just mocking the 4 millionth "why isn't everything on daily kos exactly the way I think it should be" diary.
Atrios | Homepage | 07.09.06 - 10:10 am
I may be wrong, but I think Atrios was aiming not at markos but at a few recent diaries slamming the dailykos community (including the infamous one a few days ago) for not being what they want it to be. Given the date of Atrios' post, I'm thinking it was in response specifically to that diary. Then again, I can't purport to read Atrios' mind, or anyone else's for that matter. It seems he's being deliberately vague for a reason.
On a related note: that whole "kossaks are like rabid sheep" meme has highlighted what I think is one of the most interesting mixed signals (but not contradictions) of dailykos - an open community under the ownership of one person. People want to prove that they're unfettered and the community is us-driven, but then they have to resolve that with the inability to write CT diaries, or the inability to call out other users, etc. Not that these latter things are good (god, no), but like I said, there's a mixed signal there that remains partially unresolved if only because it keeps getting battered from oblique angles - that is, when it comes up in relation to a particular issue ("Why can't I reveal X about member Y? Does kos hate free speech? You all are rabid sheep!")
I think your analogy in the comments is best: a people-powered movement is like gas in the car, but don't forget who owns the car. It'd also help for people to remember that markos' decisions vis-a-vis the blogs are nearly always administrative, not ideological. I know I've had my big disagreements with him, and I'm still around.
Food for thought, here. Lemme let it simmer a bit, and I'll get back to you.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Atrios offers that "context"... but by saying it's 4 million contexts, he abstracts it the hard way, generalizing. I'm willing to go with the generalization because this whole issue did not just occur to me because of his post, and it invokes the issue of ownership which as you point is always an issue, even unstated.
I find it interesting that someone I disagree with on countless policy issues, such as trevino, has an instict by which communities own themselves, whereas someone like Atrios does not have that instinct. Although kos or atrios can of course point out that trevino may have that instict but exerts control from a personal level as well (i.e. no cussing at trevino-blogs)... so it's all still quite muddy.
The other thing is that I take an embodied cognitive view of concepts like "property" (or any concept) rather than a metaphysical one. These ideas are not programs, exactly, the mind no mere computer (at least, not a mere turing machine), but still ideas are some sort of physical manifestation of a physical brain, they are, therefore tools, and subject to break down in some circumstances which reach beyond their "specifications", to use a technical analogy.
Communities defy property in this way. Some very high percentage of dkos users will absolutely say that kos owns dkos, that it's his blog, and do so based on property right... and yet, do they conclude that Eschaton is blogger.com's, the same property mechanics is present. Or for dkos, is the blog actually the property of his colocated host provider? They own the pipes... this reasoning is reductio ad absurdam because we start to realize we are talking about control of "choke points"... does the person holding a crucial commodity OWN the whole? No, they have influence, they have POWER, but it does not follow from an idealize abstraction like property, but from much more mundane (and potentially terrible) struggles which, in fact, are seen in political struggle.
btw, I wrote this before diving in and reading the Atrios comments, which is a more rare read for me than Atrios himself, even.
the "real" context... why would Atrios hide it if that were the case, I saw many commenters hint it may have been in response to MSOC's diary, and at least one generalizing to MSOC or Booman... why would Atrios hide that.
Even if that "set him off" I suppose he generalized it honestly in that... it really does reflect his larger sentiment.
Company towns belong to the company in Atrios' framework.
Yea, I know. There have been "issues" at a certain blog or two that some of us see from time to time.
referring to DKos specifically, Markos says the blog isn't his anymore. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. IMO if he doesn't own it, he's still a benevolent unitary executive behind it.
An example that hits home here at Swords Crossed squared....I still read Tacitus. I've noted that it's been much less active than it had after Josh slipped out of Redstate. But today (and actually the last couple of days), he posts a thread and already it's traffic is 10X what it had been since he slipped away from Tacitus. My point being that some people have a dynamic that attracts others to want to converse.
Markos is one of them. You may not like him. You may not agree with him. But he does keep the pot bubbling.
Sure, some of the community wants to be the star. They aren't. If they were that good, they'd have their own blog and be able to quit their job and sell border ads.
What freedom do I have, as a user, to quote things I write at dkos? Since markos owns the blog itself, and all material on there is ostensibly under copyright, could I be sued if I collected my diaries into a book?
I've wondered about this, actually - the notion of property in a community forum is not something I have any experience with, legal or otherwise.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
but it's worth emphasizing that many of the more popular dKos posters have built thriving blogs of their own. Sure they don't get the traffic of dKos, but nobody does, and frankly I think that's partially because of Kos being in the right place at the right time as much as Markos' ability to keep the pot bubbling.
Tac's diary got far fewer comments on RS, a site with 20x more traffic, even though it's been sitting on top of the rec list for days. I think people are just more likely to argue than agree -- something that bodes well for SC =)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
If I'm not mistaken, it has to read "unless otherwise specified" because you could, if you chose to, assert your copyright to what you post there.
Of course, given things as I suppopse them to be at DKOS, anyone who did that would find himself no longer welcome to post-unless he arranged it in advance with Kos.
Ultimately, Markos owns the blog because he can just say I will stop comments, or ban anyone or prevent conspiracy nuts to spread innuendos, and also get paid through ads, and legally owns it as a profit oriented corporation, etc.
However, we are using his blog for free to organize, influence CW, talk to each other and build a community. Kudos for Markos that he has not really wield an iron hand.
An idea to have a real community blog---build a blog owned by a "community" and the community will nominate administrators and front pagers every year, be non profit with all ads going to the service of the site and have by-laws voted by the community.
markos cannot really turn off diaries and comments, because it would affect his living.
is cutting of his nose to spite his face really an option?
should it be?
he owns some servers. His service company (that provides the bandwidth, the pipes people access dkos through) can also shut off comments and all access, but they do not own dkos.
Atrios doesn't even own his own servers, they belong to blogger.com.
my real point is not to say that markos does or does not own that blog, but that the concept of "ownership" does not really apply to community or to their homes.
It applies to specific questions... i.e. who owns the server, who owns the generator providing emergency power, who owns the essays, who owns the "community".
The blogosphere is already pretty crowded, but I like the idea of successful bloggers branching off into smaller, more independent, and more idiosyncratic units like you did with MLW. Instead of a handful of increasingly crowded communities, smaller and more content-specific communities will be linked together, increasing people's ability to get the information they want (if I want info on Iran, I go to Cole; if I want info on proto-Fascism, I go to Neiwert; if I want to watch fun movies, I go to C&L, etc.) and creating a network of specialized blogs, friendly communities, etc.
O brave new world that has such people in't!
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Comments :
Good topic.
From the comments:
I may be wrong, but I think Atrios was aiming not at markos but at a few recent diaries slamming the dailykos community (including the infamous one a few days ago) for not being what they want it to be. Given the date of Atrios' post, I'm thinking it was in response specifically to that diary. Then again, I can't purport to read Atrios' mind, or anyone else's for that matter. It seems he's being deliberately vague for a reason.
On a related note: that whole "kossaks are like rabid sheep" meme has highlighted what I think is one of the most interesting mixed signals (but not contradictions) of dailykos - an open community under the ownership of one person. People want to prove that they're unfettered and the community is us-driven, but then they have to resolve that with the inability to write CT diaries, or the inability to call out other users, etc. Not that these latter things are good (god, no), but like I said, there's a mixed signal there that remains partially unresolved if only because it keeps getting battered from oblique angles - that is, when it comes up in relation to a particular issue ("Why can't I reveal X about member Y? Does kos hate free speech? You all are rabid sheep!")
I think your analogy in the comments is best: a people-powered movement is like gas in the car, but don't forget who owns the car. It'd also help for people to remember that markos' decisions vis-a-vis the blogs are nearly always administrative, not ideological. I know I've had my big disagreements
with him, and I'm still around.
Food for thought, here. Lemme let it simmer a bit, and I'll get back to you.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
the context
Atrios offers that "context"... but by saying it's 4 million contexts, he abstracts it the hard way, generalizing. I'm willing to go with the generalization because this whole issue did not just occur to me because of his post, and it invokes the issue of ownership which as you point is always an issue, even unstated.
I find it interesting that someone I disagree with on countless policy issues, such as trevino, has an instict by which communities own themselves, whereas someone like Atrios does not have that instinct. Although kos or atrios can of course point out that trevino may have that instict but exerts control from a personal level as well (i.e. no cussing at trevino-blogs)... so it's all still quite muddy.
The other thing is that I take an embodied cognitive view of concepts like "property" (or any concept) rather than a metaphysical one. These ideas are not programs, exactly, the mind no mere computer (at least, not a mere turing machine), but still ideas are some sort of physical manifestation of a physical brain, they are, therefore tools, and subject to break down in some circumstances which reach beyond their "specifications", to use a technical analogy.
Communities defy property in this way. Some very high percentage of dkos users will absolutely say that kos owns dkos, that it's his blog, and do so based on property right... and yet, do they conclude that Eschaton is blogger.com's, the same property mechanics is present. Or for dkos, is the blog actually the property of his colocated host provider? They own the pipes... this reasoning is reductio ad absurdam because we start to realize we are talking about control of "choke points"... does the person holding a crucial commodity OWN the whole? No, they have influence, they have POWER, but it does not follow from an idealize abstraction like property, but from much more mundane (and potentially terrible) struggles which, in fact, are seen in political struggle.
btw, I wrote this before diving in and reading the Atrios comments, which is a more rare read for me than Atrios himself, even.
and oh yeah
the "real" context... why would Atrios hide it if that were the case, I saw many commenters hint it may have been in response to MSOC's diary, and at least one generalizing to MSOC or Booman... why would Atrios hide that.
Even if that "set him off" I suppose he generalized it honestly in that... it really does reflect his larger sentiment.
Company towns belong to the company in Atrios' framework.
I'm wondering where this one came from....
Yea, I know. There have been "issues" at a certain blog or two that some of us see from time to time.
referring to DKos specifically, Markos says the blog isn't his anymore. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. IMO if he doesn't own it, he's still a benevolent unitary executive behind it.
An example that hits home here at Swords Crossed squared....I still read Tacitus. I've noted that it's been much less active than it had after Josh slipped out of Redstate. But today (and actually the last couple of days), he posts a thread and already it's traffic is 10X what it had been since he slipped away from Tacitus. My point being that some people have a dynamic that attracts others to want to converse.
Markos is one of them. You may not like him. You may not agree with him. But he does keep the pot bubbling.
Sure, some of the community wants to be the star. They aren't. If they were that good, they'd have their own blog and be able to quit their job and sell border ads.
Question, on that:
What freedom do I have, as a user, to quote things I write at dkos? Since markos owns the blog itself, and all material on there is ostensibly under copyright, could I be sued if I collected my diaries into a book?
I've wondered about this, actually - the notion of property in a community forum is not something I have any experience with, legal or otherwise.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Not disagreeing with you
but it's worth emphasizing that many of the more popular dKos posters have built thriving blogs of their own. Sure they don't get the traffic of dKos, but nobody does, and frankly I think that's partially because of Kos being in the right place at the right time as much as Markos' ability to keep the pot bubbling.
Tac's diary got far fewer comments on RS, a site with 20x more traffic, even though it's been sitting on top of the rec list for days. I think people are just more likely to argue than agree -- something that bodes well for SC =)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
You hold the prime copyright in what you write, I believe...
_You_ immediately "own" the copyright to everything you write, unless you sign it away somehow.
If you read his copyright notice, it reads:
"© Kos Media, LLC
Site content may be used for any purpose without
explicit permission unless otherwise specified."
If I'm not mistaken, it has to read "unless otherwise specified" because you could, if you chose to, assert your copyright to what you post there.
Of course, given things as I suppopse them to be at DKOS, anyone who did that would find himself no longer welcome to post-unless he arranged it in advance with Kos.
And some of us have actually done just that.
Rage, rage against the Lying of the Right
Markos owns the blog.......
Ultimately, Markos owns the blog because he can just say I will stop comments, or ban anyone or prevent conspiracy nuts to spread innuendos, and also get paid through ads, and legally owns it as a profit oriented corporation, etc.
However, we are using his blog for free to organize, influence CW, talk to each other and build a community. Kudos for Markos that he has not really wield an iron hand.
An idea to have a real community blog---build a blog owned by a "community" and the community will nominate administrators and front pagers every year, be non profit with all ads going to the service of the site and have by-laws voted by the community.
Welcome MSOC!
and congrats on MLW's 1 year birthday.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Welcome indeed
qui tacet consentire
this speaks to my point about influence
markos cannot really turn off diaries and comments, because it would affect his living.
is cutting of his nose to spite his face really an option?
should it be?
he owns some servers. His service company (that provides the bandwidth, the pipes people access dkos through) can also shut off comments and all access, but they do not own dkos.
Atrios doesn't even own his own servers, they belong to blogger.com.
my real point is not to say that markos does or does not own that blog, but that the concept of "ownership" does not really apply to community or to their homes.
It applies to specific questions... i.e. who owns the server, who owns the generator providing emergency power, who owns the essays, who owns the "community".
Would that more people did.
The blogosphere is already pretty crowded, but I like the idea of successful bloggers branching off into smaller, more independent, and more idiosyncratic units like you did with MLW. Instead of a handful of increasingly crowded communities, smaller and more content-specific communities will be linked together, increasing people's ability to get the information they want (if I want info on Iran, I go to Cole; if I want info on proto-Fascism, I go to Neiwert; if I want to watch fun movies, I go to C&L, etc.) and creating a network of specialized blogs, friendly communities, etc.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce