kind of crap won't be tolerated, and give them a chance to come back to the table, then do nothing but flail our hands around and make pretend it isn't really happening, then getting into a much worse situation later.

Your assertion that we can stand on the sidelines and do nada is quite frankly, nonsense. It is not a geo-political option, not if we have any intention on being around to see democracies flourish. Otherwise Russia will just run rough shot over the world where and when they feel the want. As proven by this most recent act of terror.

It is most certainly in your best interest to act, if you want a free world to do business in, it is also in the Russian peoples best interest.

Reason being, there are two options; we do nothing and Russia goes bad, and then will really have to hurt the Russian people, which no one wants, or we make things clear, they see the light, the world condemnation, and they go straight, and the Russian people prosper.

Let me ask you this Neville, I mean John... ;-)

At what point do you draw a line in the sand? How many deaths, buildings burned, families made homeless, women and children made Husband and Fatherless will it require before your senses come to you, and you will acknowledge we need to do something much worse than economic sanctions?

And you claim there are no good guys/no bad guys is ridiculous. One huge country invaded, burned, bombed, and destroyed the infrastructure of a much smaller burgeoning democracy. Georgia is an Estonia in the making!

You are saying something completely in opposition from what the 3 Presidents of the Baltic countries are saying!

Look at the history!

Sorry for the spotty prose... I'm doing several gigs at once here! Kids, phone, etc. LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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How many deaths indeed?

At what point do you draw a line in the sand? How many deaths, buildings burned, families made homeless, women and children made Husband and Fatherless will it require before your senses come to you, and you will acknowledge we need to do something much worse than economic sanctions?

Leaving aside the strangeness of asking how many deaths it's going to take before we start killing people, if this were what worried you, you'd be focusing on Darfur rather than Georgia.

But that just isn't as sexy as reviving the cold war.

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Please dude

Can we work thru this one real quick before talking about F'ing Darfur!

And I'm saying take "economic" action now, instead of chancing an escalated potential later.

So you're all over the place except on target.

So please, stay focused here...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Six Days

US humiliated, Nato and Europe split, in other words, in the US American political discourse, it was a good very week for McCain.

Six Days That Broke One Country and Reshaped the World Order

The American "train and equip" mission for the Georgian military is six years old. It has been destroyed in as many days. And with it, Georgia's Nato ambitions.

In less than a week, Putin has invaded another country, effectively partitioned Georgia in a lightning campaign, weakened his arch-enemy, President Mikheil Saakashvili, divided the west, and presented a fait accompli. The impact - locally, regionally, and globally - is huge.

Provocative calls by McCain for the US to support and identify with Georgia’s actions – “we are all Georgians” -- constituted repeated, direct interference in the conduct of American foreign policy, complicating efforts to obtain a cease fire and the removal of invading troops.

-- Bush's and McCain's overblown rhetoric may have created unrealistic expectations of US help, despite the fact the US never had any intention of rescuing Georgia.

This week in history, peace took a step backwards. It was a good week for McCain.

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Not all all, RW

You're minimizing my views down to "feelings"??

Come on, now.

This has nothing to do with "should". It's based on what "IS" and what the proper and prudent course of action "IS". The one dealing in "should" and feelings is you. You have ideas on how things "should be" based on your "feelings" of what Georgia and Russia represent to you. Perhaps you don't see it that way.

And that is not pertinent to how the world works, historically.

Sure it is. It's very pertinent. History is full of examples of the folly I'm criticizing as well as the total disregard of what I value. And at nearly each and every turn, the ability for a side to take my route has been a viable option. Sometimes taken, sometimes not. In this case, it's perfectly within our government's ability to choose that route.

Yes, economic pressure is just that, pressure on the government to behave so we in the world mustn't suffer the barbaric consequences of their governments unenlightened actions.

Couple things. That bolded word represents a causal "if, then" that you apply in faith and nothing more. Secondly, you're going in a glass house with the word "unenlightened". And once again, you're unquestioned certainty in how you view the matter precedes all of this.

make pretend it isn't really happening, then getting into a much worse situation later.

Strawman. There's plenty to be done.

Your assertion that we can stand on the sidelines and do nada is quite frankly, nonsense.

\

It's also a strawman.

It is not a geo-political option, not if we have any intention on being around to see democracies flourish. Otherwise Russia will just run rough shot over the world where and when they feel the want.

Slow down. Again, such lucidity on the matter from you. You seem to have it all figured out. I don't agree that it's so simple.

It is most certainly in your best interest to act, if you want a free world to do business in, it is also in the Russian peoples best interest.

And the Russian government as well by extension.

Your options are not the only ones. That's part of the problem I have with your position.

Where do I draw the line in the sand?

First of all, that whole question rests on the premise that you are right about Russia and the turns this affair could take. I don't see it.

Second of all, your drama-laden plea to emotion is simply not enough nor is it accurate enough to justify what you're saying.

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Post Modernist subjectivity ...

Post moderist political thinking = no fixed categories, stable sets of values,
or common sense meanings to be understood in their scholarly
exploration. Liberal approaches do not aid in understanding these types
of situations; there is no individual or social or institutional
structure whose values can impose a meaning or interpretive narrative.

You are certainly a post modernist thinker.


You're minimizing my views down to "feelings"??
Come on, now.

I did not mean it to minimize your view, if it seems like that, I apologize.

This has nothing to do with "should". It's based on what "IS" and what the proper and prudent course of action "IS". The one dealing in "should" and feelings is you. You have ideas on how things "should be" based on your "feelings" of what Georgia and Russia represent to you. Perhaps you don't see it that way.

LOL! Funny we both see one another's that way!

And that is not pertinent to how the world works, historically.
Sure it is. It's very pertinent. History is full of examples of the folly I'm criticizing as well as the total disregard of what I value. And at nearly each and every turn, the ability for a side to take my route has been a viable option. Sometimes taken, sometimes not. In this case, it's perfectly within our government's ability to choose that route.

:-) I meant the relevant historical context of Russian-American experiences.

Yes, economic pressure is just that, pressure on the government to behave so we in the world mustn't suffer the barbaric consequences of their governments unenlightened actions.
Couple things. That bolded word represents a causal "if, then" that you apply in faith and nothing more.

I lost you here? Sorry?

Secondly, you're going in a glass house with the word "unenlightened". And once again, you're unquestioned certainty in how you view the matter precedes all of this.

No, I disagree. I think unprovoked, or to acquiesce for purposes of advancing the dialog, to simply over run a sovereign country, especially taken in light of what we know in this particular instance, is unenlightened. I guess I could choose another adjective, poor, ignorant, etc.

make pretend it isn't really happening, then getting into a much worse situation later.
Strawman.

Well in essence, by doing nothing, what are you doing? Crossing your fingers and hoping for the best?

There's plenty to be done.
Your assertion that we can stand on the sidelines and do nada is quite frankly, nonsense.
It's also a strawman.

Please expand on what you mean.

It is not a geo-political option, not if we have any intention on being around to see democracies flourish. Otherwise Russia will just run rough shot over the world where and when they feel the want.
Slow down. Again, such lucidity on the matter from you. You seem to have it all figured out. I don't agree that it's so simple.

Well, in a time of crisis, you have to choose. You can't sit around talking about straw men and glass houses. I am basing my point of view just like I do everything else in my life. I am looking at whats worked best in the past. Ronald Reagan was by far the most effective POTUS handling the Russians, he would do what I'm suggesting I believe.

It is most certainly in your best interest to act, if you want a free world to do business in, it is also in the Russian peoples best interest.
And the Russian government as well by extension.
Your options are not the only ones. That's part of the problem I have with your position.

Ok granted, but we must make the best choice and defend it.

Where do I draw the line in the sand?
First of all, that whole question rests on the premise that you are right about Russia and the turns this affair could take. I don't see it.
Second of all, your drama-laden plea to emotion is simply not enough nor is it accurate enough to justify what you're saying.

The Russians whole history is filled with aggressive territorial dominance. This just happened, what is there to justify? Why do you discount the rights of the Georgians at the grace of the Russians, I find this a bit strange.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Let me try a different approach

so as to economize on space a bit here because I'm not particularly fond of long winding exchanges:

The real essence of my position and true point of contention between us can be best summed up as follows:

You see a clear lineage of events in which Russia is clearly and solely to blame that requires a swift and decisive and bold American response to repel or hurt Russia economically now so to avoid future, wider confrontation. In short, aggressive action is NEEDED lest things only get worse.

I see a murky chain of events with blame to go around. I'll add (which I haven't thus far) that Russia has been hurt politically by this entire affair. In the end, I no clear reason yet to response beyond diplomatic means for fear of playing a hand that we cannot take back.

In short, the problem I have with your position is the clear and unequivocal meaning to be taken from this event in terms of the nature of an American response. I still do not.

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Ok how's this for my part.

Ok, let me re-phrase what you said in my words...

I see a clear lineage of events in which Russia is infamous for undertaking, and it would behoove us to understand that, and take them into account as we consider how to address their latest act of military belligerence towards a sovereign nation.

I believe that this most recent hostility requires tangible consequences in order to effect an unequivocal understanding on the part of the Russian leadership, that it will not be tolerated by the the governments of free peoples throughout the world.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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OK, RW, now that we have your clear position

we can sink in a little further...one piece at a time:

Paragraph one:

Let's leave aside, for a moment, the obvious fact that Russian "infamous actions" have context...namely feeling threatened by the West.

While I agree that Russia should not have invaded (but then again, who am I to say this?), do you not give any weight to the context that Georgia attacked these two pro-Russian cities, most of whose citizens have Russian citizenship?

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In the recent fighting

Georgia started the larger scale attacks on South Ossetia.
South Ossetian separatist likely started sporadic artillery fire first.
Russia was supposedly in the process of sending in more "peacekeeping" tanks into South Ossetia, before Georgia started its large scale attack on South Ossetia.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Ehhh? Not so sure you got that right... n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I didn't put in chronological order

3: Georgia [did start] the larger scale attacks on South Ossetia.
1: South Ossetian separatist likely started sporadic artillery fire first.
2: Russia was supposedly in the process of sending in more "peacekeeping" tanks into South Ossetia, before Georgia started its large scale attack on South Ossetia.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Frankly, I think precise order is of little consequence here

To dwell on order (not saying you are) is to miss the contextual forest for the tit-for-tat detailed trees.

It's incredibly obvious upon a cursory reading that this is much more complex than a simple Russian invasion. There's been a lot of brewing tension and conflict in the zone for quite a while. And avoidable and questionable developments along the way have only pushed toward this present reality instead of avoiding it.

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Ok

!st - Let me address the "threatened by the west" comment.

Were they threatened when they invaded Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc etc etc

No, we were threatened!

Please document your idea that, "Georgia attacked these two pro-Russian cities, most of whose citizens have Russian citizenship".
Then we can tackle that. Why waste our effort on it until it is determined to be true?

Here is the start of some evidence to the contrary.

And thaks for being willing to talk this through, this is a first for me since I've come over to SC.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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RW, let's stay on topic

Your rhetorical question and answer shouldn't even be asked.

You simply mirror the very attitude you are now condemning. I do not say this defense of the USSR....but merely as explanatory aides for context. Being threatened is in the eye of the beholder. Surely it can be easily plausible for you to understand the USSR position vis a vis the West during WW2.

Again, all action has context.

Let's not waste time on that. Please.

As for your real question,

Start here . Granted, it's a translated from Russian but it claims some 95% of South Ossetia's residents have Russian citizenship.

From a Reuters :

South Ossetia, which fought to break free from Georgian rule in 1991-92, maintains close ties with its Russian North Ossetia. Most of South Ossetia’s 70,000 people hold Russian citizenship, entitling them to Russian state benefits.

South Ossetia’s affinity with Russia has been a thorn in the side of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who took power in a 2006 grassroots revolution.

A look at the Wiki entry gives a great deal of historical background along with information detailing S. Ossetia's long standing conflict and tension with Georgia over its pro-Russian ties and autonomous actions.

As for who shot first and the details, listen, nobody really knows for sure. But Russia did claim 15 Russian peacekeepers were killed in the attacks. Either way, it doesn't take much imagination to see that a cursory look at who the actors here shows that this is not simply a case of Russian aggression. By that, I mean, as I said earlier, that The Russians, the Separatists and the Georgian government all have some blood on their hands.

Again, all action has context.

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So what exactly are you asking me? Sorry?

As the international community moves towards stronger condemnation of the Russian aggression, the Georgian Government, it is true, was also under criticism for its alleged military attack on South Ossetia.

It does appear like the Georgian government displayed political immaturity by falling into the Russian trap.

The context of that decision should be understood. As I understand it, for months the Georgian forces inside South Ossetia, as well as those forces across the de facto border, had been systematically been attacked using artillery and other means.

So, the obvious aim of this was to draw Georgia into an open military confrontation with Russia.

The timeliness of the cyber war and the subsequent military invasion is conspicuous evidence of the Russians premeditated intent.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That may be possible

But again, RW, all action has context. There's a lot going on there...and there has been for a long time.

What were these Georgian forces doing there in the first place? Where did they get their weapons? Why the tension? We could just keep going back and back and back.

And the more you do that, the more the 24 hour news cycle soundbyte assessment of the matter seems simplistic and lacking.

Again, my insistence on context and blurring of simplistic narratives are not to defend Russia but rather to defend practically no one and show how so much myopic junk thinking from many actors has brought this about.

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Ok, so where are we going if we're not allowed...

...to make any assumptions of fact based on the info we have at the moment and therefore come to some, even if interim, fruition?

This is why all the post modern ideology makes me ill.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Why so anxious to take action?

The information is plenty and better conclusions to be drawn are there.

Assumptions don't work for me...especially at this juncture and with so little at stake for the risks involved. We are still in a diplomatic phase. No need to do more than bring tensions down.

What the heck is the urgency to "do something" RIGHT NOW?

We have a cease-fire...no thanks to our government. We got pissed off and tense parties involved trying to sort this out. Russia has suffered politically already..while Georgia hasn't quite enough in my opinion.

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Well here we disgree as well...

John,

As nice a guy as you are, if someone broke into your house and destroyed your sh*t...

Would you want to take action of just sit back and consider the perp's side of the story?

And after you had him arrested and he was in custody, would you want to just let him walk? Or would after finding out this assh*le had been doing this crap for years, and the results were tragic! Would you at least want to put the guy on probation?

Remember, he hasn't even apologized or admitted he was wrong? He is defiant and threatening to do it again to your neighbor! (Poland)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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not the same.

in any way.

You simply cannot compare individual analogies to these matters.

It doesn't work....at all.

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Yes, true, but....

Russia took over their country, for the pretext of our talk, who cares if little Georgia lobbed a few shells back at the Russians, it was an auspicious display of destruction, that killed and mamed innocent democratic peoples!?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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mamed innocent democratic

mamed innocent democratic peoples!?

Some things shouldn't be placed on pedastals

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Please, RW

such faux cries for "democratic peoples" get you nowhere with me. That is not the paradigm I operate in. I mean really, great for Georgia if it's making democratic progress. Fine. But that fact by itself is irrelevant to understanding the nature of this conflict as it pertains to us.

This is about political strife between Russia and Georgia and S. Ossetia and many other of Russia's former blocs.

That is the central issue here. Democracy per se has nothing to do with it. Georgia could be as autocratic as Russia and the problem would still be there.

Georgia's burgeoning democratic credentials are not the issue. Georgia's diplomatic relations with Russia and it's independent territory that borders Russia are.

PS: reading into comment as hostile or uncaring toward democratic peoples would be totally inaccurate and missing the point.

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You are not staying on point...

First, with all due respect, I think I've tried hard to accommodate your perimeters for this dialog. But with all due respect I feel like you're setting the terms of the conversation as to whats acceptable and whats not. You deserve no such benefit of preeminence than I.

Right?

The relative value of information is what is meaningful, and the petition of that material in support of a position is what is of esteem.

What is your position, and how do you definitively defend it,

or,

what is it we endeavor to understand,

these are the tasks of which we aspire.

You are essentially saying its a big mix and everyone is to blame.

I mean what is that?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I'm kinda following your lead

I am also trying to accommodate your parameters.

I've given my views on the matter and I think my general view is easy to understand as I see it myself.

Trust me, I understand your POV. I get it all too well. Inside and out and I can mimic your arguments (and those of others who think like you) to a T without misrepresenting any part of it. I understand the rationale and the underlying principles that underlie the whole POV. But, much like with socialistic arguments from the Left, whose points and seductions and selective "facts" I also understand, they simply fall apart to me. Perhaps my analysis is flawed. Perhaps I give weight to things that don't change that overall truth. Perhaps. I don't know.

The reason I don't choose to go much further is because it's too easy to misconstrue my views and attach intent and ancillary views to them that are actually false.

Ever get accused of being greedy and corporate shill and against the poor for being in favor of freer markets even though you know and I know that these connections of malicious intent to your views are not only unfair but utterly and totally preposterous and nonsensical? Yeah, you know what I mean. ;)

Well, conservatives do the same thing when they are the other side of the argument on matters like this. And it's a little late to get into that. I'm not in the mood to defend myself from baseless criticism that has no place in the discussion.

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LOL! ...Ok Bud!

Maybe we've run it thru for tonight!

Hey, did you watch the deal tonight with Obama and McCain? It's on right now on Fox I think...(Now is 11:30pm PST)

What state do you live in?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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OK. :)

No, didn't watch. I find the daily grind of the campaign to be boring, dull and dim. I get the same reaction to it as when I see my GF watching "The Hills" or some other reality TV junk.

And when I do watch, it's more for comic relief.

I'm in PA.

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Ya PA...

I love Pittsburgh! People don't get how cool that town is!

I'm in Santa Barbara, CA.

Give me the basic set of facts...age, education, work, political aff., etc.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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OK. But then I'm signing off for the night. :)

Age: 35
Highest Ed: International MBA
Work: Self employed
Pol: Independent (never been D or R) but I cheer for the LP for fun.

you?

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And so you should friend, sleep well. n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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John...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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One last thing, RW

let's keep a few things in mind:

Russia doesn't want to feel encircled by anti-Russian countries. Understandable. After all, we had a hissy fit when the USSR put missiles in Cuba.

My guess is that Russia's government, in reality...like our government..., isn't so much concerned with democracy as it is with security.

So, while it may seem noble and tough on our part to help these small countries join NATO, in doing so, we embolden these countries to NOT make the proper efforts to have healthy and peaceful relations with Moscow.

PS: You want to talk about not helping matters, how do you think our installing a missile defense in Poland plays in the middle of all this?? How would you feel as a Russian getting biased TV coverage on it?

Like I've said, every action has context. We have the ability to quell these matters and engage Russia in a healthy manner. This crap doesn't help us to that end. NOT AT ALL.

Keep that in mind.

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Post Modernist Subjectivity probably should rule the day...

I've been told that only a Sith deals in absolutes.

The Russians whole history is filled with aggressive territorial dominance.

Slight hyperbole, in WWI Russia's Czar came to the aid of Russia's Slav friends all because some little known area of Europe wanted sovereignty from a larger "occupier."

At best for Russia, their recent actions are like that in of a Twilight Zone , episode #22, The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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You're talking to the wrong guy...

from that point go forward, or rewind, pretty ugly!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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welcome back!

Hey John, good to hear from you. The libertarians have been a bit silent over the past few weeks, and I think I've gotten myself labeled as a "left wing ideolog". To bad I'll be out of town for the next week or so.

 

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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'sUp, my friend

good to hear from you too.

Who the hell would call you a left-wing ideologue?

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Our newest member

RW said that while most of us are not Democrats we are left-wing ideologues .

Granted lefties are the plurality (if not majority here) during the hiatuses/spotty posting of Bird Dog, Ender, and GoRight, I wouldn't agree that we're "ideologues". There was even a time when I thought you were the biggest jerk this side of the Mississippi, but times change once you "know" people on here.

Three cheers for seeing things from another point of view!

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Cheers to that!

(...this side of the Mississippi, really? Yikes.) ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That one "Left Wing Ideolog" post...

...sure got a few folks attention.

Don't take it to personally. ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Well, RW

I only recognize one...maybe two...true Left Wing Ideologues on this site. Most of the others are a bit more complex.

For starters, there's a difference between Modern Liberals and Social Democrats....and then even in each, things very greatly. Some are hostile, others are good natured about it.

It's hard to pigeon-hole some people.

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Its true....

...I have enough trouble keeping up on my Conservative variants, I should brush up on my Liberal factions no doubt. LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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:)

There was even a time when I thought you were the biggest jerk this side of the Mississippi

After a long day, that actually gave me a smile and chuckle. ;)

Well, I always liked you...even when you thought I was a jerk. :P

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What happened to the Truman/Kennedy kind of democrats?

..You know, the kind you could trust & respect.

Just kidding! ;-)

But really, it seems all the Democrats now days are really spun out?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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what happened to them?

I think a lot of them evolved into neocons

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Yes some surely did... or so I've read everywhere. ;-) n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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What more could we do to Russia?

I was a surprized a bit by the aggressive hyperbole coming from many pundits and politicians, but I have to admit that this is now looking like a pretty clear-cut case of aggression on Russia's part.

This got me thinking of what we could do to Russia, aside from shooting down their bombers or sinking warships in Georgian waters...

Unfortunately, there isn't much that we hadn't done already...

  • Expand NATO right up to Russia's borders . [update: Even providing military aid to countries that hold unreasonable positions on territorial disputes stretching back to the breakup of the USSR (Georgia)]
  • Place anti-ballistic missile batteries in their backyard (Poland)
  • Bomb one of their friends (Serbia) and eventually support the independence of a minority enclave there (Kosovo)
  • Invade a country that provided Russia with business opportunities .

John McCain was already planning to kick Russia out of the G8 .

There really isn't anything left for us to do, short of a military attack on Russia.

The sad thing is that everyone will interpret Russia's invasion of Georgia in light of their pre-concieved notions: to those who believe that peace is achieved by dominating all others, the invasion will be justification for previous actions that weakenwd Russia. For those who believe that peace is achieved by allowing others to feel secure, Russia's behavior will be validation that we are reaping the insecurity that we have sown.

One thing that we should all be able to agree on is that Russia's aggression is related to their high oil revenues -- much of which is due to our decades of refusing to stop wasting petroleum. Go figure.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Bush has provided no leadership on cybersecurity

Here's the obligatory jab at Bush...

 Cyberattacks on Georgian Web Sites Are Reigniting a Washington Debate :

Among the group's conclusions was that because no
government entity is responsible for establishing foreign policy on
cyberwarfare, it isn't getting done, said O. Sami Saydjari, president
of the Cyber Defense Agency, a consulting firm.

"Everyone was, in an unspoken way, looking forward to
the next presidency to try to resolve the ownership issue," he said,
noting that he had attended a similar meeting about five years ago.

Our vulnerability to cyberattacks has been well-known for many years, and cyberattacks are a pretty obvious strategy for terrorist groups...yet Bush hasn't even bothered to assign anyone the job of figuring out to approach this issue [update: at least as a foreign policy issue]

FWIW, here's an interesting article from 2002 about America's vulnerability as a "system of sytems "

 

 

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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It's a good point...

...I don't know if anyone has really mastered that though have they?

I do remember, a couple years ago maybe, that they created a new Federal Bureau for cyber warfare, do you remember something like that?

Found it, coincidently they suspended it today

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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RW I was trying to get your goat; I failed

After your earlier complaint about how "everything is about Bush" I thought this would make you blow your top. I guess I was wrong.

Anyway, as I thought about this topic some more while driving to the beach, I felt certain that this comment would get shot down. I'm glad you went easy.

For cybersecurity, it's probably not all that important to have the diplomatic issues all figured out ahead of time: it's much more important to have the technology and infrastructure to defend yourself when it's needed. The diplomatic issues can probably be figured out as they emerge.

Interesting article, I like the term "soverign options" -- which I assume means an assault on another country.

its mission is "To secure our nation by employing world-class cyberspace capabilities to control cyberspace, create integrated global effects, and deliver sovereign options." 

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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For the foreign policy junkies

Here's a good synopsis of the Georgia/Russia conflict to date and a concise strategic analysis of the situation.

An excerpt

. . . . He did not want to confront NATO directly, but he did want to confront and defeat a power that was closely aligned with the United States, had U.S. support, aid and advisers and was widely seen as being under American protection. Georgia was the perfect choice.

By invading Georgia as Russia did (competently if not brilliantly), Putin re-established the credibility of the Russian army. But far more importantly, by doing this Putin revealed an open secret: While the United States is tied down in the Middle East, American guarantees have no value. This lesson is not for American consumption. It is something that, from the Russian point of view, the Ukrainians, the Balts and the Central Asians need to digest. Indeed, it is a lesson Putin wants to transmit to Poland and the Czech Republic as well. The United States wants to place ballistic missile defense installations in those countries, and the Russians want them to understand that allowing this to happen increases their risk, not their security.

The Russians knew the United States would denounce their attack. This actually plays into Russian hands. The more vocal senior leaders are, the greater the contrast with their inaction, and the Russians wanted to drive home the idea that American guarantees are empty talk.

The Russians also know something else that is of vital importance: For the United States, the Middle East is far more important than the Caucasus, and Iran is particularly important. The United States wants the Russians to participate in sanctions against Iran. Even more importantly, they do not want the Russians to sell weapons to Iran, particularly the highly effective S-300 air defense system. Georgia is a marginal issue to the United States; Iran is a central issue. The Russians are in a position to pose serious problems for the United States not only in Iran, but also with weapons sales to other countries, like Syria.

Therefore, the United States has a problem — it either must reorient its strategy away from the Middle East and toward the Caucasus, or it has to seriously limit its response to Georgia to avoid a Russian counter in Iran. Even if the United States had an appetite for another war in Georgia at this time, it would have to calculate the Russian response in Iran — and possibly in Afghanistan (even though Moscow’s interests there are currently aligned with those of Washington).

In other words, the Russians have backed the Americans into a corner. The Europeans, who for the most part lack expeditionary militaries and are dependent upon Russian energy exports, have even fewer options. If nothing else happens, the Russians will have demonstrated that they have resumed their role as a regional power. Russia is not a global power by any means, but a significant regional power with lots of nuclear weapons and an economy that isn’t all too shabby at the moment. It has also compelled every state on the Russian periphery to re-evaluate its position relative to Moscow.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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"Putin deliberately destroys reputation of the Russia..."

I am seriously considering that he must have been paid to be that stupid to destroy Russia’s image to such a great degree,"

"Saakashvili Lashes Out at West’s ‘Muted Reaction’"
Saakashvili really should lash out at himself for being impatient and falling into a trap that Saakashvili seeminingly claims to have seen all along.

[Russia] started to bring in lots of military specialists, reconnaissance, they brought in paratroopers.

Again we screamed to the world Stop It.

Logical use of Propaganda to Saakashvili: Wait until Russia show its hand fully next time.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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One of those areas we tend to agree, John.

I would like to see the US be a damn sight less interventionist in the world. Sure there are times when we will have to head off matters that are spiralling out of control, but that's rare. It certainly doesn't happen every decade (which is what we average in terms of wars). It's really not our place to play world cop, nor is it in our best interest. It does allow us to dictate events to some degree but the unintended consequences are killers.

Time to adopt a policy of "We'll be over here minding our own business so long as you don't screw with us, thanks."

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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