Like Trevino's calling for the hanging and or assination of Noam Chomsky.
There will always be offensive comments if you look for them.
Did you know that the Jews in pre-war Germany were smeared as being to liberal, too anti-war, and not having enough national pride. The European Jews were seen as too liberal for being anti-war. The same way you and your ilk are trying to smear the democrats for being anti-war and too liberal.
There are Israeli bombs paid for by US tax payers destroying the New Democratic Country of Lebanon.
Do you really think that the world will not hold Israel to some account if we all have to get involved in WWlll, because of Israel's insistance on destroying the country of Lebanon, without even declaring war???
As for mob mentality, shall we talk about the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the new McCarthtyism.
You are either with Israel or against Israel. This is OUR war. Just ask William Kristol, and all the other pencil pushing intellectuals that are dreaming of war, after war, after war in the name of Israel.
Noam Chomsky is one poor excuse of a human being...
As for that "democratic country of Lebanon", I couldn't care less about their democracy. They certainly did not care to abide by an agreement that required them to reign in Hezbollah by putting their troops in the south. Instead they got that terrorist organization to join their democracy. They are paying for their mistakes.
The world has been against Israel almost from day one, this is hardly new, and it never stopped them from not surrendering and fighting valiantly (while ignoring the world that wishes them dead). If only our government was as brave.
Lebanon will survive and rebuild. Their casualties are not that high for a "war". My hope is that Hezbollah does not survive.
People fighting terrorists are our allies.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I was thinking how differently the right and left sees things.
It is like impossible to explain.
According to Ender are we also terrorists? We after all don't want war.
And I just read that Richard Perle, and the cabal in Cheney's office don't like condi. They think she is appeasing the enemy. George's pal, Condi. They want her fired.
I would like to send Richard Perle to Iraq, and out on the front lines. It might be good for his attitude and his big behind.
What's disgraceful in the coverage in the attacks on Israel is that Israel is deliberately trying to minimize civilian casualties on both sides and Hezbollah is deliberately trying to increase civilian casualties on both sides.
So the side that's losing 20x the number of civilians is the one responsible for killing civilians?
(note: this source is, as davidbyron noted, notoriously right-wing)
Ender, these numbers simply don't add up. Even if you support the idea of Israel's defense, something is going very wrong here in terms of execution.
I had a long discussion with my roommate tonight - she worked in Haifa and recently moved back here for law school. The block she worked on was bombed this past week. She's having a really rough time with this, because as cynical as she is about the motivations of both sides, it's getting harder and harder for her to deal with this. I think the bangup combination of ambulances and the UN convoy has permanently damaged the credibility of Israel's justifications - and at this point, it's only the Israeli newspapers and FOX news that believe otherwise.
Oddly enough, she tells me, even the leftist papers in Israeli are trying their damnedest at spin control. So it's possible that those living in Israel really have no idea how badly international opinion is turning against them.
Like someone who watches only FOX news and thinks that things in Iraq are humming along smoothly.
I'll be the first to admit that the rhetoric on the left vis-Ã -vis Israel has gotten a little bloodthirsty for my taste - it's one of the reason my dkos consumption has gone down recently, although I still jump in here and there on other topics. And they're certainly well above redstate on most issues. ;) But defending Israel is becoming more and more difficult. These last two days may have damaged their credibility beyond repair.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
1. Lebanon's democracy can go fuck itself because they have not reined in Hezbollah and because they have allowed Hezbollah to be a part of the government.
2. In Iraq, the United States and the Iraqi government are actively trying to get Sunni insurgent groups to quit fighting and join the government.
3. In Iraq, this inclusiveness is called progress. In Lebanon it is supporting terrorism.
you do undestand that there is a difference between Al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgent groups. Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups like Al Qaeda. You let them stay and you are responsible for that "inclusiveness". Sleep with the terrorists and you will get hurt.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Israel isn't being bashed. Israel's over reaction resulting in the killing of hundreds of civilians, killing UN Observers and the destruction of much of the Lebanese infrastructure is.
Blaming a start up government without the power to disarm Hezbollah is like blaming your 12 year old sister for you being a bully.
Both sides have a lot to answer for.
As for the general tone at DK, compared to RS, LGF or Freeperville it's a tea party.
Or is your point that if you replace the words "Israeli foreign policy" with "Israel" and maybe add a few hyperbolic adjectives for good measure and maybe a "pro-Hezbola" misdirection you can avoid having to think or elucidate an opinion about anything?
Or is it the fact that community diaries tend to elicit many if not most of their responses on the exact same topic as the diary itself. And that on popular sites posts tend to elicit a lot of responses (like this one which had nearly 3 times as many)? Which maybe allows enough wiggle room for more unexplained vitrolic adjectives?
You seem to be forgetting about Pat Buchanan and his cohorts.
I'm not surprised, but I'm disappointed in your portrayal. From what I've read on the liberal blogs, MOST of the participants are upset that Israel is attacking civilian neighborhoods, Red Cross Ambulances, airports, bridges and harbors. They also take pains to say that they support Israel's right to defend itself and that it has a right to go after the kidnappers and Hezbollah. But what they've done in pursuing a scortched earth policy is making peace even more difficult. I say that because from what I've read, ALL Lebanese, christians included, are now wholly against Israel & this does play out in other areas of Middle East peace prospects.
They are too heavy handed, to callous. 2 of their guys get kidnapped & they go out heavily bombing another country. Had they been more deft, they wouldn't have had the whole of the rest of the ME & possibly the world, against them.
And please don't start in about Lebanon allowing Hezbollah to operate there. Lebanon has been under civil war and then Syrian occupation for the last 20 years. As a state they were too weak to do anything about it or they Syrians approved cause they wanted to needle Israel.
If you want to start with your Israel Bashing as a strawmen for attacking anyone that disagrees with your beautiful war........ then you are on a dangerous road.
It is a free country and we can express our opinions........ remember! We don't have to support Israel or Lebanon to be Americans. It would be nice if we started taking care of the people in this country, like say......... New Orleans, or the displaced amputees that are casualities of the War in Iraq.
But no we have to spend all of our money fighting "this evil terrorism" which has become in and of itself a strawman. Like accusing someone of communism.
Iraq's new government bashes Israel. Iraq is anti-Semite. That is what our soldiers died for. A soverign nation that hates Israel even more now that they are destroying Lebanon.
Go ahead and slander the soldiers who fought to give the Iraqi's this freedom to become a nation of Hezbollah sympathizers.
Are you saying that Iraqi insurgents are not terrorists? You mean the folks who set off car bombs in crowded markets and send suicide bombers into restaurants are not terrorists?
You also need to check your scorecard of bad guys in the region.
It is true that al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents are not the same, although Bush apparently does not understand that.
Also true is that al Qaeda and Hezbollah are not the same. Hezbollah is a Shiite militia. Al Qaeda is fundamentalist Sunni. Comparing the two would be like linking the IRA with Protestants.
Hezbollah is much closer to Shiite leader Muqtada al-Sadr and his Sadr Brigades militia that is currently waging sectarian war against Sunnis in Baghdad and elsewhere. Al-Sadr is a key figure in the Iraqi government.
that's kinda complicated. One of the main insurgent groups in Iraq is called "Al Qaeda in Iraq," or "Al Qaeda in the Land of Two Rivers". This was the group founded by Zarqawi with the goal of turning Iraq into a purely Sunni state.
It's not the same Al Qaeda as the one that attacked us, although Zarqawi did receive some of his training in Afghanistan, and the two groups share a commitment to terrorism.
So, saying that Al Qaeda and the Iraqi insurgency are two different things... well, yes and a little bit no. Messy situation, that.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Strange that the right tolerates (Heck encourages) all sorts of anti-semitism but if anyone on the left objects to Israel's foreign policy then they suddenly get upset.
Iraq's prime minister is from the Dawa Party. A little background:
the Iraqi Dawa helped to form the Lebanese Hizbullah back in the early 1980s. The Dawa was in exile in Tehran, Damascus and Beirut and it formed a shadowy terror wing called, generically, Islamic Jihad. The IJ cell of the Dawa attacked the US and French embassies in Kuwait in 1983, in an operation probably directed by the Tehran branch, which was close to Khomeini.
My understanding is that Nuri al-Maliki was the bureau chief of the Dawa cell in Damascus in the 1980s. He must have been closely involved with the Iraqi Dawa in Beirut, which in turn was intimately involved in Hizbullah. I am not saying he himself did anything wrong. I don't know what he was doing in specific, other than trying to overthrow Saddam, which was heroic.
...
Things have changed, and I am not at all suggesting that a vindictive attitude is appropriate, but Dawa has a background as a terrorist organization. While in Tehran, it spun off a shadowy set of special ops units generically called "Islamic Jihad," which operated in places like Kuwait and Lebanon. The Dawa's Islamic Jihad appears to have been at the nexus of splinter groups that later, in 1982, began to coalesce into Hezbollah (the 1983 truck bombing of US Marines is often blamed on "Hezbollah," but that organization barely existed then.) The current al-Dawa leadership repudiates these anti-West actions, and blames them on cells of al-Dawa temporarily taken over by Iranian elements. The arrest lists do not support this excuse.
The Council ?condemned, ?censured,? ?deplored,? ?strongly deplored? etc. Israel 49 times. The Council never ?condemned,? ?censured,? ?deplored? etc. the Arabs.
There is only one entire UN Division devoted to a single group of people: the United Nations Division for Palestinian Rights [11] (created in 1977).
The only UN day dedicated to a specific people is November 29, the annual UN Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People.
There is only one refugee agency dedicated to a single refugee situation: UNRWA (in operation since 1950).
One of the General Assembly six committees, "the Fourth Committee, routinely devotes 30% of its time to the condemnation of Israel."
"The General Assembly emergency sessions... began in 1956, and since then six of the ten emergency sessions ever held, have been about Israel. The 10th such session began in 1997 and has been reconvened 13 times. A million dead in Rwanda or two million dead in Sudan might have warranted one General Assembly emergency session."
"...the UN's primary human-rights body is the UN Human Rights Commission. 30% of the resolutions condemning specific states ever adopted over 40 years are directed at Israel."
In August 2004, the United Nations Association of the United Kingdom (UNA-UK) published a report analyzing thirteen years of United Nations resolutions on the Arab-Israeli conflict. In light of the study’s conclusions, Malcolm Harper, speaking on behalf of the UNA-UK (of which he was director until recently), called for an examination into how, if at all, the lopsided resolutions contribute to the Middle East peace process. The 76-page report makes the following principal findings:
The texts of UN General Assembly and Security Council resolutions are "often unbalanced in terms of the length of criticism and condemnation of Israeli actions in the Occupied Territories as against Palestinian actions such as suicide bombings."
The United Nations is "palpably more critical of Israeli policies and practices than it is of either Palestinian actions or the wider Arab world. However criticism is not necessarily the product of bias."
In resolutions of the UN General Assembly, "violence perpetrated against Israeli civilians, including the use of suicide bombers, is mentioned only a few times and then in only vague terms."
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
You're comparing the lack of condemnation of international activities with the presence of condemnation of intranational activities. Do you want me to set out a list of all the UN criticisms of policies in surrounding Islamic countries? That'd even things out quite a bit.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
to talk down to folks he's "talking to", lecturing is more like it.
Steve - you have an opinion. We have opinions. Yours isn't more valuable than ours, even if they differ.
Please continue to give us details as to why you support the issues you do. Please don't tell us we're idiots because we don't always support your issues.
Otherwise, those of us here will just hink you're a guy with "issues". Take it for what it's worth.
With very few exceptions the responses I've received in my short time at this site have been very condescending with an inherent condemnation of, and unwillingness to accept, my views. Not that anyone has to agree but there’s always an air that it’s a forgone conclusion that my view is preposterous.
I've not called anyone an idiot on this board! I think some people here have a misunderstanding or a naive approach to a lot of issues but my responses have always been civil.
I love how I’m being accused of the same bad behavior I’ve been subject too here.
I give back what I get if that’s not acceptable here petition the editors for my banning and I will go elsewhere.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
I think it is slightly disingenious of you to talk about Iraq's government "bashing" of Israel when you have had nothing but condemnation and criticism of Israel's actions yourself.
Iraqi leaders have the reality of arab population that does not feel much love for Israel. In that context their comments are at least understandable if not excusable. Besides it certainly was nothing compared to what's been coming out of Iran and the like.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
That you are willing to come here and suffer the "abuse" of liberals, is a testament to either your open mindedness, or your strong beliefs that you are right and can talk some sense into us.
So convince me on the issues.
To do so you have to understand the "enemy" position. So try and listen and convince on the issues, not the tried stale Republican talking points. Like "We are making progress".
for democracy, Lebanon is being destroyed....... destroyed. Lebanon is a democracy.
That you ask Lebanon to magically raise an army, whilst they are in the midst of economic and political process which is slow (as you say about Iraq constantly),
why would the US not intervene, and tell Israel to slow down, and let Lebanon build its economic stability so that it can support a democracy.
The lack of foresight of foreign policy by this administration is astonishing.
You CAN NOT solve every single problem in the world with brut force.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
and to defend itself. In the current situation, they have gone too far. Way too far.
My friend was recently in Israel for an arts project drawing together the children from Palestine and Israel, to show them how to get along and work together. To show them that they all have the same fears.
The peace protesters in Israel support their country. They love their country. I stand with them.
The Lebanonsese who are so much poorer, they same their homes destroyed and are just angry. They are angry that the bombs that kill their children of "made in the USA" on them. Lack of education, moral support and pure anger, will only fuel the rise of future anti-American, anti-Israeli sentiment.
Israel has jobs to go home to. The Lebanonese now homeless, where will they go? Will they have work. Their jobs have been destroyed. Their children cry from hunger. Out of desparation and anger if someone hands them money they will gladly fight Americans and Israeli's, if for no other reason than to feed their families.
The actions of Israel, while they seem just, the price we pay in the future what will it be. More radicalization of the region. This is the root cause of terrorism. I know it is too much sympathy for conservatives, but it is true and you know it is.
A ceasefire would have been the wiser course, and if the US had wanted one Israel would have complied.
lol, the point is I am much more willing to forgive Iraqis for that crap because their government is not actively supporting Hezbollah nor any other terrorist groups. They are trying to become better. Old prejudices are hard to break but I'll dare to say that it is possible, if Iraq stabilizes and continues on the road of democracy and freedom, they will have official relations with Israel.
I've read somewhere (maybe Redstate) that some Iraqi officials expressed such desires for the future (relations with Israel). I hope it is true.
With that I have to run out for the night, a bit busy.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
you a genious, er what, cause I totally missed your explanation.
Or is it some invisible code only visible to True Red Blooded Patriotic Americans?
I will try to avoid conversation with you in the future for the sake of civility.
I find your views to be biggoted and distasteful to my delicate liberal sensibilities.
Pa get me my frying pan, I got some fish to fry, and they aint any part of that evolutionary chain. And then when I am done I am take that big old cast iron pan and clobber me some Steve Foley.
( I gave you an opening on your being here to discuss the issues, but clearly it isn't your purpose.)
only 11 million dollars an hour paid for with US taxes.
Meanwhile back at home........ Do you think that the American people may tire of the imperialistic goals of this country, at the cost to their own families economic well being?
wanted to discuss the issues, you only tried to discredit mine, dig at me personally or loosely try to tie a bunch of liberal TalkingPoints™ , KnownFacts™ and leftist rhetoric together to feel like you've smacked down another conservative.
So please don't take the moral high ground with me. You’ve only based your opinion of me through leftist blinders and a hatred of anyone who happens to have a differing opinion. Finding absurd "truths or opinions" in simple statements!
Like most moonbats you're quick to start the condescending remarks and hate speak.
Be well,
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
I am much more willing to forgive Iraqis for that crap because their government is not actively supporting Hezbollah
Go check out what Muqtada al-Sadr, who is probably the second most powerful man in the Iraqi government, has had to say about Hezbollah and Israel lately.
Lebanon, a fragile society just recivering from decades long war, is supposed to take on Hizbollah, and defeat them even though Israel's own IDF has never been able to. Got it.
Comments :
I could browse the blogs
for equally repugnant comments on the right.
Like Trevino's calling for the hanging and or assination of Noam Chomsky.
There will always be offensive comments if you look for them.
Did you know that the Jews in pre-war Germany were smeared as being to liberal, too anti-war, and not having enough national pride. The European Jews were seen as too liberal for being anti-war. The same way you and your ilk are trying to smear the democrats for being anti-war and too liberal.
There are Israeli bombs paid for by US tax payers destroying the New Democratic Country of Lebanon.
Do you really think that the world will not hold Israel to some account if we all have to get involved in WWlll, because of Israel's insistance on destroying the country of Lebanon, without even declaring war???
As for mob mentality, shall we talk about the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the new McCarthtyism.
You are either with Israel or against Israel. This is OUR war. Just ask William Kristol, and all the other pencil pushing intellectuals that are dreaming of war, after war, after war in the name of Israel.
I'm only half stupid
well to be fair
Noam Chomsky is one poor excuse of a human being...
As for that "democratic country of Lebanon", I couldn't care less about their democracy. They certainly did not care to abide by an agreement that required them to reign in Hezbollah by putting their troops in the south. Instead they got that terrorist organization to join their democracy. They are paying for their mistakes.
The world has been against Israel almost from day one, this is hardly new, and it never stopped them from not surrendering and fighting valiantly (while ignoring the world that wishes them dead). If only our government was as brave.
Lebanon will survive and rebuild. Their casualties are not that high for a "war". My hope is that Hezbollah does not survive.
People fighting terrorists are our allies.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Define terrorist for me please.
I'm only half stupid
Like Iraq is not reigning in its terrorists
And allowing Shia militias to exist.
Do you think Lebanese Army can reign in the Hezbollah, even if they wanted to?
Hey Jasmine!
I was thinking how differently the right and left sees things.
It is like impossible to explain.
According to Ender are we also terrorists? We after all don't want war.
And I just read that Richard Perle, and the cabal in Cheney's office don't like condi. They think she is appeasing the enemy. George's pal, Condi. They want her fired.
I would like to send Richard Perle to Iraq, and out on the front lines. It might be good for his attitude and his big behind.
I'm only half stupid
This is the part I don't understand.
From FOX news
:
If that's true, then how do we derive these numbers
:
Israeli civilian casualties: 18
Lebanese civilian casualties: 360
So the side that's losing 20x the number of civilians is the one responsible for killing civilians?
(note: this source is, as davidbyron noted, notoriously right-wing)
Ender, these numbers simply don't add up. Even if you support the idea of Israel's defense, something is going very wrong here in terms of execution.
I had a long discussion with my roommate tonight - she worked in Haifa and recently moved back here for law school. The block she worked on was bombed this past week. She's having a really rough time with this, because as cynical as she is about the motivations of both sides, it's getting harder and harder for her to deal with this. I think the bangup combination of ambulances and the UN convoy has permanently damaged the credibility of Israel's justifications - and at this point, it's only the Israeli newspapers and FOX news that believe otherwise.
Oddly enough, she tells me, even the leftist papers in Israeli are trying their damnedest at spin control. So it's possible that those living in Israel really have no idea how badly international opinion is turning against them.
Like someone who watches only FOX news and thinks that things in Iraq are humming along smoothly.
I'll be the first to admit that the rhetoric on the left vis-Ã -vis Israel has gotten a little bloodthirsty for my taste - it's one of the reason my dkos consumption has gone down recently, although I still jump in here and there on other topics. And they're certainly well above redstate on most issues. ;) But defending Israel is becoming more and more difficult. These last two days may have damaged their credibility beyond repair.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
So, let's review, shall we?
1. Lebanon's democracy can go fuck itself because they have not reined in Hezbollah and because they have allowed Hezbollah to be a part of the government.
2. In Iraq, the United States and the Iraqi government are actively trying to get Sunni insurgent groups to quit fighting and join the government.
3. In Iraq, this inclusiveness is called progress. In Lebanon it is supporting terrorism.
qui tacet consentire
Good point (n/t)
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
heh
you do undestand that there is a difference between Al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgent groups. Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups like Al Qaeda. You let them stay and you are responsible for that "inclusiveness". Sleep with the terrorists and you will get hurt.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
As Usual -- painfully simplistic
Israel isn't being bashed. Israel's over reaction resulting in the killing of hundreds of civilians, killing UN Observers and the destruction of much of the Lebanese infrastructure is.
Blaming a start up government without the power to disarm Hezbollah is like blaming your 12 year old sister for you being a bully.
Both sides have a lot to answer for.
As for the general tone at DK, compared to RS, LGF or Freeperville it's a tea party.
Iraq: Front of the War on Terror
If Iraq is just insurgent groups. Why are we there?
I thought we are in Iraq because it is the front on the war on terror--at least that is what Repubs have been saying.
So do you have some kind of counter-argument or something?
Or is your point that if you replace the words "Israeli foreign policy" with "Israel" and maybe add a few hyperbolic adjectives for good measure and maybe a "pro-Hezbola" misdirection you can avoid having to think or elucidate an opinion about anything?
Or is it the fact that community diaries tend to elicit many if not most of their responses on the exact same topic as the diary itself. And that on popular sites posts tend to elicit a lot of responses (like this one
which had nearly 3 times as many)? Which maybe allows enough wiggle room for more unexplained vitrolic adjectives?
I've seen Israel bashing on both sides Ender.
You seem to be forgetting about Pat Buchanan and his cohorts.
I'm not surprised, but I'm disappointed in your portrayal. From what I've read on the liberal blogs, MOST of the participants are upset that Israel is attacking civilian neighborhoods, Red Cross Ambulances, airports, bridges and harbors. They also take pains to say that they support Israel's right to defend itself and that it has a right to go after the kidnappers and Hezbollah. But what they've done in pursuing a scortched earth policy is making peace even more difficult. I say that because from what I've read, ALL Lebanese, christians included, are now wholly against Israel & this does play out in other areas of Middle East peace prospects.
They are too heavy handed, to callous. 2 of their guys get kidnapped & they go out heavily bombing another country. Had they been more deft, they wouldn't have had the whole of the rest of the ME & possibly the world, against them.
And please don't start in about Lebanon allowing Hezbollah to operate there. Lebanon has been under civil war and then Syrian occupation for the last 20 years. As a state they were too weak to do anything about it or they Syrians approved cause they wanted to needle Israel.
A diplomatic solution would have been preferred.
Israel is losing support not gaining it
If you want to start with your Israel Bashing as a strawmen for attacking anyone that disagrees with your beautiful war........ then you are on a dangerous road.
It is a free country and we can express our opinions........ remember! We don't have to support Israel or Lebanon to be Americans. It would be nice if we started taking care of the people in this country, like say......... New Orleans, or the displaced amputees that are casualities of the War in Iraq.
But no we have to spend all of our money fighting "this evil terrorism" which has become in and of itself a strawman. Like accusing someone of communism.
Iraq's new government bashes Israel. Iraq is anti-Semite. That is what our soldiers died for. A soverign nation that hates Israel even more now that they are destroying Lebanon.
Go ahead and slander the soldiers who fought to give the Iraqi's this freedom to become a nation of Hezbollah sympathizers.
I'm only half stupid
So, Ender
Are you saying that Iraqi insurgents are not terrorists? You mean the folks who set off car bombs in crowded markets and send suicide bombers into restaurants are not terrorists?
You also need to check your scorecard of bad guys in the region.
It is true that al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents are not the same, although Bush apparently does not understand that.
Also true is that al Qaeda and Hezbollah are not the same. Hezbollah is a Shiite militia. Al Qaeda is fundamentalist Sunni. Comparing the two would be like linking the IRA with Protestants.
Hezbollah is much closer to Shiite leader Muqtada al-Sadr and his Sadr Brigades militia that is currently waging sectarian war against Sunnis in Baghdad and elsewhere. Al-Sadr is a key figure in the Iraqi government.
qui tacet consentire
Actually,
that's kinda complicated. One of the main insurgent groups in Iraq is called "Al Qaeda in Iraq," or "Al Qaeda in the Land of Two Rivers". This was the group founded by Zarqawi with the goal of turning Iraq into a purely Sunni state.
It's not the same Al Qaeda as the one that attacked us, although Zarqawi did receive some of his training in Afghanistan, and the two groups share a commitment to terrorism.
So, saying that Al Qaeda and the Iraqi insurgency are two different things... well, yes and a little bit no. Messy situation, that.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
LGF is one sick place
they are enamored of blood and knives.
I like your short concise description of the situation.
I'm only half stupid
Isn't it?
Strange that the right tolerates (Heck encourages) all sorts of anti-semitism but if anyone on the left objects to Israel's foreign policy then they suddenly get upset.
Another point
Iraq's prime minister is from the Dawa Party. A little background:
http://www.juancole....
qui tacet consentire
Israel has never had world support
U.N. condemnations of anti-Zionist terrorist organizations attacking Israel = 0
U.N. condemnations of Israel defending its citizens against anti-Zionist terrorist organizations = 49
THE U.N.'s RECORD VIS A VIS ISRAEL
Israel and the United Nations
No straw-man just your lack of knowledge of the situation or your naiveté!
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Disingenuous.
You're comparing the lack of condemnation of international activities with the presence of condemnation of intranational activities. Do you want me to set out a list of all the UN criticisms of policies in surrounding Islamic countries? That'd even things out quite a bit.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Was there.....
.... something to discuss here? Are are we just supposed to sit quietly and watch Ender shoot fish in a barrel?
A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings
Whose side exactly
are our US military troops fighting for in the Iraq War.
The Shia's who support Hezbollah? They seem to be the ruling democractically elected magority?
You neglected to answer the question as to why our soldiers are fighting to liberate a country that is anti-Israel.
I'm only half stupid
bobbing for apples
grown in Israel.
I'm only half stupid
Steve always try's
to talk down to folks he's "talking to", lecturing is more like it.
Steve - you have an opinion. We have opinions. Yours isn't more valuable than ours, even if they differ.
Please continue to give us details as to why you support the issues you do. Please don't tell us we're idiots because we don't always support your issues.
Otherwise, those of us here will just hink you're a guy with "issues". Take it for what it's worth.
I'm not sure
my comment to him in his new diary will help things.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I'm not talking down to anyone
With very few exceptions the responses I've received in my short time at this site have been very condescending with an inherent condemnation of, and unwillingness to accept, my views. Not that anyone has to agree but there’s always an air that it’s a forgone conclusion that my view is preposterous.
I've not called anyone an idiot on this board! I think some people here have a misunderstanding or a naive approach to a lot of issues but my responses have always been civil.
I love how I’m being accused of the same bad behavior I’ve been subject too here.
I give back what I get if that’s not acceptable here petition the editors for my banning and I will go elsewhere.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
My post was specific to HOW you talk.
Sometimes, I've agreed with ya, Sometimes not so much.
well you could
write a diary on an issue and we'd discuss what you have to say.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
missliberties
I think it is slightly disingenious of you to talk about Iraq's government "bashing" of Israel when you have had nothing but condemnation and criticism of Israel's actions yourself.
Iraqi leaders have the reality of arab population that does not feel much love for Israel. In that context their comments are at least understandable if not excusable. Besides it certainly was nothing compared to what's been coming out of Iran and the like.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Ok!
I'll try to think of something. I'm not real smart, but I'll give it a go.
A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings
Could you please outline
the criteria for "acceptable bashing," because it's not quite clear from your comment.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Would you be talking about
the Scarlet "R"
That you are willing to come here and suffer the "abuse" of liberals, is a testament to either your open mindedness, or your strong beliefs that you are right and can talk some sense into us.
So convince me on the issues.
To do so you have to understand the "enemy" position. So try and listen and convince on the issues, not the tried stale Republican talking points. Like "We are making progress".
I'm only half stupid
It is a shame that in the quest
for democracy, Lebanon is being destroyed....... destroyed. Lebanon is a democracy.
That you ask Lebanon to magically raise an army, whilst they are in the midst of economic and political process which is slow (as you say about Iraq constantly),
why would the US not intervene, and tell Israel to slow down, and let Lebanon build its economic stability so that it can support a democracy.
The lack of foresight of foreign policy by this administration is astonishing.
You CAN NOT solve every single problem in the world with brut force.
I'm only half stupid
I will bet you are smarter
than you think!!!!
I'm only half stupid
My point illustrated perfectly n/t
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
I support Israel's right to soveignty
and to defend itself. In the current situation, they have gone too far. Way too far.
My friend was recently in Israel for an arts project drawing together the children from Palestine and Israel, to show them how to get along and work together. To show them that they all have the same fears.
The peace protesters in Israel support their country. They love their country. I stand with them.
The Lebanonsese who are so much poorer, they same their homes destroyed and are just angry. They are angry that the bombs that kill their children of "made in the USA" on them. Lack of education, moral support and pure anger, will only fuel the rise of future anti-American, anti-Israeli sentiment.
Israel has jobs to go home to. The Lebanonese now homeless, where will they go? Will they have work. Their jobs have been destroyed. Their children cry from hunger. Out of desparation and anger if someone hands them money they will gladly fight Americans and Israeli's, if for no other reason than to feed their families.
The actions of Israel, while they seem just, the price we pay in the future what will it be. More radicalization of the region. This is the root cause of terrorism. I know it is too much sympathy for conservatives, but it is true and you know it is.
A ceasefire would have been the wiser course, and if the US had wanted one Israel would have complied.
I'm only half stupid
acceptable bashing
lol, the point is I am much more willing to forgive Iraqis for that crap because their government is not actively supporting Hezbollah nor any other terrorist groups. They are trying to become better. Old prejudices are hard to break but I'll dare to say that it is possible, if Iraq stabilizes and continues on the road of democracy and freedom, they will have official relations with Israel.
I've read somewhere (maybe Redstate) that some Iraqi officials expressed such desires for the future (relations with Israel). I hope it is true.
With that I have to run out for the night, a bit busy.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Wow Your IQ must be like 192
you a genious, er what, cause I totally missed your explanation.
Or is it some invisible code only visible to True Red Blooded Patriotic Americans?
I will try to avoid conversation with you in the future for the sake of civility.
I find your views to be biggoted and distasteful to my delicate liberal sensibilities.
Pa get me my frying pan, I got some fish to fry, and they aint any part of that evolutionary chain. And then when I am done I am take that big old cast iron pan and clobber me some Steve Foley.
( I gave you an opening on your being here to discuss the issues, but clearly it isn't your purpose.)
I'm only half stupid
small price to pay
only 11 million dollars an hour paid for with US taxes.
Meanwhile back at home........ Do you think that the American people may tire of the imperialistic goals of this country, at the cost to their own families economic well being?
I'm only half stupid
You’ve never
wanted to discuss the issues, you only tried to discredit mine, dig at me personally or loosely try to tie a bunch of liberal TalkingPoints™ , KnownFacts™ and leftist rhetoric together to feel like you've smacked down another conservative.
So please don't take the moral high ground with me. You’ve only based your opinion of me through leftist blinders and a hatred of anyone who happens to have a differing opinion. Finding absurd "truths or opinions" in simple statements!
Like most moonbats you're quick to start the condescending remarks and hate speak.
Be well,
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
I doubt it n/t
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
You sure about that?
Go check out what Muqtada al-Sadr, who is probably the second most powerful man in the Iraqi government, has had to say about Hezbollah and Israel lately.
qui tacet consentire
you forgot add
Lebanon, a fragile society just recivering from decades long war, is supposed to take on Hizbollah, and defeat them even though Israel's own IDF has never been able to. Got it.
any society
has a duty to resist terrorism. If they don't, someone else will have to do it for them.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR