Wednesday Open Thread
Lebanon is mourning the loss of the politician assassinated yesterday. Most people think Syria did it. But the powerful family of the slain Christian politician seems to be doing a good job of keeping the thoughts of angry revenge tamped down enough to prevent outright chaos. Nowhere in the major news outlets (CNN , MSNBC
, ABC
, CBS
, Fox
) do I see the story about the outgoing congress leaving much of their spending appropriations work undone even though there is an AP story about it that was on Yahoo News. (link
) Last month was the mostly deadly month for Iraqis thus far. (link
) I think this
is a decent article about Pelosi and "San Francisco values."
And, whether you agree with him or not, General Wesley Clark's suggestions for what to do next in Iraq are probably the best starting place for discussion you will find anywhere. (link 
) I encourage you to read the whole thing but here is the summation paragraph:
Ultimately, security in the Gulf and winning against al-Qaeda will require that we work with regional powers, promote stability and gradual transformation, and regain "strategic consent" for long-term U.S. assistance in the region. We must use the situation in Iraq to propel us toward this larger goal, and in doing so, we will also find the right way to wind down our deployment there.
Comments :
Clark's "suggestion"
sounds good on the surface but it is just generalities without any concrete advice on what to do.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
You mean like
'stay the course'
and
'as the Iraqis stand up, will we stand down'
and
'adapt and win'
I'll take Clark's generalities over the Republicans' generalities.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
when you criticize others while pretending to have a better
solution, you should have more than empty generalities :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
General Clark
clearly does have more than empty generalities. His service to his country says so. He is not only effective, but popular.
But since you are an advocate of ideology over practicality, I feel confident that in your mind he is worthy of nothing but a disrespectful and shrill screed berating his past record of achievement.
I'm only half stupid
since you feel that way
what would your concrete advice be.
You are always first to jump in with criticism of any new suggestion or debate regarding the flacid, petulant failures of Bush/Rumsfeld v Iraq Victory.
If you advocate "we must stay until we win". What does winning look like?
When you declare victory in your war, who will be surrendering?
I'm only half stupid
there are different
goals in achieving victory in Iraq. It's not all about people surrendering.
We've already said many times what victory there looks like but of course you ignore it each time and repeat the same question.
Victory is a stable Iraq that is friendly to US and is a good influence in the region. In that sense it means that Iraqis are able to keep their country together on their own, have a well functioning government, and made peace amongst its many factions. It also means that Al Qaeda in Iraq is well contained.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
My interpretation of General Clark's statements
are that he expects all Iraq's neighbor states to be part of any substansive peace deal. But that's just my interpretation, I haven't yet been told what to think by Kos (holiday week and all, you know).
:-)
This is priceless, and SOOO appropriate for the kossacks.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Apparently you aren't familiar with the literary technique
known as sarcasm. Wikipedia explains it well.
OOHHHH!
You thought you were being sarcastic. Now it all makes sense! :-)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4we all have that in common here.
I really do enjoy the back & forth we get from both the people we agree with and those we don't. One thing I know we all share is...
Sometimes you're looking at the screen, reading what someone says, and you say to yourself "Who are these people?" or "Oh My God! I can't believe that!".
Anyway. Enjoy the holiday everyone. Who is Dallas playing anyhow?
Ditto! n/t
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Speaking of empty generalities.
"Victory is a stable Iraq"
Yes, that seems obvious. You discredit Clark's suggestions as empty generalities, yet your offering is empty generalities.
I'm only half stupid
Yes, I can actually.
Stay there and kill everyone who refuses to get along (i.e. al Qaeda and probably some percentage of the native born insurgents).
We will know that this has been achieved when the IEDs stop going off and people stop shooting RPGs at not only the US troops but the Iraqi ones as well.
Is that concrete enough?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Nuke em!
Yeah! Go baby!
All war all the time.
Could I please pay for it. Please.
Are you ready to join up to help with the cause of world peace. Got kids. Nephews. I'll pay my tax dollars for you to go win the peace! I hear they are a little short on troops!
Come on!
Put your money where your mouth is!
I'm only half stupid
Can't Nuke 'Em, unfortunately.
Too much collatoral damage. I mean you guys are complaining about the collatoral damage from precision guided munitions. I can't even imagine what you would be saying if we actually nuked 'em.
Besides, I don't want to kill the nice ones, only the bad ones that keep hurting people and refuse to get along with others.
I am already putting my money where my mouth is, and yours too, through the tax and spend machine invented by the liberals. Unfortunately, GWB seems to have figured out how to use it too. :-(
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4OH come on!
I thought you were a man. I thought you guys had cajones!
We nuked Japan in WWll! Why is this different. Who cares what the polls say.
I just don't get you guys. If you are gonna do a war, and preach it, and preach all about liberal sissies, you could at least try and get it frikking right so someone else doesn't have to clean up your mess.
I wonder who gets to decide who the good Iraqi's are and who the bad ones are! Any idea which color uniforms the good Iraqi's over there wear?
Yeah the newest big government welfare system does seem to be the Pentagon.
I really do wish people like you accept a one way ticket to Iraq. And then once you finish your "mission" and pull Iraq up by it's US welfare bootstraps.
Then you can see if you can find a way to earn you way home, in maybe 15 or 20 years. Your sacrifice for you countries freedom would be worth it to me!
I'm only half stupid
Actually with my plan ...
the bad guys self nominate. No uniforms required. The bad guys are the ones that are building the IEDs and shooting the RPGs at us. :-)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4and you distinguish them from the good guys how?
Was more my question.
You should sign up for Maj. Gen Batiste's strategy. He called for the firing of Rumsfeld, and now believes that we can carry on with the long war, at least 30 years, (about 30 trillion dollars worth) and should shoot at anything that moves.
I don't think I have ever heard a more vague approach to "winning".
Shooting at whatever moves! Wow. That is a brilliant strategy. How much military school did you have to go through to come up with that one?
Winning hearts and minds with every bullet??? Is that how that works?
I'm only half stupid
I thought that the Iraqis
were in control of the oil revenues, but I admit that I am not certain. Are we (the United States) actually in control of how the revenues are being divided?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Check
this information
out. Not a flattering picture of our intentions (and answers your question).
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
You've gone soft, Ender
What happened to that old-fashioned "kill 'em all let God sort 'em out" spirit? Huh?
Contained? You're joking, right? I thought the only strength the terrorists were supposed to have left was the stench of their dead bodies.
Contained is what that wimp-ass Bill Clinton did with Saddam. Contain is for pussies. Good God, man, get a grip. Snap out of it!!!!
Talk like that will get you banned at RedState.
qui tacet consentire
You're right.
Ender is being too soft. I like your descriptions much better.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4that was one of my
softer comments :) sorry for not living up to your expectations!
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Josh Trevino resents Keith O.
and his "adoring" fans, whom he lumps together as the "uneducated left".
And they call the left "elitists snobs"!
Clearly something he said hit a nerve with Joshie. Oh, if only he could educate the unruly mob to the wisdom of Trevino's way. Populism is so unclean. Democracy is so messy!
I'm only half stupid
Hey! I posted that yesterday...
Well, not your comments, but Josh & Keiths links.
Josh's take on it all is somewhat extreme in my view. He isn't projecting rationality at all. Makes me wonder exactly how much of what he says is dictated by the Claremont Institute.
Oops!
Sorry about the repeat.
Josh is becoming the intellectual Hugh Hewlitt. And no, that is not a compliment.
I'm only half stupid
Please. You added good stuff.
As such, please continue to do so.
Speaking of good stuff
I heard Charlie Rangle on Big Ed's show yesterday.
It was an eloquent and passionate statement about why he supports the draft.
http://audio.wegoted.com/podcasting/112106RangelCharles.mp3
(I don't know how to to the links the old fashioned way. I always used the short cut []
I'm only half stupid
I see our bretheren at RedState and
Paul Cella are continuing to publically flog American muslims for, well, for being muslim
.
I expect that kind of talk at LGF or Hugh Hewitt, but apparently Paul (& redstate) feel bashing Americans of a different religion sells visiting clicks. In the church I was raised in, they didn't call that patriotism. They called that RACISM. Sorry Ender.
Read the comments and weep.
No don't make me read Red State
please. No please don't. (Drinks poison)
I'm only half stupid
umm no
what it is called is standing against terrorism and wanting America safe. So you can stuff your accusations of racism. I agree with Paul and he is certainly not flogging all muslims.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Actually.
I think that the right wingers need to find a way to embrace our racism. No matter what we do we are accused of it so we need to find a way to turn that to our advantage.
Prejudice is only bad when it's wrong!
(This was a joke, in case the humor impaired are watching.)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Well here you go...
Allen '08!
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Yea, that worked out so well for George too....
And in Virginia of all places. If only he had run in Tennessee, then he would still be a Senator & Presidential aspirant.
Uh Ender...
When Mr. Cella says things like this:
(from the link above) He is in fact being a racist douchebag. He is equating all muslims to terrorists and worse implicitly saying we need to thin them out, or at least prevent them from living here.
It is nauseating, and wholy unacceptable.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Oh, BTW
The new site looks great. Big improvement. Congrats to Ender and whoever else worked on it.
One question -- How do I get back to the home page after posting a comment? Can't seem to find a button for that.
qui tacet consentire
you can
click on the top graphic, that brings you back, or you can click on the Home link below that graphic or way way at the bottom of the page.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Fred Phelps to picket Alabama funerals
That worthless POS Fred Phekps is coming to Huntsville, Alabama, to picket at the funerals of the four dead students from the bus crash this week.
Picketing at the funerals of dead soldiers is sick enough. This is beyond the pale. There are plans for counter protests.
Rev. Phelps might wish to take out some extra health care coverage before he comes down here because he might not get out of Huntsville in one piece.
When is God going to strike this bastard down?
Here is his press release:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/nov2006/20061121_huntsvill-alabama-sc...
qui tacet consentire
What do you think the odds
are that Mr. Hate is wrestling with his own demons because he is in fact GAY and can't cope with it.
Even worse he was in my neighborhood, protesting at a Catholic Church two blocks from where I live!!!!
I'm only half stupid
They were in Michigan last winter,
and the counter-protest was large enough to surround them completely and muffle their chants. So anyone walking to the theatre to see The Laramie Project (the reason for the protest) would see a large group of people standing nearby, smiling for no apparent reason.
It was cute, actually - and I'm happy so many counter-protest people came out and handled it so well.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I read this Op-Ed this AM in the Wash Post by Robert Kaplan
titled Interventionism's Realistic Future
. Later on, I ran across Glenn Greenwalds post today on it. Glenn held no punches back 
on this one, and after reading both I have to say that Kaplan ought to be at the least tarred & feathered and run out of town, at the most...well fill in your own blank with something awful.
I have to agree with one thing Glenn talks about. There HAS been a large amount of revisionism in the press of late about the current Iraq War. Why we went in, what our objectives where, who supported it, who planned it and what we can call a "victory" there. All very fluid revisionism, and it sure doesn't look good on the PNAC/neocons that started that ugly mess.
And let's not forget the culpability of the press
in the lead up to the war.
Never asking hard questions.
I remember cheering loudly if I hear ONE liberal voice in the media that spoke the truth. Partly why I was so impressed with Dean's straight talk.
The neocons are history. They're ultra unrealistic, hyper idealistic vision of exporting democracy with blood and US money is dead! Their vision for a new world order........, well how about they take up residence in Iraq and see what they have wrought on these people who have lost their country.
Here is an article by Chitra Ragavan
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/061119/27iraq.htm
Who Lost Iraq
Success has many fathers.
The mess in Baghdad many more.
The article documents who was in charge of leading the war effort in the first days, after the statue fell. A lot of blame to spread around, with some new insights on how Condi Rice failed to percieve the true interests of the US and underestimated the interests of the enemy.
I'm only half stupid
This morning Crooks & Liars links to an
NPR post about the secret Military Tribunals held at Guantanamo Bay
for the people being held there. They go over the audio recordings released (via FOIA) of the proceedings. The conclusion?:
Audio of the secret Gitmo tribunals in which the government produces no evidence of any sort, and relies on secret evidence which the accused is not allowed to see or even know about. The detainees are given the opportunity to rebut the secret evidence. But they are never told what the secret evidence is. The Pentagon dismisses such criticisms, arguing that the tribunals are fair.
Can we do the same thing to Darth Cheney
When the Democrats take over in January?
Problems with the Single Basket Politics post?
post on the top of the from page?
It is acting funny in my IE6 browser. Bascially I just see the graphics on the bottom left of that post and the text is all invisible. Mousing over the text causes it to wink in and out of view.
Weird.
Is anyone else see this?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4kUoVzscUQSptJBn
health quotes
sqcofa car insurance 
086961 home insurance 
:P cheap auto insurance 
whrrkz cheap health insurance 
16922
heading out to the movies
see yall later, and don't fight too much!
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
What do ya mean don't fight too much?
That is why we are here!!!
And for that I am grateful!
Have a great time. And thanks again for all
the hard work on the site Ender.
I'm only half stupid
thank you :)
There is plenty of work to do, and I am going to take my time accomplishing all the stuff on my list (in development button), but the good part of that is I am learning how to develop and improve a website and that will come in handy.
So I am enjoying figuring this stuff out.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I'm going to frame
these two comments. You two never got along more beautifully!
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
heh
yeah, must be the spirit of thanksgiving :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Who are the factions fighting in Iraq
I think to be able to get hold of the situation in Iraq, we should identify the different groups or factions that are fighting by their group's name. Find out what they are fighting for--their objectives/agenda and who are their leaders, who is funding them and if they would be willing to sit down for talks with each other under immunity.
Calling them sectarian clashes, jihadists etc is not helping it.
The answer.....
http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr134.html
To get stabiltiy, answer their needs. Those who are hopeless--then they need to feel Iraq's military might.
wel those are accurate names
"sectarian clashes", jihadists, etc - they are all present in Iraq. However I definitely think that we should be talking to most of the insurgent leaders to see if we can come to some sort of an arrangement. Pretty much anyone other than Al Qaeda should be on our list to talk to.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I think
it's most important to find political and non-religious, if possible, leaders, who understand that if they make the people of Iraq at least put a semblance of law and order we will start pulling out. It's not an easy thing to do as at this point we can't help them too openly so they are not tainted with being our lap-dogs and lose the support among the Iraqis.
Sic semper tyrannis