Barack Obama and the Strategy That Must Not Be Named
September was another month of declining violence in Iraq, both for civilians and military personnel. Below are the pictures, and I'm guessing that Barack Obama would prefer that you don't see them.
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Once the progress in Iraq became all too obvious, even to Obama, he credited the success to the increase in troops, the troops themselves, the Sunni Awakening movements, and Muqtada al Sadr, but I haven't heard him say a single word about the actual strategy that helped turn Iraq around. The surge in troop levels was only part of the overall plan.
We shouldn't forget that when violence was at its very worst in Iraq, the freshman Senator from Illinois crafted a bill that would withdraw all combat brigades in less than sixteen months. The repercussions of such a withdrawal at such a time would have been disastrous, in my opinion.
Going forward, this issue cannot be more significant because Obama is proposing more troops for Afghanistan, yet he hasn't said a thing about what those troops would actually do when they get there. "Get al Qaeda" isn't a plan, it's a hope, and we know hope is not a plan, even when words like "change" are thrown in. McCain has proposed a counterinsurgency (COIN) strategy along the lines of the successful strategy employed in Iraq. Obama has just said "get al Qaeda", or strengthen NATO, or something like that. I've looked at Obama's issues , and he has no plan for Afghanistan. This is one of the reasons why I say that Obama is a military and foreign policy lightweight.
In Baghdad, residents are saying "we should go outside and live". Yes, risks remain and al Qaeda can still pull off suicide terrorist attacks, but the city and nation are significantly safer. On the national political stage, progress is slower and more difficult to come by, but parliament passed
a provinical elections law and Anbar province has been passed from coalition forces to the national government. A Defense Department report to Congress cites
improving conditions but a still-fragile environment, which in turn affects the pace of conditions-based troop withdrawals.
But with Iraq quieted, the challenge going forward is Afghanistan-Pakistan. Al Qaeda is headquartered in the Pakistani frontier areas, and so are the more belligerent Taliban leaders . There's little we can do in Pakistan except urge the new president to take control of his own country. We can help tribal leaders
wrest control from Taliban and al Qaeda chieftans, but since those Pashtun leaders don't have U.S. firepower behind them, the chances for success are questionable. One measure of the state of disarray in Pakistan are the increased number
of suicide bombings. Since July 2007, nearly 1,200 have been killed.
But putting aside whiny defeatist remarks from British ambassadors, there's plenty we can do in Afghanistan. It looks like General Petraeus is going to push
for a comprehensive COIN strategy for Afghanistan, and it's long overdue. As it stands now, we don't have sufficient force projection, and we have European troops who refuse to engage in kinetic combat operations. This needs to change, and I hope it will. This
Atlantic article is worth a full read, and I'll excerpt some fair chunks:
The U.S. engagement in Afghanistan is foundering because of the endemic failure to engage and protect rural villages, and to immunize them against insurgency. Many analysts have called for more troops inside the country, and for more effort to eliminate Taliban sanctuaries outside it, in neighboring Pakistan. Both developments would be welcome. Yet neither would solve the central problem of our involvement: the paradigm that has formed the backbone of the international effort since 2003—extending the reach of the central government—is in fact precisely the wrong strategy.
National government has never much mattered in Afghanistan. Only once in its troubled history has the country had something like the system of strong central government that’s mandated by the current constitution. That was under the "Iron Emir," Abdur Rehman, in the late 19th century, and Rehman famously maintained control by building towers of skulls from the heads of all who opposed him, a tactic unavailable to the current president, Hamid Karzai.
Politically and strategically, the most important level of governance in Afghanistan is neither national nor regional nor provincial. Afghan identity is rooted in the woleswali: the districts within each province that are typically home to a single clan or tribe. Historically, unrest has always bubbled up from this stratum—whether against Alexander, the Victorian British, or the Soviet Union. Yet the woleswali are last, not first, in U.S. military and political strategy.
Large numbers of U.S. and NATO troops are now heavily concentrated in Kabul, Kandahar, and other major cities. Thousands of U.S. personnel are stationed at Bagram Air Force Base, for instance, which is complete with Burger King, Dairy Queen, and a shopping center, but is hundreds of miles from the heart of the insurgency. Meanwhile, the military’s contact with villagers in remote areas where the Taliban operate is rare, typically brief, and almost always limited to daylight hours.
The Taliban are well aware that the center of gravity in Afghanistan is the rural Pashtun district and village, and that Afghan army and coalition forces are seldom seen there. With one hand, the Taliban threaten tribal elders who do not welcome them. With the other, they offer assistance. (As one U.S. officer recently noted, they’re "taking a page from the Hezbollah organizations in Lebanon, with their own public works to assist the tribes in villages that are deep in the inaccessible regions of the country. This helps support their cause with the population, making it hard to turn the population in support of the Afghan government and the coalition.")
The rural Pashtun south has its own systems of tribal governance and law, and its people don’t want Western styles of either. But nor are they predisposed to support the Taliban, which espouses an alien and intolerant form of Islam, and goes against the grain of traditional respect for elders and decision by consensus. Re-empowering the village councils of elders and restoring their community leadership is the only way to re-create the traditional check against the powerful political network of rural mullahs, who have been radicalized by the Taliban. But the elders won’t commit to opposing the Taliban if they and their families are vulnerable to Taliban torture and murder, and they can hardly be blamed for that.
To reverse its fortunes in Afghanistan, the U.S. needs to fundamentally reconfigure its operations, creating small development and security teams posted at new compounds in every district in the south and east of the country. This approach would not necessarily require adding troops, although that would help—200 district-based teams of 100 people each would require 20,000 personnel, one-third of the 60,000 foreign troops currently in the country.
If this sounds familiar, it should. I've read similar material two years ago about Iraq, prior to the Republicans losing the majority in Congress. A key difference is that Afghanistan is more decentralized than Iraq, so it makes even more sense to move troops out of the few large forward operating bases and into many smallish combat outposts. The Marines in Helmand province have already demonstrated that this strategy works. For a good uptake on the current situation in Afghanistan, Herschel Smith
has a comprehensive post on the subject.
(Hat tip to Engram for the graphs.)



Comments :
Of course Obama has a plan for Afghanistan
He's been remarkably consistent in stating in precise terms what he would do, in fact. Here is a speech
from July 15, 2008:
He made almost exactly the same points a whole year earlier
too! Meanwhile McCain was saying until recently
that additional US forces were not needed in Afghanistan.
So, to recap, Obama's plan is for:
(1) Additional US troops to provide boots on the ground
(2) Multinational support
(3) Step up training of local police and military forces
(4) Significant spending on non-military economic support
(5) Secure Pakistan border, take out high priority targets if possible
This seems quite consistent with how we have handled Iraq under Petraeus -- who will now also oversee Afghanistan, right? What exactly is it that you feel would not be done under an Obama administration that would take place under a McCain administration as relates to Afghanistan?
Oh, and nice to see you around here again =)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I've looked at McCain's
Issues
and he has no plan for Afghanistan either ;-)
P.S. I put the images side-by-side, hope you don't mind. Also if that's messing with anyone's ability to view the site easily let me know, I can change it back.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I'll give you 3 and 4,
and thanks for that link. But additional forces in Afghanistan, both U.S. and international, is foolish and naive without a coherent strategy in the first place. "Take the fight to the terrorists" is a nice slogan but has no real meaning without Obama telling voters how he intends to accomplish this. Same with securing a 1,000-mile long border. Bush was saying the same stuff about Iraq in 2004 as Obama said about Afghanistan in 2007. I don't see how Obama can proclaim that his plan in Afghanistan will succeed when we already saw that approach fail in Iraq.
Obama will simply not acknowledge that he supports a COIN strategy in either Iraq or Afghanistan. In his speech, he said he would not "repeat the mistakes of Iraq" in Afghanistan, which at the time was a direct rejection of the surge strategy that was in place. To me, that is worrisome because (1) it shows that, like Bush, he refuses to acknowledge his mistakes and (2) it shows a lack of understanding of proven military doctrine.
McCain's position
is that we need to a employ a similar strategy as in Iraq. As troop levels decrease in Iraq, they can increase in Afghanistan. Granted, he was later to the party than Obama on troop levels, but at least he came to the party and he came with the right plan.
BTW, I'm back here again because I was banned at The Forvm for responding inappropriately to posting rules violators, but I think I'll spend more time here anyway after I'm out of the penalty box. The incivility there has worsened.
I don't know that he's ever said
"clear and hold" but he's noted the problems with airstrikes, so I'm guessing he's envisioning something along the lines of a COIN strategy -- except at far below the "required" level of forces, just as Iraq was, since there simply aren't enough troops available.
I would think that Petraeus would call the shots on how the additional troops were deployed, unless Obama (or McCain) were extremely hands-on, but your link (thanks) does show that McCain is using language more consistent with how Petraeus handled Iraq.
Despite our efforts things can get plenty uncivil here too -- but there's fewer of us, which sort of keeps arguments from reaching critical mass as quickly. Elections seem to bring out the partisan impulses in everyone.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I've never heard him say "clear-hold-build",
and I've never heard him say a word in support of the counterinsurgency plan that Petraeus laid out. His unyielding 16-month withdrawal plan is a direct rejection of the COIN plan because his focus is on leaving instead of providing security. To me, that is a major concern, although it may be moot depending on the upcoming SoFA and SFA agreements with Iraq.
Obama has also said that he would be the commander-in-chief. The generals will make the recommendations but the ultimate decisions are up to him. How Obama will react toward Petraeus' plans is highly uncertain to me. He's given no real indications or endorsements in favor of what Petraeus has done, which is worrisome since Obama's proposals while campaigning were in diametric opposition to what Petraeus put forth.
Even though there may be
some disagreement between Petraeus and Obama, it is pretty obvious that they both respect each other. I'd say that's a good start.
Obama's unyielding plan is to try and get the US to stop bribing Iraqi's, and Iraqi politicians so that they take responsibility for their own nation and it's budget.
The definition of 'victory' is what is an acceptable level of chaos and how do we lower US troop numbers safely.
I don't think that a potential commander in chief needs to parrot talking points and phrases of a general to understand a situation.
In a sense Gen. Petraeus has been a community organizer, rebuilding Iraq block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood from the bottom up, with an assist from the military and a lot of US $$$ dough; a sort of militant community organizer backed by the authority of the US government. There might be more in common between the two than first catches the eye. They both understand that things change from the bottom up.
I'm only half stupid
Anbar province
The coalition just handed it over to the national government, which means that the Iraqi government pays the Sons of Iraq, not us.
I don't know what you mean about "parroting". I'm not criticizing Obama for not saying things the way I want him to, I'm criticizing him his failure to give one iota of support to a strategy that is working in Iraq and is likely to work in Afghanistan. This is an issue of principle, not verbiage.
The "Petraeus is a community organizer" schtick is clever, but to play along, it makes Obama's complete rejection of Petraeus' community organizing that much more bewildering.
weight the costs
and the benefits.
We don't know what would have happend if Gen. Abizaid would have had his druthers, which was no surge.
If the issue is principle and not verbiage than Obama believes we should never had been in Iraq in the first place.
I don't think at heart Obama believes in rejecting Gen. Petraeus or his skills as a community organizer. I think both men, like I said previously have a deep respect for each other. Both realize that silly gotcha games over verbiage for the sake of political gamesmanship are pointless.
Besides I think you mischaracterize intentionally when you use rhetoric like "Obama's complete rejection of Gen Petraeus", which is a false.
I'm only half stupid
Changing subjects
This post isn't about the decision to go to war, it's about the best way of prosecuting an existing war.
Obama's Iraq De-Escalation Act of 2007 couldn't be a clearer rejection of the surge strategy. Petraeus proposed "A" and Obama countered with "Z". Instead of moving soldiers out of FOBs and into COPs, Obama wanted them all going in the other direction, all the way out of the country. I've not heard Obama say a word of support for the Petraeus strategy, ever.
Frankly my dear
I don't give a damn.
If you want to measure all things Iraq by 'the unbridled success of the surge' then let that be the beginning of time for you, and the start of your victory dance.
There are other areas of concern that I chose to peg on the tail of that elephant in the room.
Over a half a trillion of 'off budget' dollars later we are still there and there has been no treaty signed or victory declared.
Brother can you spare a brigade or three to come home, in light of this glorious success. Or are we still stuck in the sand?
I'm only half stupid
Frankly my dear....You are a JOKE!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007
Well, this all sounds good ... but we also know that when it looked like the going was getting tough in Iraq that Obama not only signed onto but actually authored this: Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007
.
I have no reason to believe that should things get dicy in Afghanistan that he wouldn't act exactly the same way ... to tuck his tail between his legs and run wimpering home. That attitude is fine for a do nothing Senator from Illinois but for the Commander in Chief? Not worth the risk, IMHO. We need someone that can be counted on to see these things through once we've started them. Barack Obama is obviously not such a person.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Unfortunately now, that we see the sucess in Iraq
You never hear about it anymore. The democrats deserve tobe voted for out for aceptiing defeat ( in their own words), but instead it looks like (Though there still is hope) were about to reward them with a landslide victory
Reduction in violence =/= success
The point of the surge was to halt the violence so political headway could be made. It did manage to tamp down the violence (although Sadr's truce and the Sunni awakening probably deserve more credit for Iraq as a whole) but there's been essentially no political reconciliation to speak of. Instead Maliki has been acting more and more Saddam-esque and has been positioning himself into an anti-american stance in preparation for the upcoming elections (which have subsequently been delayed because the parliament can't function).
So where is exactly is the success?
What we've seen is a temporary reprieve.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Drop in Hatfield-McCoy violence after McCoys move away!!!
Not to mention that many Sunni and Shias moved to their respective homogeneous areas.
edit: I should have read below.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Yes I think reducing violence is a sucess
And I imagine if you saw this dramatic of a drop in violence in your neighborhood you would see it as sucessful regardless of whether there was perfect progress in politics.
the cost of that reduction
might not make me so happy.
If my house was bombed, my old neighborhood was in tatters, half my family were refugees in another country, and I had lost an uncle a sister and a child the mere fact that the shooting stopped would be welcome. You can call that success, but I guess it depends on how you measure it and who is doing the measuring.
I'm only half stupid
Depends
If I saw this drop in violence because the local police had temporarily hired an extra 50 officers then I'd probably wonder what happens when the extra cops are discharged...
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
No political reconciliation?
There's been quite a bit, and the progress at the national level didn't really start until this year. There are plenty of concerns out there and plenty left to be achieved, but Ryan Crocker reported earlier this year that significant progress has been made on 15 of 18 benchmarks. To me, that's more enough reason to keep the strategy in place.
key words "significant progress"
i.e. the objectives are not completed, not successful, just making progress.
Well great. And when will they actually be done? Especially now that the surge has expired and the sunni awakening appears about to end? Will this "progress" halt in the face of the inevitable rise in violence?
The fact remains that the benchmarks were supposed to be met by the end of the surge, not in progress. It was ultimately a failure.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Uh yeah sure, if a war isn't won it's lost.
Good thing we there aren' people like you about ready to take over the country... oh wait...
or it's just very very very expensive
not that it matters if to on the right side of freedom in Iraq. It's just curious that the staunchest supporters of the war are the most vocal opponents of any tax increase whatsoever that might help to pay for it.
Odd that for the sake of the troops, the war, the economy and the nation, that taxes to support the troops to victory are seen as a violent action against your liberty here at home.
I'm only half stupid
Not following you
The surge was a last desperate attempt to manage to "win". It failed. Since we have no way to make another go of it, nor any collective will to stick out the decade+ it would take to make a real effert at nation building we're going to pull out. It might be a year from now or it might be three, but it will happen. And when we do Iraq will still be a basket case. It will still be weak and open to foreign manipulation (principly Iran and the Saudis).
We are not in a position where we can win. The only questions then are how long it takes us to lose and how big the bill is before we cut our losses.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Just because you type it ...
doesn't make it so.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Hal-e-frickin-lulia!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
"In progress" doesn't equal failure
The surge in troops has ended, but not the ongoing surge strategy, so I think your benchmarks are off.
If I tell you you have 6 months to meet deadlines
and at the end of that 6 months you say you made "progress" guess what my evalution of your work will be?
Failure.
I didn't hire you to make progress. I hired you to get a job done.
The job in Iraq is not done. But more to the point, time has run out, meaning the job isn't going to get done. Petraeus made an effort but ultimately it was too little too late, and weighed against goals he couldn't possibly achieve (seeing as he had no real control over the Iraqi government).
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
That's not how war works
and it kind of scary that we might get someone in office who thinks it is.
John the war part was over back in 2003
it ended about the time we pulled down the big statue. What we've been doing since then is nation building, or occupation, if you aren't into euphemisms.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I don't care what you call it
We shouldn't treat Iraq like some sort of business endeavor, where we bailout if we don't meet our objectives on time. This is a military endeavor, and we can't just bailout and leave Iraq to anarchy, terrorism, and genocide, because we didn't meet some deadline which doesn't exist nor should it exist.
You make it sound like we have another option
but we don't. We've failed and we have nothing more we can do except continue to throw away lives staving off recognition of that.
There are times in life when you have to cut your losses.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Is the NIMBY philosophy ok?
What about if the Iraqis tell the US troops that they have to leave? They want the US gone by 2010, they accepted a compromise of a 2011 withdrawal. 2010 is heartbeat away.
And lets not forget the mantra "We're fighting 'them' over there, so that we don't have to fight 'them' over here." Which is the NIMBY approach to where to fight terrorist.
There is also the false dichotomy that if "we" stay then Iraq will be free and democratic in their own way, but if the US leaves then all hell will break lose.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
If there democratically elected leaders tell us to leave
Than we should judge whether or not there's a significant enough terrorist threat to stay. I would lean toward leaving when they too though; however, I think I might keep troops as close as possible to Iraq so that were ready to reenter if things do get out of hand.
Luckily we aren't focused on deadlines ...
but on success, so progress is the more important measure.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Another factor
in reducing violence was increasing ethnic homogenization
:
There are signs
that refugees were returning and the Iraqi government is taking steps
to encourage that return, including providing financial assistance, so hopefully Baghdad will be reborn as a stable but diverse city.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I don't understand why this point
is being completely ignored in the conversation. Whatever else we can hypothesize about the reasons for the decrease in violence in Iraq, the ethnic geography of Baghdad seems to be not only the most convincing (although I'll grant I'm more predisposed to believing it), but also the one that provides the best empirical evidence as an immediate reason for a decline in violence.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
The success of the word success
in relation to the surge, which has not resulted in victory with a capital V, will not be employed in Afganistan.
I wonder what the Iraqi's think of the success of the victory of the surge that has caused us to ignore our Win in Iraq, which is out of the news?
The word surge
will not be used in Afganistan, said Gen. David D. McKiernan, who is now the head of the NATO led coalition in Afghanistan.
I wonder if the word surge means something different to the Iraqi's than it does to Americans?
I'm only half stupid
"Surge" was never a good word because...
...we didn't just surge the numbers of troops in Iraq. We substantially changed our way of doing business there. I can understand why McKiernan would want to use different terminology.
I'm sure Americans have a different view of the "surge" than Iraqis do because Iraqis have seen how it's been implemented firsthand.
As for the use of "victory", I don't use that term because we haven't achieved it and I'm not sure we ever will. I define victory as an Iraq that is a free, non-theocratic and self-sustaining representative republic that is peaceful and can protect itself and doesn't threaten its neighbors. Tall order.
Before you waggle that finger at Obama regarding the surge...
...please recognize that we do not know what the effect would have been of a gradual withdrawal instead of the surge. It may have led to chaos or it may have lessened tensions and led to a reduction in violence. We do know that the surge came at a large additional cost to the taxpayer, and while I suppose it can be argued whether it cost the blood of additional soldiers, it can't be disputed that it has cost the troops additional time away from their loved ones and other hardships. Initiatives such as the surge which cost so much OUGHT to have some positive effect, and the only reason why the surge looks so good is because it is viewed against the backdrop of year after year of the Bush Administration's bungling mismanagement of Iraq.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Did anybody ever argue that a reduction in troops would leave
Iraq stable, the arguement I heard was that Iraq was lost, meaning that neither Dems nor Repubs thought pulling out would lead to victory.
There's certainly an argument
that the presence of hordes of heavily armed and culturally insensitive american troops increased tensions and sparked at least some violence. Particularly when things like the Haditha massacre, wedding massacre, and the gang rape and murder of a 14 year old girl (and murder of her family) keep happening.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
The thing is the Democrats
have been focused on saying that we've lost, and seem to me to basically say that Iraq's was/is going to be a disaster no matter what so we should leave. If they would make the case that we should have less troops in order to win in Iraq I would listen. However, when faced with a party that treat an important military operation like a homework assignment with strict deadlines and give up when we don't meet them, or simply withdraw regardless of the consequence to Iraq because that's what they think is right on principal or because they think we have lost, and a party that on the side of getting the job done I'm going with the party that isn't giving up.
Is persistence really so great a virtue
when it has no chance of success? Your argument is reminding me greatly of the Boxer character from Animal Farm. He's the old draft horse who, no matter what happens, simply works harder. he never stops to evaluate his goal or if the pigs might be lying to him. He just keeps doing what he's been doing, only more so. Until of course he dies from the strain and the pigs sell him for glue.
Giving up is not only often reasonable it is the only reasonable choice when the cause is hopeless. Success then lies in not aligning yourself with hopeless causes.
How many more kids should die before we pack it in? And why should they? There is no question but that we will quit Iraq, and we will do so before the goals have been achieved.
So then why not get it over with and stop throwing away lives without cause...
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I don't think it's hopeless
and the drop in violence points to that. I don't think the lives of our soldiers are being wasted, they're lowering the violence that would happen if we left and caused a power vacuum. Democracy take a long time to develop, and the longer we keep Iraq from becoming a Middle Eastern Darfur, the more life we will have saved. I get the feeling that the Dems have a knee jerk reaction of erroring on the side of surrender, I error on the side of victory.
Alright
Let me pose two questions then that I think will help:
1) You acknowledge that democratic nation building is a long endeavor, do you really see evidence that the US is willing and capable of maintaining the kinds of forces and cash flow it will take for the time it will take? Whether or not you think we should, do you really think we will when the war is already extremely unpopular, the military is stretched thin, events in Afghanistan are getting worse, North Korea, Iran, and Russia are flexing muscles, and we're facing a severe economic crisis at home?
2) You say the longer we keep Iraq from imploding the more lives we save. Isn't this backwards since all we are doing is delaying the implosion all the while more people die? Is there any reason to believe the eventual chaos will be less severe if we kick it down the road a few more years?
The way to save lives is to let the thing collapse, try to mitigate the worst of the horror to follow and wait for a new order to emerge. Fighting hard to maintain a deteriorating status quo is a losing proposition.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I think staying longer can cause the country to be more stable
when we leave, instead of falling to pieces. It's not going to be have the stability of America or Europe, but I think we can and are making it better. I would listen more the the Dems arguements if I felt they would acknowledge the other side of the possibility of stabilizing the country, and would explain why they thought their plan was better, however, I get the feeling that the left just has a knee-jerk reaction that every war is Vietnam, the USA military can never be sucessful, and countries that arent' free are destined to stay that way.
Let me put it this way:
1) Wars where we set ourselves up against a native guerrilla movement do indeed have some strong associations with Vietnam.
2) The US military is exceptionally good at blowing things up. If you want something blown up (and don't mind a bit o' collateral damage) then you really can't do better than the US armed forces. But civilian occupation and policing? Nation building? "Spreading democracy"? No those things our military sucks at badly.
What does it tell you that decades after Vietnam and years into Iraq the Army still had no counterinsurgency plan until Petraeus wrote one? This is not one of our military's strengths, far from it.
3) Countries that have chosen to be ruled by strongmen will continue to do so until *they* choose otherwise. Forcing people to be democratic is a non-starter because they will simply vote for a new strongman (hello, Mr. Maliki and your Ministry of
Using Power Drills on SunnisInterior.)It isn't up to us to force freedom. Our history is perfect example. The American Revolution was assisted by foreign countries, certainly, but it originated with us. It had to, or it would never have worked. If we hadn't been constantly interfering in Iraq Saddam would almost certainly have been killed by his people long ago. We first interfered by giving him money and weapons. Then later when we turned against him and started bombing things, we became a convenient boogeyman for him to blame the nation's problems (in some cases with merit, often not).
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
2. True, obviously holding
2. True, obviously holding an occupation is not the military's speciality, however, that doesn't change the fact that it may be neccesary and we need to learn how to do it.
3. Here's where I have to disagree with you. The Kurds didn't choose to be wiped out, Iraqi citizens did not choose to be gang raped and tortured - Sadaam ruled by force and not by consent of the people. Now, I don't believe that we should force Democracy on countries that do not want it, I figure it is possible for people to prefer a monarchy... I'm for encouraging democracy, but not forcing it. However, I am in favor of standing up against human right's abuses, I think borders are a somewhat arbitrary divider when it comes to defending our fellow Humans from being wiped out. If the state of New York started wiping out the Jews in New York I doubt you would say that if the Jews aren't standing up for themselves we shouldn't help them. In that case you would think we should help those who can't fight for themselves - I don't think manmade borders make a difference in that moral imperitave.
Straw Man or STO of non-applicable hypethetical situation?
I'm also anti-tumors, but I would support a family member's decision to operate on an inoperable brain tumor.
The question is not why the Dems are pro-tumors and the people of the GOP are anti-tumors. Its why the GOP seem to have thought the tumor could have been removed without causing more harm to patient and that's why many of the anti-war crowd [who are not "pro-Saddam"] thought the tumor was inoperable.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Tlaloc stated the position
Tlaloc stated the position that we should not defend those who do not defend themselves, I simply pointed out that clearly one wouldn't hold this position in regards to a group of people in our country, so the reaon for apparently what changes his position is the border, while I can certainly sympathize with culture concerns about how much good we good to for someone around the world, I don't think borders change the moral responsibility to protect humans from atrocity when possible. The ability to be able to protect people across the globe should be a consideration, the fact that there unable to defend themselves isn't a consideration.
Not exactly what I meant
There are a few distinctions to make here-
1) There are ways we can help unilaterally without going to the extreme of regime change. For instance we can provide humanitarian assistance and accept refugees. Or in the specific case of the kurds we could, you know, not give an autocratic ahole a bunch of chemical weapons and then pretend to be shocked, shocked I say, when he uses them.
2) In cases where real regime change is needed we can certainly be a part of a real international movement towards that end. Think WW2. What we shouldn't do is go gallivanting off trying to remake the world as we see fit with no regard to history, religions, and geopolitics.
A great many of the big problems in the world can be traced back to similar actions by the brits- Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, Iraq/Kuwait are all examples of places where the brits decided they'd draw the maps how they wanted and created big problems.
Let me you ask you this- how many unilateral geopolitical actions by the US have ended up being positive for using the long run? Not overthrowing Iran. Not placing Saddam in Iraq. Not Vietnam. Not shielding Israel from the UN.
Unilateral here means action by us either alone or only with the support of coerced allies (coalition of the "willing") or only with immediate allies (England) but not with a broader coalition representing some significant swath of humanity.
3) People are always able to defend themselves. Iraq proves that handily. A determined guerrilla force that is made up mostly of a ethnic minority of a medium size country has bogged down the most advanced military in the world for years, often using nothing more complicated than home made explosives and cellphones. People can always fight back, and if hey won't why should anyone else do it for them?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
How is asking Iraqi's
to step up to the plate and take charge of their own country, saying Iraqi's lose, or the US loses?
Using imported cheap labor to rebuild cities in Iraq, instead of Iraqi's to rebuild their own cities, is about as popular in Iraq as it is in New Orleans.
Why not give the folks that have a vested interested in reconstructing their own neighborhoods get the pay and the satisfaction of doing it themselves.
I don't think anyone has a clear sense of the goals in Iraq.
The Iraqi politicians have been taking US dollars and not using it to help out the locals.
Saying win or victory just sounds good but there has to be something behind it other than words.
A win for the US means contracts for oil, a US Embassy of lavish proportions, permanent military bases, and Pizza Hut in Fallujah?
Turkey has had unrest and violence. Lebanon has been destabilized. Iran and Hezbollah have become more influential, especially since they fund the reconstruction projects of war ravaged towns. Afghanistan has been ignored and is rapidly destabilizing. Jordan is swollen to the breaking point with homeless Iraqi refugees. Islam and muslims have been denigrated generally for having the 'wrong' religion. And Pakistan that has nukes is an ally yet home to al-Queda which is resurrecting itself.
Invading Iraq was an incredibly stupid move.
I'm only half stupid
But we do know that when they said the surge would fail ...
they were wrong.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4McCain, a year earlier, had said that things would be better...
...if we just "stayed the course":
So he was wrong too. The difference, of course, is that McCain actually got his wish for the additonal year of the "stay the course" policy that he fronted in 2005, so we can actually see how badly his chosen course of action failed. We'll never know what would have happened if Barack Obama had gotten his way in 2007.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Actually, no we don't know he was wrong on that point ...
any more than we know:
and for exactly the same reason, neither of those scenarios actually played out. My, skymutt, you have forgotten your own argument from two posts above? :)
My comment, however, does not suffer from this problem. They (the Democrat leadership) were saying that we shouldn't have a surge because it was a failed policy that was doomed to failure (I am paraphrasing) BUT the surge actually DID happen and we now know that they WERE wrong on that point.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4No, McCain got his way in 2005...
McCain fronted the stay the course line in 2005, and we stayed the course the rest of 2005, all of 2006, and into 2007, and things got much worse, not better as McCain thought. We most definitely DO know he was wrong on that!
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
What definition of "stay the course" are you using?
This all depends on what "stay the course" means, does it not?
One COULD make the argument that sending more troops actually does fall within the category of "staying the course" (i.e. staying in Iraq through thick or thin, using our military presence to help maintain order in support of the required changes). In support of this meme, consider the following from your same article:
Based on this "stay the course" basically means "stay in the fight until the end." That's also consistent with his other commentary like "we might be there for 100 years" (Paraphrased) that the left also likes to complain about.
So if one takes the big picture view, a legitimate case can be made that we HAVE "stayed the course" in the sense that McCain actually meant it given the discussion above.
Now you might wish to try and focus on the 1 year timeframe he mentioned, but even that doesn't really help your case because McCain's statement is open to so much interpretation it could have meant almost anything. Let's deconstruct it here:
What does "situation on the ground" mean, actually? What specifically was he referring to? I know what you want to CLAIM he was referring to because it will setup an easy strawman for you but that doesn't necessarily make it so. How is progress in this case actually measured?
If we look solely at the single dimension of violence as a result of terrorist suicide attacks and IEDs, yes there was an escallation of such incidents as we continued to press forward and pursue the al Qaeda factions within the country (i.e. we stayed the course). But this fact is NOT inconsistent with the progress towards the goal of eliminating them. Progress on that front was being made throughout the entire timeframe you mention, even the 1 year timeframe. As these factions became increasingly squeazed they quite expectedly put on a push of their own to try and turn world opinion against the continued operations.[1] Throughout this entire period we were actively engaging and eliminating those al Qaeda factions that then existed in Iraq. That IS progress so it supports McCain's statement, not refutes it as you seek to claim.
Political progress? Maybe not as much as we like, but still progress is being made and has been all along. But what of the rest of McCain's statement:
Progress is being made "in a lot of Iraq". Gee, that has been true for a long time. Much of the violence had been contained within a relatively small section of the country so how was McCain wrong?
How much progress is "a fair amount of progress"? Again, I know what you want to CLAIM that means in this context but that doesn't necessarily match what McCain actually meant at the time. The terrorists in Iraq numbered in what, the hundreds? The thousands? How many of them do we have to capture or kill, therefore, to have made "a fair amount of progress"? We were regularly killing them by the tens and hundreds through this period so, again, how was McCain wrong?
Is he only wrong when measured against your definition of progress? Most likely so. Will you have defined "progress" in a manner most antagonistic to McCain's position? Again, most likely so. As a result, I remain unconvinced by your rhetoric.
As you know, I myself don't particularly care for McCain at all. I would prefer it if he simply dried up and blew away, but that doesn't mean that I have any incentive to let him get unfairly maligned either.
We do know that the Democrats were pushing hard for exactly the OPPOSITE of "stay the course" as discussed above based specifically on the premise that it was doomed to failure (paraphrasing) because it was merely an extension of an already failed policy. The reality is, that it wasn't a failed policy ... it merely hadn't succeeded within the arbitrary timeframes set by the Democrats to make political hay.
------------------------------------------------------
[1] On a seperate note, we of course now know that the Democrats were either (a) willing participants who sought to help the terrorists further those goals, or (b) they were merely useful idiots and tools of the terrorist propoganda machine. You can take your pick.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Wow, endnotes... impressive!
I generally agree with you on your theory of the meaning of "stay the course".
I think there's a bit of nuance you might be missing here, however. "Stay the course" was Bush's mantra that encapsulated his war plan. He repeatedly usesd that exact catch-phrase to refer to his preferred course of action. Bush defined "stay the course":
So "stay the course" may have meant roughly what you said, but only because that's how Bush defined it. When a guy like McCain, who had supported Bush, parrotted the exact same phrase in the same context, he was more or less signing off on Bush's plans, whatever those might have been. Therefore, when Bush "stayed the course" throughtout the rest of 2005, all of 2006, and into 2007, and it was a miserable failure, it is fair to say that McCain supported that and was wrong to have done so.
If John McCain's definition of "improvement in the situation on the ground" in the next year encompassed an escalation in violence like we saw in Iraq in the year after he made that statement, don't you think that the "straight talker" should have explained that to the American People? Because the American People certainly didn't see that escalation in violence as "improvement on the ground". One year later, only 8% of the American People thought that the situation in Iraq was getting better.
Given the blood and treasure that was being spent, I simply disagree that there was a "fair" amount of progress being made in Iraq at that time, even if we allow that temporary periods of increasing violence is not always inconsistent with progress. The infrastructure situation was not improving; the battle for hearts and minds was going badly; there was little to no political progress; the training of Iraqi security forces was going slower than planned. I'm sure one could identify isolated areas of progress, but not a "fair amount" of progress given the amount of blood and treasure being spent in Iraq at the time and the fact that we had already been there over 2 1/2 years. Do you disagree?
It hadn't succeeded by the standards of the vast majority of the American People. It may not have been a failed policy in the hands of better leadership, but in the hands of George Bush it was a miserable failure, and it was not entirely unpredictable that it was going to be a miserable failure when McCain parrotted Bush's "stay the course" line in 2005.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
So "stay the course" may
(1) I fail to see how this bit of nuance changes anything. McCain meant what he meant regardless of who defined it.
(2) And apparently signing of on Bush's plan (i.e. to stay in the fight until we "win") was the right decision since, by definition, it was that plan that lead us to where we are now. Increasing the number of troops in Iraq is NOT a departure from "stay int he fight until we win". It is just being adaptive to the conditions on the ground, and "stay the course" was never defined as "dogmatically stick to a static plan". Bush's plan was to let the Generals on the ground make the decisions and that's what happened.
Luckily in this case "success" is not defined in terms of "what the American people think." As we can see here, 92% of the American people were idiots, so why would we care what they think? :)
Fine, you are entitled to your opinion here. I assume I am entitled to mine as well? In this case we disagree.
See above for why this doesn't matter, nor should it.
With all due respect, it was not a failed policy even in the hands of Bush. We are still "staying the course" are we not? That policy is what lead us to where we are today.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4And apparently signing of
Whoa there compadre. You say that as if Iraq is a prosperous shining beacon of democracy for the world, and that things happened according to plan the whole way along. Anybody with more memory than a squid can recall the bungling mismanagement of this war at nearly every step of the way, and anybody with two eyes can see that Iraq is just going to be nothing more than a garden variety Islamic petro-state at best coming out of this. So I'm not at all satisfied with "where we are now", five and a half years, 4000+ American lives, and nearly a trillion dollars into this debacle, red-barred Bush apologist spin notwithstanding.
Yeah, I forgot, you think that the debacle that was Iraq circa 2006 was a successful implementation of the "flypaper" strategy, as our troops were getting blown up by IEDs in record numbers. Too bad Rumsfeld got sacked, eh? we coulda still been having great success with that!
Call me an idiot if you wish, but I just didn't see much success in that, and neither did most reasonable people. I really do not believe that even youreally believe that we were successful in Iraq in 2006, so I'll leave it there.
When over 90% of the people aren't seeing progress in a war that was sold as a cakewalk, it's very much an issue. It was getting to the point where good people weren't volunteering and we we're having to take felons and others that would have been rejected under normal circumstances, and it was taking huge bonuses to get the qualifying recruits to sign on.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Skymutt...
...You're such a bit*h!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Sad to see you reduced to hurling insults from the sidelines!
Evidently, you've gotten your wings clipped one too many times for posting lies that you couldn't back up when you were called on it. This approach is much safer for you :-)
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Whoa there compadre.
No, I don't claim that everything is done yet. But I do claim that we are making progress which was the original goalpost of this conversation.
Nor do I (or Bush or MCain for that matter) claim that all progress will be predictable and smooth and without mishaps, especially when facing a committed opponent who is willing to adapt their strategy as we have seen in Iraq. The plan has always been "stay the course" which we seem to be agreed was "stay in the fight". "Stay in the fight" never implied doing so with blinders on and an unwillingness to adapt to changes on the ground or some artifically imposed notion of an "acceptable (to Democrats) timeframe". Fight until we win means, well, fight until we win. It does NOT mean fight until we win or the Democrats get tired and whiny.
Given that we are "still in the fight", I guess I actually CAN claim that things have gone according to plan all along. Did we have some failed tactics along the way? Sure, but to expect otherwise is naive.
That's fine. I'm not satisfied with "where we are now" either in Iraq. Never said that I was. So, my position is that we should "stay in the fight" until we win (i.e. we ARE satisfied with where things have gotten to). What's your position?
On the timeframe required to succeed, my personal estimate at the start was that it would last a decade ... so by my original accounting we are a little past 1/2 the way to being done.
The 4,000 lost American lives is a tragedy to be sure but it is still a far cry from the hundreds of thousands being predicted by the Democrat spin machine prior to the war ... so comparatively speaking we have done pretty well. (And not that I in no way mean to diminish the level of sacrifice made thus far, I am only saying that it is far less that was predicted by the Democrats prior to the war.)
As for the trillion dollars we have spent? It's just money and it pales in comparison to the importance of staying in the fight. What monetary price do you put on freedom?
You are correct, I do NOT believe that we were SUCCESSFUL in Iraq in 2006. But again, I do believe that we were MAKING PROGRESS in 2006 which was the original goalpost of this conversation.
I'll do you one better and claim that we STILL have not been SUCCESSFUL in Iraq today. So we need to stay until we ARE successful and not let every setback or period of slow progress dissuade us from our true goal.
This is true. But in a time of war one has to expect that this will be the case. Are you actually surprised that it is harder to get people to sign up when they are very likely going into a war zone than it is in a time of peace? And given the obviously increased risk level to the new recruits do you actually object to compensating them accordingly (i.e. with increased levels of signing bonuses)?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4The goalposts were "fair amount of progress", not just progress.
John McCain said that he believed we would make "a fair amount of progress" in Iraq in 2006. Do you believe that we made not just "progress", but "a fair amount of progress" in Iraq in 2006?
With the aid and comfort from red-barred apologists who weere all too willing to cite isolated areas of "progress", Bush refused to change course in what was overall a failing war effort for a period of years. With people such as yourself evidently willing to look at Iraq thru rose-colored glasses and front isolated areas of "progress" during 2005 and 2006, no wonder Bush took so long to make changes!
Whose freedom? My freedom? I don't see how my freedom has been enhanced one tiny bit by the Iraq War. As for the Iraqi's freedom, I already said that I'm not seeing evidence that Iraq will be much more than a garden-variedy middle-eastern petro-state coming out of this. I do not see the emergence of anything I would call "freedom" in Iraq. To buy the peace, we have paid off and strengthened a bunch of warlords who aren't exactly interested in the "freedom" of the people in their areas. If we were really aimed at gaining the "freedom" of the Iraqi people, we would have to do another about-face and take on these warlords, which would involve another episode of increased violence.
All I'm saying is that when a war becomes unpopular and the pool of possible recruits does not believe progress is being made, it's likely that the war costs will rise and the quality of the average recruit will fall, putting the lie to your claim that the American People's opinion of the progress of the war "didn't matter".
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
No, he didn't
He was calling for more troops and he was calling for a proper COIN strategy as far back as 2003, and he was criticizing Rumsfeld for the poor job he was doing. The timeline
speaks for itself.
The situation back in December 2005 was OK. Iraqi troops were getting trained and there were signs of more stability. Then the Golden Mosque bombing happened two months later.
Um, wasn't enough to criticize Rumsfeld, obviously.
Even if we just look only at your quotes pulled straight off of JohnMcCain.com, you'll see that he only mentions Bush by name once-- way back in 2003. He actively supported Bush in 2004. He was mouthing support for Bush in 2005 by parrotting the "stay the course" line. He never put any heat on Bush to change course. And it was Bush who was saying this in 2005:
You have to wonder why John "The Maverick" McCan singled out Rumsfeld, when it was Bush who was making statements like this.
By the way, Iraq was not "OK" by my standards in 2005. For instance, there wasn't nearly enough progress in training the Iraqi security forces-- you must have been strictly reading happy talk from the administration
, which had consistently presented an overly optimistic picture of the Iraqi security forces and the training effort. If we truly had 120 Iraqi battalions "in the fight" by 2005 (as the administration claimed) with more approaching readiness all the time, you would have thought that with the American troop levels remaining steady, that the secuirty situation would be markedly improving, which it wasn't.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Parsing
Outside of Hagel, no Republican has taken the Bush administration to task more on Iraq. McCain opposed Bush on troop levels, strategy, Rumsfeld's way of doing things, and treatment of detainees. McCain stood up against not only Bush, but against a super-majority in his own party. The timeline demonstrates the number of times he bucked against the GOP establishment. A criticism of the way the Bush administration is doing things is a criticism of Bush. The buck stops with him.
Where exactly has your candidate bucked his establishment?
The way the administration talked about troop levels in 2005 was misleading. The real measure was the number of Iraqi troops at Level II or better, Level II meaning autonomous and in the lead but requiring logistical support. Level I is fully independent. We didn't have enough troops at those levels, and the training took a clear step backward after the Golden Mosque sparked a sectarian melee.
Outside of Hagel, no
Not true. Even if you're only talking about Republican Senators, Lincoln Chafee was clearly more critical of the administration on Iraq than McCain. McCain was kind of in a group of Republican Senators who walked the fine line of supporting Bush while wishing to appear to be critical against an increasingly unpopular war-- Senators who never said or did nearly enough to bring any real pressure to bear on Bush to do his job and make the decisions necessary to lead to success.
The way to have brought pressure on Bush would have been to consistently and unequivocably call him out by name, and say that he was not doing the job and needed to start doing it pronto.
He hasn't done nearly enough. Obama is way too conventional for my tastes; that's probably the thing that I like least about him. He did oppose leadership on earmark reform, and was among the first to allow some wiggle room on the offshore drilling issue, but there's precious "bucking of the establishment" in his Senate record, and that's not an aspect of Obama which I would want to defend, even though I would have agreed with Obama on the majority of his votes. I just don't think McCain is much better in that regard, and he's the one who calls himself a Maverick.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I forgot Chaffee
He abandoned the party more than anything. He stayed a Republican only because he promised his constituents that he wouldn't pull a Jeffords.
McCain didn't abandon his party. He stayed engaged but made clear his differences. Doing that sort of thing is a tough straddle because you don't want to lose your effectiveness and influence if you push it too far. There's really only two ways you can go with this: (1) Declare yourself an independent like a Lieberman or Jeffords or (2) stay in the party and try to change your party from within. McCain chose the latter, and so did I when I was an editor at Redstate.
Don't rock the boat too much...
This kind of thinking is far too staid and conventional for my tastes. If this was a period of peace and prosperity I might be able to buy this. But when leadership is failing to carry out its duties during wartime, the stakes are far too high to be concerned about the political ramifications toward your own career of speaking up. And again, for a self-styled maverick and straight talker to be couching his words because of worries about his influence is kinda weak, don't you think? To demonstrate how absurd this is, try using the word "straddle" and "maverick" in the same sentence.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Well, think about it this way
If McCain wins, he changes the party. He becomes the de facto head of the GOP, especially with a genuine conservative like Palin on the ticket. With his bully pultpit, he is able to move the party in the direction he wants. The direction McCain wants to go with the GOP is where I want the GOP to go. There are too many conservatives out there who act like they want the Big Tent to get a lot smaller, and to me, that's the wrong path.
This is a two-party system, after all. It's either Republican or Democrat. Independent or third party is fantasyland when it comes to commander-in-chief, although it may be OK for the House or Senate. McCain has been a Republican in the mold of Reagan and TR, and there's nothing wrong with working within the party to move it back in that direction. It may be "too staid and conventional", but it's a real way to make your mark.
If McCain loses, I don't know where the hell the GOP is going to go, but we'll be in the minority for a good long while to think about, mostly because of Bush's failed presidency and our own party's unwillingness or inability to challenge Bush on his many eff-ups. McCain was an early-and-often criticizer of Bush since 2003, and he was right. Righter than just about every Republican in Congress. For me, my disregard for Bush really kicked into full gear when he nominated that mystery date, Harriet Miers, to the Supreme Court.
There was nothing gradual about Obama's withdrawal bill
He wanted to commenced withdrawals on May 1, 2007 and have all combat brigades out by March 31, 2008. This was a rapid surrender plan, so fast that we'd have to leave equipment behind in order to meet that deadline. The subsequent 16-month withdrawal plan is little better. In order to do it safely and with all of our equipment, etc., 16 months ranges from unrealistic to darn close to it.
Iraq was in chaos in early 2007, and the NIE around that time cautioned against precipitous withdrawals because they would likely degrade an already sorry situation. It would've been a clear declaration of defeat to the world, so matter such an act would get spun, we would've left a Middle East is increased turmoil and instability, and we would've seen an emboldended Iran increase its meddling in Iraq, and al Qaeda would have stuck around trying to foment sectarian strife. The Awakenings would never have happened because U.S. soldiers would've been too busy leaving to assist the Sunni tribes.
The mission has cost quite a bit of money, but to me, that cost is the penalty we're paying for screwing up from mid-2003 'til the end of 2006. Soldiers have been away longer from their families, which is unfortunately part of that cost, but they chose to serve and their preference is to succeed in their missions. The Army is much better off taking longer and succeeding than tucking tail and cutting-and-running home. Vietnam showed us how that affected our military.
When you say 'we'
"The mission has cost quite a bit of money, but to me, that cost is the penalty we're paying for screwing up from mid-2003 'til the end of 2006."
I didn't vote for Bush. I never supported the Iraq War. So the 'we' part of screwed it up, doesn't include me. I NEVER had faith in George Bush or his ideas, and I was right. Now we have to bail George and the US out of this mess, that should never had been made in the first place. Even worse going to war without raising taxes was one of the stupidest things ever. Now not only is the Middle East a mess, our military stretched thin, our economy is weakening to the point of putting us in a dangerous position, not unlike the Soviet Union after the Afghan-Soviet War. And our allies are........? China who is tired of funding our debt? Europe who we have mocked endlessly. France? Russia who McCain just threatened?
The Anbar awakening had less to do with the US than it did with the Brits pulling out.
Cutting and running, white flags, all this ridiculous inflammatory language is really over the top and unnecessary. But congrats on using the 'you aren't a patriot' bs. My patience for this sort of rhetoric non-existent.
I'm only half stupid
If you pay taxes, "we" includes you
The Anbar Awakening took root because Marines used COIN principles well before Petraeus came into the picture. Petraeus took what the Marines were doing in Anbar and made it a countrywide effort. And a good thing, because the strategy is working and Iraq is turning around.
When Obama proposed his bill in January 2007, he was proposing surrender. It was a cut-and-run bill. There's nothing inflammatory about calling something like it is. He wanted to flee when Iraq was in its darkest hour.
Think about who you're talking 2...;-)
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I'm glad the violence is down. No doubt the combination
of paying off al Sadr, the Sunni Awakening Council & more troops on the ground was what did it.
I don't see a good functional government though. The National govt did take control of that province but they say they will only take 20% of the Awakening Council's troops into the Security forces. No one has made any promises that the government would continue to fund the Awakening Council. That's gonna be trouble down the road.
Afghanistan & Pakistan are the mother lode. That's where we need to be focused on & I don't mean just militarily. The locals don't really like foreign troops there as much. I think building more roads. bridges, hospitals & schools would be better.
Plus, some of us are still pissed that we invaded Iraq in the first place. Still doesn't sit well in my belly even after all this time.
Bird Dog can post his trusty graphs over and over and over
But the graph doesn't show the reason why you and I and so many other Americans have to be pissed about going into Iraq in the first place that might eventually cause more death and pain and suffering than all those deaths represented by the bars in those charts-- and that's the loss of America's credibility and moral authority in the world. Before Iraq, half the world or more respected us, wanted to be allied with us, and trusted us as much as a superpower could be trusted, because we did the right thing most of the time, while at the same time showed some respect for our friends and allies. We invaded Iraq when we had no personal business there, and arrogantly did it without respecting the opinion of the rest of the world, without putting together a true coalition.
I don't think that anybody deserves to be ruled by a despot like Saddam Hussein, but I think the Iraq War has still been by far a net negative for the world. I see the fallout of the Iraq War in uncountable places-- I see it in Russia turning back to it's hard-line past, I see it in Pakistan when I see what was an emerging, moderating country going backward, I see it in the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, and I see it here in a jaded, partisan political climate where Congress has rightly earned a single-digit approval rating because none of the big issues facing us ever get addressed. Some will claim victory in Iraq at some point, and I'm glad that Iraq is safer than it was two years ago and am more than happy to give the surge some credit for that, but in the larger picture, Iraq has been a miserable blunder.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
+1
Going into Iraq hog tied the military and helped give Putin and his handlers a chance to see what they can get away with in Georgia and elsewhere.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
You'd think no one ever read up on the history of the countries
in the Middle east. They'd fight themselves if there was no one else there to fight.