Democratic Natrional Convention Open thread
Reason has some great shots all day from Invesco Field: 1
See their Convention Coverage and more photos . LOTSA people.
I love the one recurring sentence in almost every posting:
"All these people are here to see a POLITICIAN give a speech."
They love stressing that mundane fact.
But anyway,
The floor is yours. Throw your Convention and Speech thoughts here.
YES WE CAN!! hehehe
Submitted by John on Thu, 2008-08-28 20:59
Comments :
Obama just accepted the nomination
Thanks for the open thread
Good call.
Someday you'll find a libertarian politician who inspires you to believe that s/he can, with your help, shrink the federal government =)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
LOL.
yeah right. :)
The set is quite nice, actually
Obama opens with thanks, specifically mentioning Clinton.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Bush Bash Count
I count only one so far. Classy move.
ENOUGH!!!!
There's your sound byte.
"8 is enough!, 8 is enough!"
Obama was laughing.
Talk about a guy...
...and a party that see's the world as a big cup half empty?
Yikes?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Heh
I see it as about 9/10ths empty, so he's already got me beat by a long shot.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
He's making a convincing defense of liberalism
Even if you're a conservative or a libertarian I would think you'd have to acknowledge that he's clearly laying out the case for a sensible safety-net society.
Talking about the GI bill, how we looked after the veterans who looked after us. How student loans and scholarships help people get ahead. Government cannot solve all our problems, but it should do what we can't do as individuals. Invest in new roads, science, technology, education. Ensure opportunity for every American who is willing to work. We are responsible for ourselves but we also rise or fall as one nation.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
That's sweet, Brendan
But I have no problem with a social safety net and doubt most non-liberals would argue about a safety net. But we already have a safety net. It's there. It's been there for a long time.
But when he starts talking about investing in this and that and making the rivers flow with honey on a whim, alternative fuels, affordable college and on and on and on and on and on, I just smirk....because he can't do it. INCAPABLE.
He talks about helping business and entrepreneurs and then goes on about sick leave, paid this and paid that, closing loop holes and these things that can hurt these same businesses. He talks about shipping jobs overseas (ugh). Yeah? and ? what?
Don't get wrong. I tune it all out. I know he knows very well that he can't keep these promises. It's nonsense and means absolutely nothing besides getting votes and stirring up the base.
Well, let's take one example
$150 billion for alternative energy over the next decade.
That's only $15 billion per year, but it would make a significant difference for growing technologies. We're spending about $12 billion per month in Iraq right now -- I know you're not in favor of that, but my point is that there is money to be saved, and better ways to spend what we take in.
That $15 billion per year could help get alternative energy off the ground, to the point where the market will take over.
Yes, it would happen on its own as oil becomes more expensive. But we can ease the transition. And yes, it depends on the details of how that spending is allocated. Certainly there is the potential for counterproductive backing of inefficient technologies, but with a little common sense the return on investment should be quite good.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Nope.
Believe me, I get that you think it would matter but it just won't.
Remember, it's not about intentions.
Whether the US Govt. spends that $15 Billion per year or not, in the end, whatever happens will happen just the same. JUST THE SAME. Actually, it will be even better without it because we won't waste time propping up loser technologies and wasting time.
Universities already get funding. The best and brightest already study this stuff building on decades of learning and expertise.
As for oil, well, here's Megan McArdle
...another one of those "I like Obama better than McCain" type libertarians. Her reaction to the energy part of his speech is blunt, spot on and sadly 110% true. Have a read.
Remember, Brendan. I don't believe Obama heartily believes what he's saying. What disappoints me is that he says to get tears out of flag waving supporters and dupe people watching at home.
Here's Megan:
From where do universities already get funding?
From federal grants, primarily. AFAIK they don't typically burn endowments to fund science (I wish!).
So if you think that makes sense then you're not opposed to spending federal money on alternative energy. We're just quibbling about the dollar figure, right?
You say "in the end, whatever happens will happen just the same." In the end might be a long time from now. Think of the government spending as a potential catalyst -- a chemical reaction could still occur eventually absent the catalyst, but it would take much longer. "In the end" from market forces will be when oil spikes (more than it already has) -- that's when privately funded R&D will really start to take off. $15 billion/year to avoid the lag time, to minimize the bumpiness of the transition, and to mitigate the apparent harmful side effects from burning oil seems like a useful investment to me, especially since it goes to supporting US companies and US jobs. YMMV, of course... as I expect it would for a libertarian.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Univerities get funding for everything and always have
But Obama is talking is direct funding by other means. This is different.
Like I've said in other posts, people are working on ideas. They don't need public funding.
And when I say whatever happens will happen just the same...I meant in terms of product as well as time frame. Funding would simply be pushing on a string.
Do you really blame him?
He'd lose the election in a landslide if he leveled with everyone. Ever since Carter said to put on a sweater and turn down the thermostat, standard operating procedure is to reassure people that they can have their cake and eat it, too. And the other guy's cake. And a pony.
McCain does the same thing with his "I'll cut taxes and balance the budget" schtick.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
It would have more producitve...or at least less silly
to simply say he advocates a 15 year (or indefinite) repeal of corporate income tax for companies involved in the production or development of energy. Period.
He can just say he wants to lighten to load on innovators and producers of energy and allow them to prosper.
Now, if he wants to leave oil off that list, I guess that's fine.
Overall is was a good speech.
Very believable, very sincere (mainly) and it conveyed the intangibles he will need against McCain.
I expect him to pound MCain in the debates on style. Points will be a wash.
"You're on your own"
Like I said, it's not like we don't have a safety net. It's not like there are no jobs. We have both and lots of them.
Reading Megan MeArdle
again, who seems to be really be on the same wave length as me tonight, puts up a post on the "case for liberalism" point that Brendan mentions elsewhere in this thread. It also reminds me of this bah-boo-hoo response 
by MissL in reaction to good news about Indiana Manufacturing.
In the McArdle post she cites Peggy Noonan who really does nail the reaction most people actually get to those calls for more, more, more for Americans.
Noonan in response to Michelle Obama's speech and it applies tonight as well:
Spot on Peggy. Spot on. I like how she lays blame on both parties for their faults. But as far as the Dems are concerned, she does a great job of conveying what more people than not hear when Dems make things out to be worse than they are. Taxpayers are truly beleaguered but they aren't stupid. They know some people are worse off than them and think some forms of help are in order but to sit there and make life seem worse than most people know it to be while putting more pressure on hard working taxpayers and small business owners just doesn't ring well.
It really doesn't.
Peggy Noonan is uncharacteristically bitter
Hard to blame her since this likely marks the end of her hero's trickle up theory of Reaganomics.
It is the economy, stupid.
Bitterness, we have to take that pretty seriously...
....since that's a subject you know all about.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
she's not being bitter at all
I think she hits the nail right on the head. This has nothing to do with any faith in Reagnomics. It's about branding and how the public perceives rhetoric.
My favorite lines.....
They call came to see not just a politician. They came to see Barack Obama.
Folks are thirsty for leadership, especially since we have had none for the last eight years.
It is the economy, stupid.
They came to see a politician
let's keep it real.
Oh Brother
It was the same old tired stuff we've heard coming from liberals for 20 years? Whats new?
Then he talked about Unity?
Then we are not blue, not red states we are the United States...
Boy I got goosebumps... LOL!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
This from the man
who believes in unicorns. :)
Most of his supporters see him not as a politician but as a leader. You can argue they are delusional if you'd like.
Abe Lincoln was also a politician, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a leader.
It is the economy, stupid.
Did you play the teacher ...
...in the Charlie Brown cartoon franchise?
"Wah wah wah, wah wah, wha wahwah wah wah!"
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
No need to argue...
:)
Heh.
This reminds me of the scene from the Life of Brian, where he is running away from the crowd and he loses his shoe. One of the people in the crowd picks it up and says, (paraphrasing here) "It's a sign! Follow the shoe!"
Obama is a lot like Brian in this regard (i.e. being a false Messiah).
I think I just did!
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
It was fun, I'll grant you that!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
I came across this...
...article in the New Criterion
, and it just seemed to some up my take on why the Democrats fail to connect with me, and what I see Barack Obama saying.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
I can agree with some of this
I would change part of that line, though. It's not "like other sorts of post-modern politics," it is "like virtually all other modern politics."
McCain does the exact same thing, or have you already forgotten his rosy vision of all that would be accomplished in his first term: several years of robust economic growth; "victory" in Iraq; larger military, payed for by magical reforms; genocide stopped in Darfur; no more earmarks at all; world food crisis ended... It goes on.
What we have in both cases, Obama and McCain, is a vision for the future. And, no big surprise, both want to see a future that is good. I'm pretty sure that a vast majority of the country would be pretty pleased with either one of these men as President if they actually accomplished the things they say they will. So we have to make a decision based on, among other things: whose vision resonates more with you, who do you believe will be able to actually accomplish at least some of their vision, and the big one - how much does the Republican Party deserved to be punished for the disaster of the Bush Presidency! ;)
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Why?
He who BSes the most usually ends up winning.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
What's the "why" questioning?
Was that a rhetorical "why" that you answered yourself, or are you asking me something about my comment?
Or maybe it's he who BSes the best usually ends up winning?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Rhetorical
And perhaps you're right on quality being better than quantity.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Exaggeration...
He claims 7 things to be accomplished by 2013.
1) Iraq Stabilized - Why not sounds doable.
2) He like obama, will contain proliferation of nuclear weaponry.
3) He will finish the border fence and secure the border, Yeah!
4) He will have underway a comprehensive energy solution.
5) He will cut spending, no earmarks. He always has, so...
6) He will like have in place health care reform.
7) He will get the economy on track.
So why make it sound so out of touch with reality, it is very mush doable, and what John McCain says he will do, he has a long record of doing.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Generally vague
I see only 3a) and 5) as being independently verifiable.
We can examine border fence and see if it is indeed finished and we can look at the federal budget and appropriations bills to determine if spending is down and no earmarks exist.
The rest of those are subjective.
Granted this isn't directly aimed at what you were saying, but it goes to why politicians are intentionally vague. They use qualitative rather than quantitative language. Don't tell me you'll get the "economy back on track". Tell me you'll create X jobs and the GDP will grow by Y percent.
In addition, a lot of his proposals won't see the light of day. A House with 250 Democrats and a Senate with 55 Democrats aren't going to sign off on any of McCain's proposals. And contrary to John's beliefs, I don't see the Democrats losing control of either house before 2012. Obviously, he can blame the failure to enact these proposals on the Democrats, but all the same it won't get done.
Presidents promise too much. It is in the House and Senate that the real work gets done.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Look Stienerman, he's got 7 core things...
Obama on the other hand has a laundry list of promises that run from the same old tiered worn out junk the Democrats trot out every four years
and has been categorically unappreciated by Americans for 25 years, to the ranks of a Ray Bradbury 
novel.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
I said nothing about Obama
He's just as vague as the rest of them.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Action Item:
McCain voted for torture. That is what he did.
What he said was, that he was opposed to it.
vote
It is the economy, stupid.
Torture... LOL! You're something else... n/t
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Your gonna have to explain this one to me.
I admit that I haven't looked into the details of the vote you point to, but on the surface I note (a) that this is an appropriations bill, and (b) McCain voted Nay. So how is that a vote FOR torture?
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
This will explain it
better than I can.
McCain Vote Allows Waterboarding
5+6 = 21
It is the economy, stupid.
Meh.
Political spin, and not very good spin at that since it is so obviously hyperbole. The Bill in question was NOT a simple up or down vote on whether to "ban torture" as this article would have you believe. It is an appropriations bill with probably a whole host of things in it besides this one topic.
He could, therefore, have opposed this Bill for any number of reasons completely unrelated to torture. Given his explicit statement that he opposes torture one can only assume that he opposed the Bill on other grounds.
Do you have anything where McCain is quoted as explicitly stating that he voted the way he did here BECAUSE he supports torture. If not then this is all smoke and mirrors. Sorry to disappoint you.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
meh meh
McCain was an outspoken critic against a bill that contained waterboarding and voted against it.
Then he urged Bush to veto the same bill he voted for. Wha.......? That's political spin.
IN other words, he is having it both ways
It's magic!
It is the economy, stupid.
I mean the article is from Think Progress, what do you expect?
Maybe try some mainstream media sometime, not that they are fairing much better, but at least they have real journalists, with degrees in communications, and know where the lines lay that credible journalists will and won't cross.
Besides, the CIA should be able to water board terrorists, grow up.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
3+8 = 4
The links go to other mainstream media sources.
It is the economy, stupid.
Reservoir Dogs
Whats the point of torturing if they could just claim they started the Great Chicago Fire?
"Torture, because we know you know something, we just don't know what you know."
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
I don't believe 3 for a minute.
McCain will setup a free bus service across the border and hand out guest worker ID cards (a.k.a. tickets to the promised land) like they are candy before he'll have one fence post up.
I mean he's got like 7 houses. That's a lot of lawn to mow. :)
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
No bud, he has promised to do those things in his 1st term. n/t
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
I understand he is promising to do these things.
I just don't believe 3 at all. He authored an amnesty bill for goodness sake. He is lying and pandering on this point.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Hey listen, I'm with you, but Amnesty...? No.
That bill was an immigration bill that would have required extensive application, background, monetary, and qualification based criteria to become a citizen.
Did I agree with it, hell no, but it wasn't Amnesty.
The liberals would have liked you to think that though, but when it was being debated it was considered too rigorous a program for the working immigrant to hurdle, and a non immigration - immigration bill by them, so take it for what it's worth.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
That bill had an odd coalition of supporters
but then again I suppose any compromise bill does.
I agree with you that it wasn't an amnesty bill (not that my agreement is going to help you in your debate with GoRight!).
It had plenty of problems (from whatever political side you looked) but at least it was a start. I give McCain credit for trying to do something, anyway.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I was actually for that bill
I'm a realist on immigration. I'd actually be more than happy to round up and deport every last person not living here legally, but a simple amnesty and NO ONE ELSE IS EVER GETTING IN HERE ILLEGALLY is the cheapest way to go. Rounding everyone up is not workable.
I think that was just about the only time I agreed with Bush.
The easy way to do it is severe penalties for anyone who hires illegal immigrants. Like lost profits for a year for the first offense and liquidation of assets for the 2nd offense.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Sure, it was dressed up in nice frilly do dahs ...
but in my book it was still amnesty. That's why it went down in flames.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
I will find this great talk McCain gave...
...He was addressing his growth as a man, politician, etc and he said in effect that his political life had been to represent the people of Arizona first, and the country second, but now he is faced with that reversal, he has to listen to his party, to the people that are electing him to office, and that the people had spoken, that he understands the border issue is an important one to people, he has heard it, and will do it.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
I am not exaggerating
The text of the speech
is there for all to see. My claims:
And now direct quotes from the speech:
So where have I exaggerated?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
The truth
is an obvious exaggeration!
9+2=12
It is the economy, stupid.
I don't know about a speech he gave in...
...May in Columbus Ohio printed in the NYT.
But I do know what his website says, what I've heard him say, and what an ad he puts out says.
One thing I would be real weary about doing is challenging JM's comments, as I think we all know BO has set the bar very high in terms making claims that nobody has a clue as to how he would do it
, not to mention his outright lies 
, which are numerous! LOL!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Re: I don't know about a speech he gave in...
Now you do! :)
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Yep.. ;-) n/t
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
New User with annoying questions
Hello all -- just signed up. I'm posting this comment in a window on the left entitled "Comments," that seems not to be attached to a particular diary. Is this just a running Open Thread?
What is the etiquette of posting in this section? Should it be related to previous posts?
Welcome from the second oldest user! LOL!
The open thread is a daily diary that is open to any discussion.
If you have a big topic you would like to discuss post a diary.
Glad to have you, even if you are ANOTHER democrat... ;-)
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Thanks
And not just another Democrat, but a Social Democrat at that. Based on your username, I'm guessing we'll disagree on a few things!
It looks like some of those comments in that left window are, in fact, attached to diaries. Mine, of course, was not. Does that window on the left just show any new comments, from multiple sources?
By the way, I had a fantastic idea recently for a website where Lefties and Righties could debate eachother. Looks like someone beat me to it, again! It's the story of my life. I thought I was going to make a million dollars when I came up with an idea for a frozen drink machine, like a Slurpee machine, that would make alcoholic drinks like Pina Coladas. A week later I saw one in a bar. Oh well, guess I'm doomed to stay a step behind!
Yep, that's right, it just shows recent comments
from anyone posted anywhere.
You should start your website anyway, the more bipartisan debate sites the better.
Welcome to Swords Crossed!
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Well Revel...
...I know you're a
marxistliberal Democrat, but there is still America, and we still have such a thing as Capitalism, which is always looking for a better mouse trap... ;-)Of course with an impending Obama administration you won't be able to afford to be in business for yourself... Oh well?
Hey, you could always vote Republican, and we could celabrate with an ice cold Pina Colada!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
You're starting already!
And I haven't even found all the buttons yet! You guys are vicious!
I can see I'm gonna have to keep on my toes around here...
Well, I'm just saying...
By the way, the color of the bar on your post's gives an indication of who you're dealing with, like I have a Red bar, like you should have, but you have a blue bar, like everyone else...
Red = Rep, Blue = Dem, etc.
Just between you and I, watch out for those with black bars... ;-)
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
You should recruit a few more conservatives =)
We'll work on it. The site functions much better when it's roughly balanced.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I should huh....
...Then we could rotate taking turns keeping an eye on Miss L... LOL!
Just kidding Miss Liberty! ;-)
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Very, very interesting...? Hmmm....
From: Erick Erickson
I noticed this yesterday. I've gone through the photostream.
Now here is my question:
Where are the American flags?
They are not there. They do not exist at this
convention.
They briefly existed
, but they're gone. Not
there.
Where are the American flags?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman