Tuesday Open Thread

It seems Joe Biden will be hedging his bets in the upcoming election. Biden will continue to run for US Senate while simultaneously running for Vice President. In the even that Obama/Biden wins the election, Biden will be sworn-in (Biden is a shoo-in to win the Senate race in Delaware) and then resign so that a replacement can be appointed. The Governor is also up for election in Delaware, so if a Republican wins, expect the current Democratic governor to make the appointment as one of her last acts in office.

North Korea is a bit upset about the US's refusal to remove the totalitarian state from its list of terrorism sponsors. The Foreign Ministry says that the work on the Yongbyon nuclear complex has been restarted in light of this refusal; they claim that the delisting was part of the previously negotiated agreement.

In continuing Ohio ballot access news, the Ohio Green Party has filed suit to be a ballot-qualified party in the upcoming election. The Libertarian and Socialist parties have already "qualified" in this fashion.

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Texas students pack bookbags; teachers pack heat

"Along with normal first-day jitters and excitement, students in this tiny district started school Monday wondering which teachers might be toting firearms...Several parents said they had no idea that employees of the K-12 school were allowed to carry concealed guns on campus until recent publicity about the school board's policy, approved quietly last fall. They said they were upset that the rural community near the Oklahoma border had not been able to give input."

Ya know...if people are worried about people bringing weapons into schools, I'd really prefer metal detectors & guards at the doors just like we have in Federal buildings. I support people having concealed weapons permits but I don't think teaching in a school is a valid reason for one.

Here's a case where one side has successfully whipped up panic. How often do school attacks happen? Rarely. Supporters would say even one is too many and arming the populace will deter that. Me, I say your wanting to go back to the days of the wild west is not appropriate civilized behavior. I want civilization to go forward, not fall back to the lowest common denominator.

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Meh

The only thing I find a bit below board (heh) was that the school board didn't publicize this and get input from the parents.

I don't mind anyone carrying a weapon in a school provided they are trained in the safety and proper use of the weapon.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I have a problem with anyone

who wants to put firearms in direct proximity to my children. In fact that's a very good way to provoke a most uncivilized and brutal parental instinct in me.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Contact your local school board

Let them know you don't like it.

If they go ahead and do it anyway, be sure to let them know you'll either be working to remove them from office or will be homeschooling your child or changing schools.

Is there some sort of constitutional prohibition on firearms in schools? I highly doubt it, so you're going to have to live with it if your local school decides to implement such a policy.

Can you tell I don't have kids? I do have a ferret, though, of whom I'm very protective.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Suspected Hindu hard-liners set fire Monday to an orphanage run

by Christian missionaries in eastern India, killing one woman and seriously injuring a priest, police said.

Throw another log on the fire. Move over Islam, now you have Hindu's to keep you company.

While I think giving minority religions the same rights as majority religions would enable everyone to practice freely, all too many people out there only want freedom for their own views and won't give others the same capability. We aren't that far removed though. Christians are doing that here in the US. They are still bombing the occasional Planned Parenthood and threatening & restricting the staffs & doctors all in the name of their religious convictions.

Same thing in my mind.

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hindufascism? -nt.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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John McCain must explain his ties to felon Jim Hensley

As conservative bloggers and mainstream media sources work overtime to try and force Barack Obama to explain his relationship with former Weatherman Bill Ayers, John McCain still has questions to answer about his own relationship with a criminal. The criminal in question is McCain's father-in-law, the late Jim Hensley. At the time of his death in 2000, Hensley was one of the richest men in Arizona and owner of one of the largest Anheuser-Bush Distributorships in the nation:

"Jim Hensley vs. Bill Ayers

Felony Convictions: Hensley 1, Ayers 0.

Comment: In 1948, Hensley was given a six-month suspended sentence for falsifying liquor records to conceal illegal distribution of whiskey against post-war rationing regulations. Ayers has never been convicted of a felony.

Connections with Organized Crime: Hensley 2. Ayers 0.

Comment: Hensley and his brother were the owners of Ruidoso Downs racetrack, along with "silent partner" Clarence "Teak" Baldwin who had been banned from any ownership role due to illegal bookmaking activities. Long-time business associate Kemper Marley, Sr. was also connected with organized crime.

Illegally Acquired Liquor Licenses: Hensley 1, Ayers 0.

Comments: Hensley acquired a liquor license in Arizona despite the fact that he was not allowed to have one due to being a felon.

Divorces: Hensley 1, Ayers 0.

Comments: Like his son-in-law, Hensley divorced his first wife after having an affair and remarrying. Ayers has been married to Bernardine Dohrn for nearly 40 years.

Abandoned Children: Hensley 1, Ayers -1

Comments: Hensley abandoned his first child, Kathleen Portalski. Ayers and Dohrn raised two of their own children and adopted a third.

As anyone can see from the plain facts, Jim Hensley was far more dangerous man than Ayers has ever been, and profited wildly from his illicit activities. It is time for John McCain to stand up and explain his ties with the felon Jim Hensley."

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What you left out

"Killings Connected With: Hensley 21,000, Ayers 4.
Comment: While neither Hensley nor Ayers have personally murdered anyone, both were heavily involved with organizations that caused the deaths of others. For Ayers, that organization was the Weatherman. For Hensley that organization was Anheuser-Busch. In 2007, Arizona reported more than 700 alcohol-related deaths. Conservatively putting the average number of alcohol-related deaths in Arizona at 400, Hensley has been responsible for the deaths of more than 20,000 Arizonans. And while Budweiser cannot be blamed for each death, it is clearly a gateway drug to harder types of alcohol, thus culpability is Hensley's."
By this logic we should bring back prohibition ( actually I wouldn't be against that good luck getting Americans behind you on that one. I am pretty sure most Americans don't equate beer manufacturers with terrorist organization. Oh and good luck getting people to care about what illegal activities McCain's father - in - law was doing 60 years ago.

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The way I see it

Neither Jim Hensley or Bill Ayers are running for office.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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See, this is just the kind of....

....nonsense I get so jacked up about with you liberals?

A guy illegally having a liquor license is somehow as awful as a guy setting bombs in government buildings? Hmmm?

The one thing you were right about is Ayers should have been executed or sat his a** in a 4x6' cell for the last 30 years for killing inicent police officers who just got up and went to work that day, and punk a** bit*h killed them!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Of course

at the time said government was intent on murdering millions in south america and south east asia. There are circumstances under which I suspect you support insurrection, the only issue is you think the atrocities of the 60s don't merit. Ayers apparently disagreed.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Tlaloc, even if one disagrees with...

...the war in Vietnam, I do not believe blowing up government buildings with innocent people inside was right.

It is appalling to hear that you apparently do?

And yes, he was responsible for the deaths of several police officers he didn't even know, he should have been put away for life at a minimum.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Are you going to argue

that there is never cause to rise up against one's government?

I'm guessing that's not a place you want to go since it brands all our founding fathers as nothing but terrorists deserving death sentences.

That being the case all we are doing is haggling over what crimes by a government are bad enough to warrant violence. Why is it lowering the tarriff on tea justifies killing when burning down a vietnamese village (or fifty) doesn't?

The US government did much worse in the 60s than the brits even imagined doing to their colonies in america. (Now granted if the brits had had the ability to carpet bomb and poison large swaths of land with "defoliants" it's quite possible they would have)

Personally I generally oppose violent resistance on utility grounds- usually it doesn't work, or doesn't work better than other methods. I don't have any moral qualms with it though.

And if you're honest neither do you, so long as you don't like the ones being opposed.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Ayers didn't exhaust his non-violent options

The problem here is that Ayers's targets were not the government institutions responsible for Vietnam. Neither did he exhaust all other options before violently rebelling.

I'm glad he was able to do something productive with his life. His recent work in the field of education has certainly helped numerous people.

On the whole you do have a point. I always found it a bit odd that we're supposed to alter or abolish the government when it no longer meets our needs yet doing so is treason. I suppose the difference between a terrorist and a patriot is popular opinion.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Success rate

the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is success rate.

I don't really disagree about Ayers. My point is less to defend his specific actions rather than to challenge the concept that resistance to government is automatically invalid.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Maintaining the capability to resist government

should government turn tyrannical is part of the way the pro-gun movement and NRA justify their desire to keep and bear arms, isn't it? Or is that just fringe militia groups?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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I ascribe to the penis envy theory

of gun ownership.

Have I pissed off enough people yet? :P

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Oh! ;-) ...there is that element... LOL! n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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There's different types of violent resistance

I would distinguish between violent resistance specifically aimed at infrastructure or military targets, and terrorism aimed at innocent civilians.

I agree for both types that "usually it doesn't work, or doesn't work better than other methods" but from a a practical perspective I think targeting infrastructure or military targets is more likely to be effective and from a moral perspective targeting civilians is significantly more wrong.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Can you link me

to an article demonstrating that Ayers was in fact responsible for the deaths of several police officers? I wonder if maybe you're not thinking of someone else... Wikipedia states that nobody outside the group was even harmed in any bombs set by the Weathermen:

Apart from an apparently accidental premature detonation of a bomb in the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion which claimed the lives of three of its own members, no one was ever harmed in the extensive bombing campaign, as WUO issued warnings in advance to ensure a safe evacuation of the area prior to detonation

The NYT story on Ayers is informative.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Brendan...

I believe this is from Chicago Magazine, and it accompanied an article in which Ayers was peddling his terrorist memoir, Fugitive Days.

At the time this photograph was taken, Obama and Ayers were serving together on the board of the Woods Fund. It was in 2001 when Ayers donated $200 to Obama's State Senate campaign fund.

"Guilty as sin, free as a bird, it's a great country" is one of the Ayers quotes in the top clipping.

I linked one source below, he blew up buildings, was responsible for the death of a policemen in San Francisco, his pals were killed building bombs for him, they killed another officer in upstate NY along with two brinks guards and another individual. Look the whole thing was insanity on his part, regardless of what the circumstances in the world.

If you want more let me know, I can't put pictures and links in the same post for some reason?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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This is what gives liberals a bad name

The idea that we should have fought against America in Vietnam brings to mind one word - outrageous.

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Are there any circumstances

under which you think violent resistance against one's government is justified?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Yes when Human rights are clearly being violated in a

black and white manner. When it comes to a Constitutional Demcracy fighting a Communist dictatorship I'm not going to take the side of the Commnuist dictatorship.

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Even when

the constitutional democracy is entering itself into an internal matter of another country and doing so in order to go against the wishes of the majority of that country?

Furthermore when the Constitutional democracy bases it's involvement upon an alleged attack by the communists that was actually faked in order to frame said communists, does that give you any pause?

Lastly, when said democracy proceeds to wage war with the heavy use of chemical weapons and carpet bombing of civilians does that at all change who you root for?

It is really pretty hard to think of a war that was more evil in its beginning, middle, or end than our war upon the people of Vietnam, unless one wishes to cause a Goodwin violation.

You should disabuse yourself of the notion that democracy means "good" or even that autocracy means "evil." Democracies can be very very evil things when the leaders have no compunctions about lying to the people, manipulating their baser natures, and when the people by and large let them. The single high point of Vietnam is that the people in large part stopped letting them and stood up to the government in a variety of ways.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Why, what is your motivation?

Why work so hard, stretch so far , and waste so many keystrokes defending a bad person who did incredulous things to innocent people?

Pick and choose your battles a little better baby!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I'm indifferent to Ayers

As before, I'm much more interested in the bigger issues (justified violent resistance to tyranny, the capacity of democracies to be just as bad as the worst autocracies, notion of justified wars) than I am in a particular person.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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justified violent resistance to tyranny, ok...

...but the capacity of democracies to be just as bad as the worst autocracies?

Why are you interested in that?

Sure, some people in our democracy object to the Iraq war, not as many as you think because the anti war people are so vocal, but you will see that in November. So that is ok, the war is protested, we'll have an election and settle it. But how do you compare that to a Stalin for instance, where your Uncle disappears in the middle of the night.

Come on...?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Ask Padilla

American citizen grabbed on american soil taken to extrajurisdictional prison to be held without legal rights and quite likely subjected to torture.

Frankly that sounds a hell of a lot like Stalin era USSR. But it wasn't. It was us, the supposedly good guys.

So to answer your question- the potential evil of democracy is an important issue, in my estimation, because democracy has an etirely undeserved reputation of being inherently good. It simply isn't. Nor is it inherently bad.

All it is is a way to make decisions. In some cases it can be the best method. In other cases it isn't. In either case it is entirely possible for the decisions that are reached to be just evil.

So long as people recognize that they can be wary of it. If people aren't wary of it then there is an automatic presumption of innocence on the part of democratic governments which is very dangerous.

Personally I think democracy works pretty well for small group dynamics. It just doesn't scale up very well to the size of the modern US.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Are you F'ing kidding me?

What is your obsession with defending terrorists?

The guy was sentenced to 17 years in a supermax prison.

He's a scumbag who wanted to see you and me dead!

Any other example you care to proffer?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Terrorists, rapists, murders, thieves...

Human rights don't require character references. A lot, probably most of the people sent to the Soviet gulags also committed crimes. That doesn't excuse how they were treated.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Very well said. n/t

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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These are all Canadian people were arrested in Syria?

What does this have to do with the US?

As for Gitmo, many suspects were detained interrogated and released at the start of the war.....so?

Ooopps... replied to wrong post...meant to respond to post below.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Having trouble?

I've noticed you're having difficulty responding to the proper post in several different threads.

If there is something buggy about the site with your web browser, perhaps Ender can look into it. Do you use any odd hardware or software to access the site?

If you need help with anything just ask.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Thx, my wireless jumps in and out here...Maybe thats it?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That's probably it

That very well may be. I don't know exactly how Drupal works in terms of tracking replies, but we may want to look into it.

Apparently there will be a site overhaul to update us to Drupal 6, so perhaps we'll check into it then.

In the meantime, be sure to use the preview button to make sure you're replying to the correct post. The post you are replying to will appear underneath the preview/post buttons after you make an initial preview.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Here are a few examples:

And yes, these are wikipedia links, but they all contain links to sources you might take a bit more seriously:

Abdullah Almalki
Maher Arar
Arwad al-Boushi
Ahmad Abou El-Maati
Muayyed Nureddin
Liban Hussein
Qayyum Jamal
Ahmad Mustafa Ghany

A note about these people: all of them were wrongly arrested, held in prison, and in some cases beaten into signing confessions later found to be false. And all were arrested due to joint operations between American and Canadian anti-terrorist units. The reason we know about these is because the Canadian government has admitted it was wrong, but the American government has not.

Now, take a look at the people released from Guantanamo that the Canadians aren't there to apologize for and provide transparent information about. It's a long list . Some people on the list were transferred to other governments for prosecution in their own countries, and many were simply "released".

How in the world can that be justified, according to any understanding of the core values of American government? Snatch up people from other countries, hold them for years in prison with no recourse to the usual legal defenses, then release them years later when we realize they weren't a threat? That's insanity.

(incidentally, the Arar case just took an interesting turn )

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I think what the government has done is wrong

am strongly opposed to it, and have argued vigorously against it. However, I also argue against the idea that America somehow just as bad as the USSR, or Hitler's Germany or Fidel Castro Cuba... In communist countries the whole country was turned into hell, much different than a handful of cases in the USA. Can what happens in the USA lead to what happened to the the aforementioned dictatorships? - yes. However, that doesn't mean we're anywhere near what those countries were. To compare America to these countries is like comparing a casual Marijuana user to a Cocaine dealer - one can lead to the other, but that doesn't mean we should consider them the same.
I think part of defending our freedom is to realize how great we have it. Stopping the erosion of civil rights should be an effort to perserve's America's greatness not an effort to turn us around from the depravity of States like the USSR. How can you preserve something if you don't recognize it? To not know the difference between the US and totalitarianism is to not recognize freedom.

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I don't think you'll get a lot of disagreement

with those sentiments. Certainly not from me.

(As a side-note I would add that our policy towards Cuba has not helped liberalize that nation.)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Sure, not sure what we could do though

short of military action.

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I'm with Flake (R) on this one --

lifting the embargo would help. More here .

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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I hold us to a higher standard

We should be a lot better than them. It says something about someone when they're essentially saying "but we're better than Cuba!".

By no means am I implying anyone here is saying that.

Certainly our country has a much better history than the Soviet Union, North Korea, or any other totalitarian country. The torture and other human rights abuses just stick out a lot more when it is us because we're supposed to be the leader of the free world. And again, to be completely sure no one gets the wrong idea, I'm not implying we are in any way comparable to them. Really, the fact that we're even having this conversation is a strike against us.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Nobody said Democracy was perfect

However, the idea that western democracies have just as much oppression as the USSR is as ridiculous as denying the holocuast.

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"Just as much"

never said that. But I'm not of the opinion that you need to commit evil acts a million times in order for it to be wrong. It's wrong the very first time.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Why waste your time difining...

....the gargantuan gap between the autocracies and a democracy, in particular, because you use it as your basis, the US?

It amounts to little more than a way of nit picking the greatest, most preeminent form of governance on earth to date!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I object!

I never ever criticized Sweden and I resent any implication that I did!

:)

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Communism is evil,

fighting it was not evil. I think evil is always committed on both sides during a war - that's the tragedy of war. That doesn't mean both sides are equal though. The idea that communism can be just as good as American democracy is like I said something that gives liberals a bad name.

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Spot on... ;-) n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Not sure that's what he's saying

The idea that communism can be just as good as American democracy

I think it's more the idea that even American democracy has proven itself capable of carrying out some pretty misguided or downright awful things.

One could of course argue, probably convincingly, that US missteps occurred despite our political system, whereas the indefensible actions of other nations in some cases arose naturally out of their political system. Still, that means that democracy wasn't functioning properly at that point in our history, and so it is perhaps understandable that there were those who felt it was necessary to act outside the traditional democratic system.

As Tlaloc says, the groups that chose to use violence undercut their own agenda, and I'm certainly not going to defend their actions. However, it is worthwhile to place all this in proper context if we really want to understand how and why the events of the late 60s/early 70s happened the way they did.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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How so?

What is it about communism, the abstraction not a specific application, that is evil?

If you want to call the USSR evil, I'm not going to stop you (although I might point out the US record is scarcely better). Ditto Mao. Certainly Stalin.

But the idea of communism isn't evil. It is well intentioned and overly simplistic such that it doesn't work in real life as promised. And the same can be said of capitalism, BTW.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You're a nut?

Communism is evil in this one ultra significant way, it takes away the one thing you were born into this world with, and the one thing you will die with, your independence.

To compare those mass murderers with any of America's leaders is a sad comment on your world view, and I suppose we have little more to discuss on this topic going forth because of that.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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property = independence?

Really? I could have sworn that slavery and indentured servitude, you know, functions of capitalism, were pretty thorough ways to remove independence.

So I guess we've established that the leading socioeconomic systems of the world all suck.

I for one would like to welcome my new anarchist brethren. Welcome aboard, bitches! :)

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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See....

Does slavery represent Democracy, or capitalism for that matter. You better read up on your history, or take a poli-sci class.

Why do you just continue to burp up absurd ridiculous comparisons.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Why not?

Slavery as practiced in the US certainly was a function of capitalism, one that was vigorously defended in the democratic government until the power of Northern industry was such that they could squash it, for economic more than humanitarian reasons.

You asserted, sans proof, that communism takes away one's independence. I'm giving you a direct example where capitalism and democracy did exactly that to millions.

And yet your condemnation of communism is matched by equal support for capitalism. I find that odd.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Wow, you are not this dim...come on....

Slavery was a choice by individuals to pursue the business of human trade, which was wrong and abolished in our fine democracy.

Dependence is the axiom, the hallmark of communism and was so till capitalism crushed the ideal, although people with short memories are trying to resurrect a sediment that is, and always was, absurd.

Like the college kids falling for an abstraction of Che for instance!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Why, Tlaloc, why?

this is well covered territory concerning slavery. It is not a function of capitalism, nor free-market thinking. This is not a matter of opinion or point of view.

Slavery was MADE to work in the US because the government FAILED to extend personhood to these human beings and respect their rights as individuals.

Why continue to push such absurd notions?

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You're missing the point

Slavery isn't a function of capitalism necessarily (because slavery is a social policy while capitalism is an economic one), but that doesn't preclude capitalism from using slavery to further its ends.

Using purely economic arguments slavery makes sense -- cheap labor brings down the cost of goods. To put it another way, no free market Southerner decided to forgo the use of slaves because he thought it was better business to not use them.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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No YOU ARE....

..missing the point!

And should direct your post to the appropriate target!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Does you're back hurt, Stiney?

Because you're really bending over backwards to salvage a point here for a Tlaloc.

I get what Tlaloc is trying hard to say but it's simply wrong. It's a strawman that blurs and jumbles meanings to make an ideologically satisfying point.

No free market of any degree is compatible with slavery. NONE. It's a contradiction and an impossibility...like 70 degree ice cube or north poles of magnet coming together.

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Not that I'm biased...

...But he is unequivocally correct!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Not quite

My are back hurt?

Either way you'll have to convince me free markets require a particular social policy. Even then, and we're getting of topic here, I don't see too much difference between slavery and effective wage slavery practiced by many companies (domestic and abroad) in the various sweatshops around the world.

I can already see the objection that this too is not a free market, but then you're running dangerously close to the "no true Scotsman " fallacy.

And for the record, given sufficient air pressure, ice cubes can be formed at 70 degrees (centigrade or Fahrenheit).

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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There's nothing to convince, Stiney

What you want to be convinced of is as simple as being convinced that Tokyo is the capital of Japan.

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But I'll make the effort, anyway ;)

It's easy :

A free market is a market in which prices of goods and services are arranged completely by the mutual consent of sellers and buyers. By definition, in a free market environment buyers and sellers do not coerce or mislead each other nor are they coerced by a third party

Note that misleading or coercing are "fraud" and "force" and are hence illegal.

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Whoever was quoted is the one most ignorant...

...person on earth!

Why respond?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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What do you mean?

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Sorry John..I meant above.I am not that dialed in on posting....

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I'm reminded of a question from a management class

A car crash just occurred, a tall uniformed man with a badge ask both parties in the crash questions and collects their statements and pertinent information.

Was the police officer tall?

Stinerman: The tall uniformed man wasn't identified as a cop. So its in the realm of possibilities that the tall man wasn't a cop.
John: Well, its implied that the tall man was cop, so the officer was without a doubt tall.

Note that misleading or coercing are "fraud" and "force" and are hence illegal.

Its not "illegal" if the slaves have no rights...if slaves have no rights to buy or sell, then they are "outside" the "free market"
Lack of qualifiers or preexisting conditions for a "free market" in your given definition of "free market" leave an open back door for slavery.

True Liberty for all = no slavery
Free Market = slavery possible

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Brutus,

What you're basically doing is what Stiner did above when I asked him if his back hurt.

Let me be blunt:

You're being biased. You are taking your level of selectivity in reading the exchanges as well your predetermined narrowness and broadness in what was said to the nth degree.

In your last paragraph you're basically injecting an "IF" that totally negates well-known and obvious pre-existing conditions that are inseparable from the meanings of terms.

It is not "MY" definition of a free market. It is THE definition of a free market. Slavery is antithetical to free markets.

There's simply no point in honest discussion to pretend otherwise for the simple purpose of giving undeserved leniency to someone you don't want to disagree with.

If I say Paris, France is in FRANCE, and someone you like agreeing with says "Not necessarily. There IS a Paris in Montana!", there's nothing there to parse or rationalize. That special someone you want to agree with is simply and clearly wrong and is misspeaking in the context provided.

………… parent

Dred Scott and the Three-Fiths Compromise

You are taking your level of selectivity in reading the exchanges as well your predetermined narrowness and broadness in what was said to the nth degree.

Definitions that use undefined technical jargon will lead itself to negation of well known and obvious pre-existing conditions especially when other laws/theories/definitions are at play.

If I say Paris, France is in FRANCE, and someone you like agreeing with says "Not necessarily. There IS a Paris in Montana!"

Not at all what we're arguing....not at all what's being said...that "free market" definition is ambiguous as is, because the " Paris, France is in FRANCE" definition you are using in contingent on other rights or definitions that are not directly specified and not inherent in the wording and can be taken to mean more than one thing.

Standing by itself, that definitive definition of "free market" could easily be defined as:
"Paris is only in France [and Parisians have certain inalienable rights]"

For the "free market" definition to mean "Paris, France is in FRANCE" then "buyer" and "seller" would need to be defined somewhere [ Otherwise one is asking for trouble if judges, or people from different POV, are thrown in the mix [judges/people cannot read minds and may somehow be unaware of well known and obvious truths that exist in other's unspecified definitions of words ].

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

No ambiguity

None at all. POV is irrelevant here.

You are trying to create ambiguity by mis-defining terms.

Well before you or Stiner responded, this was already unambiguous.

I don't see the point is making a term murky or made to mean something other than what it is in order to fit a bias.

………… parent

POV is hasn't been irrelevent here

The definition of "free market" is flawed if it truly means what you say it means by itself.

The terms "buyer" and "seller" would take on additional meanings than found in any dictionary I can find, and no marketing glossary I can find defines "buyer" or "seller."

You even stated our case against yours that the free market, by itself, allows a back door for slavery.

Slavery was MADE to work in the US because the government FAILED to extend personhood to these human beings and respect their rights as individuals.

Somewhat similar: A fire hose can put out a fire, but the fire hose needs some water.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

That's not the same thing

and you know it.

I see no reason to defend the notion that buyers and sellers are obviously people and that what they are buying and selling cannot be people.

You can go over semantics with a fine tooth comb all you want and trying to imply that there's a back door of some kind. There isn't one.

Buyers and Sellers cannot be coerced. That was also in the definition. Labor is a seller of....labor. If it's coerced into working for no pay, it's not a free market. And for a state to arbitrarily allow this atrocity to happen is to nullify a free market.

………… parent

Examples make better defintions

Labor is a seller of....labor. If it's coerced into working for no pay, it's not a free market. And for a state to arbitrarily allow this atrocity to happen is to nullify a free market.

Thats better and isn't ambiguous .

Logical debate:

I see no reason to defend the notion that buyers and sellers are obviously people and that what they are buying and selling cannot be people.

What was said above:
A: Buyers and sellers are people. [slavery possible]
B: People cannot be sold. [slavery not allowed]

C: [Unstated premise] All people are buyers and sellers.
If C then B
C is true
Then B is true
But that wasn't be said earlier

Much earlier "B" was; " Buyers and sellers cannot be sold"
If A then B
A is ture
Then B is "true" [but still leaves open if all people are buyers and sellers]

---

There was once a law in Columbus, Ohio that forbid people dressing as the opposite sex. The law was nullified because it was too ambiguous to be enforced, even though some would argue that its obvious to anyone, that anyone should be able to tell when someone is dressing as the opposite sex.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Changed nothing

Thats better and isn't ambiguous .

Never changed from the beginning. Again, we are talking about established concepts. The fact that I, personally in neon lights, didn't spell it out in gory detail doesn't change the fact that is was true to begin with.

The ambiguity is self created. There isn't any ambiguity in the reality of the matter. It's created by looking for "supposedly" loose ends to misconstrue. My avoidance of using dumbed-down over-clarity is more out of respect for others.

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I making a very narrow point...

not everyone comes to the table with the same assumptions or definitions of words [especially in light of the history of formerly so called free markets and Dred Scott and the like]

In one Dinotopia novella, there was an obstacle course that a human was going to race a physically superior dinosaur. The rules were; the first one to the finish line wins. Easy enough rules to follow, the dinosaur was obviously going to go through the obstacle course and finish first. The human thought about what the rules actually said "the first one to the finish line wins." Nothing about going through the obstacles was ever mentioned in the rules, it may have been implied, but one could just as well assume to take the one rule at face value and the human didn't assume that just because there were obstacles, that one had to read more into the rules than were there. The human stepped to the side of the obstacles and ran to the finish, while the dinosaur was busy racing through the obstacles. The human won because the human followed what the rules said and not the unstated intent of having to go through the obstacles in the race.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Assumptions about fact

don't play the same way as you intend.

Assumptions that contradict easily verifiable definitions are not, in fact, valid "assumptions". They are more like false pretenses.

………… parent

Easy verification...?

Do you have any real world examples markets that have been truly 'freed'?

Market forces are a good organizing principle but the whole picture is more complex than the simple utopian slogan that free markets are a cure for tyranny.

In the case of slavery, free markets were the cause not the cure.

………… parent

Twisting

The definition is easily verifiable. Look again.

………… parent

Find a defintion of "seller" and "buyer" ....

that meets you criterion. I had failed at my attempts.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Intentionally difficult

read the definition in its entirety. This isn't philosophy class. The definition isn't necessarily written to cover all the bases of people's delusions.

………… parent

Besides, Brutus

A few posts ago you admitted it wasn't ambiguous after I spelled it out. And I pulled every word for how I spelled it out from the definition in the wiki link. It's all there. Why backtrack now?

………… parent

It was a simple question

that you avoided answering.

Just give one real world example of a market that has been 'freed'.

I don't think you can cite a pure example.

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I avoided the answer?

You twisted the words in an attempt to change the subject. We are talking about definitions.

And besides, your very question shows that you are not understanding the premise at hand in real world applications.

It's never about absolutes and extremes....ever, ever. Never.

Cop out strawman arguments take this route, not real ones.

It's always about degrees...relative degrees...always and forever.

Scroll and reread. If you can't see how you're simply changing the subject when you hit a dead end and asking non sequitir questions to back yourself out, then I simply don't what to tell you.

That said, I think you know very well what I mean.

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Good luck...;-) n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Give me a concrete example

A real world concrete example that illustrates your definitions.

It's a simple question and it would help your case if you could give a specific for instance, that is a real world example of your definition(s).

If you want to avoid the question, that's fine.

………… parent

Again, MissL

I defer to what I've already written.

You've drifted and missed a lot along the way.

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Well...

I was looking at what the theory said an not its intent, and other's in the past have disagreed that "free markets" must mean there is universal "economic freedom."

Much in the same way the 8th Amendment doesn't forbid torture to gain confessions from a suspect, but the 5th Amendment does. That doesn't take anything away from the 8th Amendment, but its not an all encompassing right.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Food for thought, Brutus

Consider the irony of the unbelievable imbalance in how you apply scrutiny and leniency.

It's staggering.

………… parent

To put an end to this (hopefully)

The entire thing hinges on the definition of "free market".

I believe the following is a true statement:

"The southern states had a free market economy in the early 1800s".

You, apparently, do not, and you are more than welcome to believe that, but everyone needs to be absolutely clear in what they mean by specific terms. Otherwise, we get essentially semantic arguments that scroll off the right side of the page.

Horizontal scrollbars are God's way of telling everyone to move on to the next topic.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

no.

it hinges on a correct or willful distortion of the definition....all in the myopic aim of disagreeing with me.

You're right. Let's move on.

………… parent

It's got nothing at all to do with you personally

It is not myopic twitch.

I just flat out disagree. I think your definition is wrong and unrealistic, and you never ever provided me a real world example of a truly free market at work.

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Disagree with what?

I just flat out disagree. I think your definition is wrong and unrealistic

With what? A standard definition?

That part keeps getting missed.

That fact that you think its unrealistic really has nlothing to do with the matter at hand. It really doesn't. You are lost here. You have lost track of what is being debated.

You simply don't like the definition for whatever reason and seem to have lost sight of the reason it even entered the discussion.

And again, your question is a non sequitir and has nothing to do with the discussion thread.

You created that topic all on your own.

I'm on the same topic from the beginning. You seem to changing it as you go along.

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Uh gee, how about forgetting...

...the tyranny of 200 years ago in the form of slavery, and look at America of today!

Just in the narrow scope of that one issue, the highest paid actor, the most popular music artists, the best golfer in the world, and the (clearing my throat) potential next POTUS are all of the class of peoples that suffered under that form of tyranny?

Oh, I know, if it's good about America it can't reconcile with Miss L's dogma.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Completely unneccessary.

"Oh, I know, if it's good about America it can't reconcile with Miss L's dogma."

Very ugly rude statement.

You don't get a free pass to insult my patriotism, just because you and I don't agree.

………… parent

Uh, your posts do all the work for me.... n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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You do that a lot you know.

You're not very sociable. In fact you are on occasion childishly snippy and rude to those you don't agree with. I think you do it on purpose and I think you mean to tell all that you are superior to those you denigrate. Dog whistle style.

This isn't RedState, this isn't DKos. The whole premise of this site was to support discussion between those that don't agree.

You can get angry. You can get passionate. But you really shouldn't try to bring the worse points of RedState & DKos here.

………… parent

Most excellent!

Thank You.

………… parent

So free markets are unicorns

By your definition a free market is never going to occur so we may as well stop worrying about them. To imagine a siutuation in which a person is trained to value money as the highest good and yet expect them not to coerce or mislead their customers is absurd.

And contra to your previous assertions that "free", in reference to markets, is a scale where more is better, this definition sets a hard absoilute boundary. A market with one iota of coercion is no different than one that is planned to the last detail. Free markets are an illusion of no worth, so for god's sake let's stop pretending like they are achievable or even desirable. Such arguments are as useless as the "what if we're all just brains in a jar" discussions of college students.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Sorry Tlaloc that is a wilfull cop out

that is miles away from the matter we were discussing.

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How do you do it John? LOL!

...after exhaustive efforts for lucidity in your commentary, and the conspicuous, doltish application of derangement on the part of your dim-witted counterparts.

My hat if off to you.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I follow Yoda's advice. ;)

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If property is independence

and slaves were historically lawfully owned property, (the clean ones fetched a good price) would a slave owner be considered a very free and independent man?

………… parent

You're behind it....this was sorted out.. n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Gosh....

I didn't realize free speech was being rationed, or are you the new editor of STFU.

God you authoritarian types are irritating.

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Uh blah ugg sh lough guagh umm....?

You are not, and will not be the editor of a f'ing thing as long as I'm alive!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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easy there....

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Well..?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

No need to get nasty with the other posters

Look, I'm the last guy to bug people about these things but you don't advance discussion or your cause by being mean to others.

………… parent

Who are you calling authoritarian, Miss STFU?

Pot, meet kettle. :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

You've been missed.

God knows Ender and Red_Wing can only pull so much weight around here.

Wife & kid good?

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For someone who has supported the trashing of our freedom

& independence for the last 7 1/2 years by bush43, I don't think you have any standing to say a different political philosophy is bad. You just don't have any standing because supporting bush43 is the same as Stalinistic control. You support an Omnipotent Executive branch that can disregard any of the other three branches when they want.

You are just supporting one totalitarian state & badmouthing another.

For the record, I'm not communist. I do think some things like health care, retirement & such are best covered under a socialist type approach, but I do think private innovation surpasses state. I'm a capitalist that doesn't have to squeeze every fraction of a penny profit to make it work.

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Why don't you and I just give it a break...

..your brand of...whatever it is you're thinking is ...is not appealing to me, and you've made it clear you feel the same for mine.

A break would be good.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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To equate Bush with Stalin is to trivialize brutal

totalitarianism. You guys should really read some first hand accounts of what it's like living in a brutal dictatorship - its nothing at all like the USA. Calling the government evil would get you "Reeducated". Here people are free to say Bush is evil...

………… parent

(Chuckles and shakes his head.)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Stalinisticly applied anarchy, that's what we need!

But the idea of communism isn't evil. It is well intentioned and overly
simplistic such that it doesn't work in real life as promised. And the
same can be said of capitalism, BTW.

Same old tune, Tlaloc.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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That's a ridiculous assertion to make.

The idea that communism can be just as good as American democracy is like I said something that gives liberals a bad name.

The issue isn't - and never was - whether one is in sum better than the other. The issue is - and was - America's role in Viet Nam, which was not defensible on any level.

And that's true regardless of whether American-style democracy is better than communism.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

………… parent

Are you replying to the right person?

A guy illegally having a liquor license is somehow as awful as a guy setting bombs in government buildings? Hmmm?

I never insulated anything to that effect. All I said was that neither of these men affect my decision for whom I will vote because they aren't running for President.

Ayers should have been in jail, but not for murder because he never actually killed anyone.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Ayers has no felony convictions and you want to execute him?

Maybe you should think about that when some of us think you aren't completely rational & certainly don't apply logic to your statements.

………… parent

That is classic!

This guys responsible for the deaths of many people, he terrorized Americans, he should have been a felon but chose to do his typical cowardly thing and hide out for 11 years, his cohorts got big time, till Billy F'ing Clinton commuted their sentences? Yet you somehow equate that to a guy with an illegal license?

And I don't apply logic to "my" statements...YIKES?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Who died?

Apart from an apparently accidental premature detonation of a bomb in the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion which claimed the lives of three of its own members, no one was ever harmed in the extensive bombing campaign, as WUO issued warnings in advance to ensure a safe evacuation of the area prior to detonation.[6][7]

Wikipedia

Seems the only casualties were, you know, fellow Weathermen, and since you seem to think they should have gotten death sentences it is hard to see how you can call their accidental deaths a bad thing anyway.

Are there some deaths that the Weathermen caused (or that Ayers was involved in independently) that Wiki missed?

Seems one person died as part of the "Days of Rage" riots and Ayers was there but considering him directly responsible seems tenuous.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Well for one...

Ayers was never prosecuted for his admitted involvement in
Weatherman terrorism because of alleged government misconduct in gathering
evidence against him. What a shame. But Ayers has freely admitted to involvement in
Weatherman bomb plots, and he has said he does not regret planting
bombs.

Ayers was accused, in classified testimony before a
Senate subcommittee in 1974, of involvement in the murder of a police
officer in San Francisco, as well as an attempted (and unsuccessful)
anti-personnel bombing in Detroit. It is an aspect of Ayers’ story that
the mainstream media has completely ignored and even covered up .

He is an idiot, he should have rotted in prison, and it is sad liberals prop him up!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Accused in committee

is not the same thing as guilty. It isn't even the same thing as accused in court.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Still. You are saying we should execute midomeners.

Or we should execute people who haven't been found guilty of a crime.

You must be unfamiliar with a period of American History called "the Revolution". Our forefathers came up with a couple real cool documents that illegalized that sort of stuff.

I guess you could still be a proud supporter of George III though.

………… parent

To clarify...

...I feel like he has admitted his crimes, he was not prosecuted due to the government fouling up the investigation.

However, yes, even by the rights you claim he did what he did, which I find deplorable, a vigilante group should then lynch him!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

This does clarify a bit

I think this does clarify a bit in this thread and the offshoot regarding using violence to achieve political ends.

However, yes, even by the rights you claim he did what he did, which I find deplorable, a vigilante group should then lynch him!

It seems that you don't mind (or don't mind others) going outside the law when the cause suits you. For instance, its alright by you for a group to murder someone because of their past, but it isn't alright for another group to set off bombs to change government policy.

I would assume that you would support insurrection if the government decided to take away your right to bear arms or speak in support or against a particular political candidate or congregate peacefully with your fellow GOP members.

I understand why Ayers did what he did but I don't agree with his methods. When in rebellion the only just targets are government buildings and military installations. The fact that he wanted to bring about a socialist revolution in the US is not immediate grounds to condemn him. Only his methods are.

The only difference between you and Ayers is that he believed the government was overstepping its bounds with respect to Vietnam while you didn't. I'm sure that if the time came, there would be others who'd call you a terrorist if you decided to rebel against an unjust government.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

No! You are joining the ranks of the pathetic! n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Based on your latest response...

However, yes, even by the rights you claim he did what he did, which I find deplorable, a vigilante group should then lynch him!..."Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

...I then should assume the above was just sarcasm?

Everyone has a different take on what government incursions would justify overthrowing a government. Or what government should do to stop an insurrection and what evidence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that an insurrection is occuring.

Would one be justified for blowing up Reichssicherheitshauptamt office?
If one answered yes, then the only difference between claiming to have killed a RSHA officer and what Ayers did, is what one feels on the validity of the justification.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

(More chuckles)

Wikipedia

There's your problem, right there!  Believe me, Wikipedia cannot be trusted.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Ouch!

Don Bourdeaux gets really feisty around election time when journalists start heaping praise at the feet of politicians.

In the link, he sends a rebuke of one editor's article praising Obama's humility.

No truly humble person - no person who understands the limits of his own intelligence and capacity - parades around posing as the first plural pronoun in the outrageously narcissistic chant "we are the change we have been waiting for." No one with genuine humility utters anything so cocksure as Mr. Obama's promise to get one million 150-mpg cars on the road by 2015, or his vow to reduce Americans' carbon emissions by 80 percent (!) by 2050. Genuinely humble people don't presume to know how much profit earned by private companies is "windfall" - and they certainly don't formulate plans to confiscate such profits.

Indeed, no one within a light year of humility wants the kind of power and gaudy glory that Mr. Obama and Mr. McCain so desperately seek.

Ha. I love that he just had to throw McCain's name in there lest anyone think he was taking sides. :)

Anyway, the rebuke is dripping with the insights of Hayek on the limits of human knowledge and ability at any given point in time...one of many ideas Hayek tied into the "Fatal Conceit".

…………

It's kind of insulting

when they don't even bother to lie to you anymore about their intent to lie to you.

Wow -- a leading Republican appears to have just inadvertently admitted that the GOP's spin machine set up to counter Barack Obama during the convention is a propaganda machine spewing nothing but lies.

The GOPer in question is Colorado GOP chairman Dick Wadhams, who accidentally made the admission when describing the GOP's war room in Denver set up to hammer Obama during convention week.

Wadhams described the GOP's outfit thusly to the Denver Post: "Just consider this the Ministry of Truth."

Source. Emphasis added. Original quote from here.

Ministry of Truth, of course, is the name Orwell gave to a government bureaucracy in his work 1984. The purpose of the Ministry of Truth was to create propaganda and to rewrite history so as to control the masses.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Not so much insulting as it funny.

Naturally, I don't approve but it still gives a chuckle and a shake of the head to see the political operatives going to such lengths for power. It's part and parcel of the high stakes democratic process. You can't change it. You can only suppress its importance.

Sadly, people seem more intent on failing at the former rather than succeeding at the latter. I wonder why [snark].... ;)

………… parent

A noun, a verb, and "POW."

It's gotten ridiculous. I literally have not read a single McCain quote in the last week that did not explicitly mention his former POW status from THIRTY FIVE freaking years ago regardless of the topic. Housing? POW. Economy? POW. Foreign Policy? POW.

I wasn't even born when McCain had already been released, so how exactly is this relevant to the current presidential election?

He's rapidly becoming an infintely recursive self parody, like a clown between two mirrors.

(title shamelessly stolen from Biden's brilliant mocking of Guiliani)

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Well, no bounce for Biden pick, and...

...today in the middle of the Democratic convention, McCain now leads in the Gallup poll!

Go figure?
;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Tell me about it

in October.

Or on November 5th =)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

The people say that the "Popular vote don't matter" n/t

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

But considering 13 out of 14 times( 40 out of 43)

The popular vote winner is the winner, its a pretty good indicator.

………… parent

Did you know that John Kerry served in Vietnam?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

This displeases me

Life has had a number of minor annoyances recently.

The latest is Kevin Drum moving to Mother Jones and Steve Benen taking over at Washington Monthly. So far I'd say Benen's blogging is distinctly mundane compared to Drum's own exceptional form. At the same time the blog at Mother Jones is atrocious looking and physically hurts my eyes.

Ah well. Maybe Benen will get better and Drum promised there was a site redesign in the works...

No, I'm still annoyed. Rationalizations be damned.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

I just switched the bookmarks.

I call the one new Carpetbagger Report & the other still just Kevin Drum.

You'd think I would read the rest of Mother Jones but I don't. Just the one column now,

………… parent

Skynet is taking over

CNN : Every major airport in the United States was experiencing flight delays Tuesday afternoon because of a communications breakdown at a Federal Aviation Administration facility, the administration said.

It looks like a fairly minor inconvenience... this time! How long before the computers start rerouting flights bound for Hawaii to South Dakota, or vacationers headed for sunny Florida find themselves unexpectedly disembarking in Duluth?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

…………

I strongly maintain

that the fact that people live in Minnesota is iron clad proof that the planet is overpopulated. No one- no one- would voluntarily choose to live in that &^%$hole unless there was just nowhere else.

This micro-rant brought to you by mention of Duluth and by the number 4 and 9.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Oh you did it now

My family is from MN, I grew up there. It's one thing for you to mock the south, but now you've gone too far.

It is actually a fairly lousy place to live in terms of weather, I have to admit. Too cold in the winter and hot and humid in the summer, with lots of mosquitoes because of all the lakes.

But the people are very nice, and the Twin Cities have a lot to offer.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Yeah..weather

I spent a couple years there in my early childhood. Winters are hell. Summers are hell in another way and bring a shotgun to deal with the mosquitos.

The people are fine, other than tending to being rabid football fans. My point is that those people would likely still be just fine in say Hawaii, only they could do it without the parkas.

At least Montana has some spectacularly beautiful countryside.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Come now

You don't really believe a rational argument is going to change his mind on something so obviously emotional.

His hatred of Minnesota is obviously based on spite. Whereas our mutual disgust with the South and my seething hatred of Michigan is based on logic and reason.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Don't forget Utah

Let me get this straight, you got this big desert right? And smack in the middle of it you have a huge lake that's so salty you can't drink it without getting sick. The only thing worth noting for a hundred miles in any direction are the scorpions.

Great place to build a city.

Did I add "retards"? Cause I reall meant to say "Great place to build a city, retards."

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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What is it about us?

I feel the same way about Florida. I have a Maynard James Keenanesque hatred of that place; much the same way he feels about Los Angeles :

Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.
suck it down.
flush it down.

And don't get me started on Michigan .

The other side of the coin:

Florida has good orange juice. Michigan has Vernors , quite possibly the best evidence of God there is. Thats about the best I can say about either.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Vernors!

Don't forget, Craig Krenzel was from Michigan...

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Move out here to California. We've got it all and then some.

It's a little pricey though. No worse than the east coast though.

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I'm pretty fond of northern california.

Redwoods, plentiful rain, nice beaches. Southern California sort of sucks just because it is so overcrowded.

I'd be pretty happy if California, Oregon, and Washington became their own little republic. That'd be alright.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Please don't split the difference and...

...move to Santa Barbara here with the likes of me lurking about... LOL

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Unlikely

I like western Oregon too much. I know what I hate and I don't hate California, but I like it here.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I do too... It's a geat part of the world! n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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The PAC 10 is horrible in every shape and form...

worse than Michigan even.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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OK so RW's cost of living is higher than mine.

Some parts of CA are more expensive than others.

It could be worse though RW. You could be at Pepperdine & have to live in Malibu. You'd be a great fit at Pepperdine. I don't know about Malibu though.

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Iraq

There is a gathering storm on Iraq's horizon. Over the last several weeks, its central government has embarked on what appears to be an effort to arrest, drive away or otherwise intimidate tens of thousands of Sunni security volunteers -- the so-called Sons of Iraq -- whose contributions have been crucial to recent security gains. After returning from a trip to Iraq last month at the invitation of Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Iraq, we are convinced that if Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki and his advisors persist in this sectarian agenda, the country may spiral back into chaos.

Much of Iraq's dramatic security progress can be traced to a series of decisions made by Sunni tribal leaders in late 2006 to turn against Al Qaeda in Iraq and cooperate with American forces in Anbar province. These leaders, outraged by Al Qaeda's brutality against their people, approached the U.S. military with an offer it couldn't refuse: Enter into an alliance with the tribes, and they would turn their weapons against Al Qaeda rather than American troops.

Throughout 2007, U.S. commanders capitalized on this Sunni movement, the so-called Awakening, to create an expanding network of alliances with Sunni tribes and former insurgents that helped turn the tide and drive Al Qaeda in Iraq to near extinction. There are now about 100,000 armed Sons of Iraq, each paid $300 a month by U.S. forces to provide security in local neighborhoods throughout the country. In recognition of the key role the Awakening played in security improvements, President Bush met with several Sunni tribal leaders during his trip to Anbar last September, and Petraeus, who cites the program as a critical factor explaining the decline in violence, has promised to "not walk away from them."

But Iraq's predominantly Shiite central government seems intent on doing precisely that. Maliki and his advisors never really accepted the Sunni Awakening, and they remain convinced that the movement is simply a way for Sunni insurgents to buy time to restart a campaign of violence or to infiltrate the state's security apparatus. In 2007, with Iraq's government weak and its military not yet ready to take the lead in operations, the Maliki government acquiesced to the U.S.-led initiative and grudgingly agreed to integrate 20% of the Sons of Iraq into the Iraqi security forces. Now, a newly confident Maliki government is edging away from this commitment.

Source.

BAGHDAD — Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki said Monday there would be no security agreement between the United States and Iraq without an unconditional timetable for withdrawal — a direct challenge to the Bush administration, which insists that the timing for troop departure would be based on conditions on the ground.

"No pact or an agreement should be set without being based on full sovereignty, national common interests, and no foreign soldier should remain on Iraqi land, and there should be a specific deadline and it should not be open," Maliki told a meeting of tribal Sheikhs in Baghdad.

Source.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- Iraq says it's going to revive a $1.2 billion oil deal with China that was canceled after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

The country's Oil Ministry says an initial agreement with China is expected to be signed at the end of August to develop the billion-barrel Ahdab oil field south of Baghdad.

Source.

So what does this all mean? It sure looks like Maliki is distancing himself from the US, probably in anticipation of Iraq's elections, although god only knows when those will happen since the Iraqi government can't seem to settle the issue. In the mean time Maliki is flexing his muscle in ways that runs contrary to the U.S. GOP interests.

If Maliki moves against the Sunni tribesmen expect the violence to go back up. Especially if he does so without the overwhelming firepower of US troops to back him up. As we saw in Basra the Iraqi army is not exactly fearsome.

In fact in many respects (except particular sectarian faith, of course) Maliki is coming to resemble Iraq's last strongman leader every day. I fully expect us to start hearing the neocon warmongers rattling sabers about the dangerous madman Nouriki who represents a grave threat to the US in a few years. Saddam was their ally originally, too.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Jon Stewart's Denver show is hillarious!

I am loving it.

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Thanks to the editors, once again.

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;)

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Aww boo. The other progressive sites want me to feel bad I

didn't watch Hillary's speech.

Well, yea my bad but The Daily Show was classic. I figured I'd catch the Cliff Notes at other sites. So yea.....but I don't feel bad about it.

I'll go review the speech now.

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She totally kicked butt....

The leader of the sisterhood of the traveling pantsuits was on fire!

".....it makes sense that George Bush and John McCain will be together next week in the Twin Cities. Because these days they’re awfully hard to tell apart."

I am sure CSpan will rerun it. She made Bill laugh, and MIchelle smile.

Mark Warner, Brian Schweizter were great too.

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Really?

And so why would you say that?

She never said anything about the ability of him to govern?

Or anything at all she thought BO was better suited to be POTUS than John McCain?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I see you

edited your comment after you got your talking points.

That she didn't convince you to support Obama is hardly shocking.

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What?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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It was a great speech. Reading the papers this AM though you'd

think the Democrats were tearing themselves apart. There were 3 AP articles that all highlighted the fake PUMA angst and lowballed the fact that 90 - 95% of Hillary's supporters won't be voting for McSame.

That's what I find disturbing. The MSM cares more about hype & spin than the actual political ideas being discussed.

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LOL!

Ya the MSM is out to sink Obama... They're making things up now too huh? LOL! You are so funny!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Too bad Mark Warner is being overshadowed

His speech set the tone for a new way of doing business that looks to the future and not the past, emphasising America's best resource, the character of it's people.

As Governor he turned Virginia's lagging economy around, no small feat.

"Because this election isn't about liberal vs. conservative. It's not about left vs. right. It's about the future vs. the past. In this election, at this moment, in our history, we know what the problems are. We know that at this critical juncture we have only one shot to get it right. And we know that these new times demand new thinking."

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It's the perfect frame

Future versus past.

Turns Obama's experience deficit into a positive, which is nice, but it also serves to position the Democratic party as a whole as looking ahead rather than reaching back. It helps that this is the archetypal struggle between liberalism and conservatism -- it's a natural frame that happens to be particularly convincing because of the events of the last decade.

Warner might have been able to take the nomination himself this year, had he run, but I guess he didn't like his chances against Clinton. I wouldn't be surprised if he runs in the future, but either way I'm sure he'll be a strong voice in the Dem party, which is to our benefit.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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They changed the line up...

...because Mark Warner refused to be a cheerleader and bash McCain.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Pre-emptive strike

Republicans are already mocking the stage.

What will they think of next.

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So far your convention is a flop...

The ratings suck, and the party is in utter derangement. The "what if he picked Hillary" thing will haunt the party throughout this election.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That isn't what Nielsen says

Nielsen is reporting that viewership is up 20% from 2004 . Apparently 22 million people watched the opening night on various networks.

I'd consider that good ratings. The Republicans may yet do better (they did do better than the Democrats in 2004), but they've got a high mark to beat (not that TV ratings for conventions is all that important).

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Hmmm....

I saw this .

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I see the discrepancy

Your data measures 10:00p-11:00p. My data measures the entire prime-time block.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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