Wednesday Open Thread

Happy Wednesday! Army, Marine Corps to ask for more troops , which makes sense - we do need to improve our readiness. Also Obama argues the case that a black candidate can win the White House of which I have no doubt. I am not sure why if there is a minority candidate, immediately questions arise whether he can win or not because of his race. Come on. How about talking about his qualifications?

This is an open thread!

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in response to missliberties

why would I not be happy about the dissolusion of the USSR? Soviet Union was a horrible country that was a threat to the entire world and a repressive hellhole for its people. Why do you think people wanted to flee it? It wasn't because of the weather.

Islamic Extremism is different, but there don't have to be similarities for either to be a big threat. Threats come from different types of people, governments, philosophies, religions, etc.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

Well that is why I want you to dairy your thoughts and Feelings

about it. So we can argue, er I mean debate the "cold war era" and compare to the "era of extremism".

There are those that argue that Korbie was bluffing on his nuclear strength, much as Saddam did.

And that oddly the dissolution of the Soviet Union has led to the impoverished soviet satellite countries, while allowing the elite in the SU to grab up choice properties to the detriment of the promotion of democracy.

The breakup of the Soviet Union ended Russia's march to democracy

So why did so many western commentators hail the breakup of the Soviet Union as a "breakthrough" to democracy? Their reaction was based mainly on anti-communist ideology and hopeful myths.

Yeltsin abolished the Soviet Union with the backing of the nomenklatura elites - pursuing the "smell of property like a beast after prey", as Yeltsin's chief minister put it - and an avowedly pro-democracy wing of the intelligentsia. Traditional enemies in the pre-Gorbachev Soviet system, they colluded in 1991 largely because the intelligentsia's radical market ideas seemed to justify nomenklatura privatisation.

· Stephen Cohen is professor of Russian studies at New York University

And we can see Putin's rise has been fraught with questions. He seems to be more the heavy handed authoritarian than inspiring democratic leader.

It is the economy, stupid.

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you probably meant Gorby

instead of Korbie (isn't there like a pokemon character with that name?) and somehow I don't think USSR had to bluff about its nuclear strength considering they had around 25-30,000 warheads. I'll have more on the topic later, so maybe I will eventually diary it.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Korbie/Gorbie

Yeah, I am such an expert (not).

Since this is anniversary time for the end of the Soviet Union. There are some interesting discussions going on.

I am a CSpan junkie (yes it has ruined my life) and I heard Timothy Naftali co-author of "Krushchev's Cold War". He had access to recently opened archives and was very animated and enthusiastic in his discussion. Fascinating discussion and book.

Also today at 1:30 EST, there will be a discussion on the Fall of the Soviet Union held at the Woodrow Wilson Center, which I hope I have a chance to watch. I am sure I will be an "expert"' by then. ( they also have Cspan radio)

I work with a fella that is writing a paper on Bush 41 and the cold war, so my interest was sparked through conversations with him. Interesting and unusal that the SU won the war and still dissolved, eh!

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

SU

won which war?

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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WWll

He is an interesting fellow, and lucky him, I always ask him lots of questions when I get the chance.

I was fascinated that when I asked him, about his political ideology, he proudly stated that he was a Marxist. He said this with pride!

Offering an explanation that the hands that do the work are too far removed from the final product, and often folks don't have the opportunity to see the fruits of their labor and therefore do not have the chance to take pride in their accomplishments.

After listening to my conferance (divided attention however) on CSpan, one Urkanian offered up the reason for the anniversary discussion wasn't for the Soviet Union, but for those that were so involved in the chess games of power with the SU to mourn their loss that the Soviet Union of old is gone and the cold war era is over.

All the studied scholars agreed, that the one lesson from the Soviet Union that we can apply today is that it is Imperative that we talk to our enemies. Reagon had to continually insist on it, proclaiming, "We all live on one Planet. We must talk to the Soviets period."

It was interesting. I enjoyed especially listening to questions asked in thick Russian accents. The Russians always seem intelligent and deliberate thinkers.

It is the economy, stupid.

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soviet bloc

...the dissolution of the Soviet Union has led to the impoverished soviet satellite countries...

I think you must mean former soviet republics (with notable exception of Baltic states) as the former member countries of the block are doing quite well since the yoke of the soviet empire was lifted off of them. One of the reasons for it might have been their very lose integration with Russia and thus much less dependency on Russian natural resources and energy than in the case of the former republics of the SU.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

the wonders of freedom

and capitalism :) But yes, soviet satellites like Czechs and Poles were not completely impoverished to begin with before Russia started controlling them, unlike some of the middle asian Soviet republics that were unindustrialized to say the least.

However there are some good exceptions even to the Soviet Republics - the more western Baltic states (which were capitalist and doing well before Russia took em) are doing great again - Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia - and are now in NATO. Very prosperous after the fall of communism.

The middle asian former USSR republics sucked before USSR and are sucking still.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Baltcs

I think i made the exception for them. They were late comers to the workers paradise too - just like the members of the soviet bloc in easter Europe. The Baltics were sucked in much deeper, obviously, but by the time SU collapsed there were still plenty of people who remembered what it was like to live in a free country. People in SU, on the other hand, never had that experience, always living under the totalitarian/authoritarian iron fist, be it soviet or tsarist. Asian parts of the SU are/were, well... Asian, in a way my grandfather used this adjective - not meaning anything nice or highly civilized I assume.

And Ender - capitalism schmapitalism - more like Western European type, with a healthy dose of socialism - meaning free education till PhD, free health care, lots of vacation time, etc.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

Bah, I typed up a response

and it all disappeared when I went to preview. System's still a little buggy on occasion.

Long story short, I started going into some info about the Baltics, then I stopped just shy of giving the whole history of the Soviet Union's dissolution. So maybe it's better that comment disappeared.

And, compliments on the sig line: I'm a Lem fan, as well.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

………… parent

Dang it!

I would love to hear your thoughts on this. A long short long history would work for me.

I have pushed preview before thinking that I pushed post, and wondered why my comment disappeared. Was able to retrieve it by punching the back arrow and finding the comment still in preview mode. (I had to answer yes to the question if I wanted to resent the form to get there).

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

me too!

Especially from a fellow Lem fan :)

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

Thx!

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Bluffing

Gorbie didn't need to bluff, he had Rumsfield, Cheney, and all of what GHWB's crew called "the crazies" use falsified intelligence to inflate the Soviets' nuclear capacity. An office was set up in the Pentagon to question the CIA's intelligence, then stovepipe their versions to Regean. Sound familiar?

Also, Cheney, who more than anybody represents the modern conservative war-monger, advised Regean that speaking with the Russians was tantamount to admitting surrender to our sworn enemy. Totally unrealistic and out-of-touch, until you look at how rich Cheney & Rummy got from their defense-industry stock options -- then suddenly these two guys seem pretty smart. Unfortunately, their only allegiences was (is) toward themselves, but just as unfortunately, their followers (Ender et al) ate and continue to eat up the inflated threats to America because of ego and identity issues (actually policy defenses, of course, are never offered, only cries of "Defeatocrats" etc. hurled at their opponents like steaming turds from chimpanzees).

Fortunately for the rest of us, it doesn't really matter what these guys offer or what their cretinous followers eat up from their sweaty hands. They've lost all credibility, as evidenced by the recent landslide victory by the Democrats, so now it's just a matter of cleaning up their mess.

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the neo's were alive

and well even then.

But their mess is pervasive and not that easy to clean up. Defense contracts are a major part of our economy. The 50 state strategy.

The smartest thing would be to refocus defense strategy and resources on energy independence. Lots of jobs. Lots of research.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

That BBC show....

..... is a great resource for that era. If the right wing of both countries had not been dancing so feverishly with each other, Russia might be a lot more like Eastern Europe is today.

The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.

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Obama's qualifications??

He smart as a whip, deliberate and inspiring. He understands that nothing happens without citizen participation.

How about Hillary's qualifications? Caution. Triangulation. And a flag burning amendment. Bleeeeccccchhhhh!

McCains qualitifications....... same as Hillary's...... blecchhh!

I'll take hope and inspiration any day. Obama is a gift, yet to be unwrapped, but a gift non-the-less. He exhibits leadership qualities that Americana is literally starving for.

He asked his students to understand, the elements to success by saying first there is competance, then there is excellance, then there is mastery. One of his students that heard that message and never forgot it is Artur Davis (D-Al), the new Democratic Steering Cmte. Chief. He inspires people to be good citizens and good stewards of the community. That is leadership.

The rousing call for more troops, blah blah blah, where have we heard this before. And now we have to hear about it all day. How unsensational. Yawn!

It is the economy, stupid.

…………

Obama is more honest about his caution and moderation

than Hillary (or McCain for that matter) is. That's why I prefer him to her, even though neither are my preferred choice for '08.

Obama being a very big moderate would be good for the Dems in '08, but there would still be that Southern Strategy problem. Namely, there are some folk who will NEVER vote for a person of color, no matter what. Can Obama overcome that? I'd like to think he could but I don't know that he can.

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The Southern Strategy

is there and always will be.

Yet don't forget that there are plenty of minorities in the South for whom he could be a huge inspiration.

I think he could whistle his way right past Dixie.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Who are those folk?

Namely, there are some folk who will NEVER vote for a person of color, no matter what.

Do you know anyone like that? I mean, anyone younger than 65+? My father-in-law would have been in that category, but he's dead now, as are most who grew up in the time of true segregation. Any of our poll watchers got any demographic results on that question?

If a person makes it to the Presidential elections I have the hope that the vast majority of people will evaluate his character, not his color. If anything, I know people who would vote FOR him just because of his color (as for Hillary because of her gender) as they think it's way past time for those barriers to be formally breached.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

………… parent

George Allen and friends.

People that long for the days of the conferate union to return, I would guess.

Evaluate his character and not his middle name also.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Again, who are these people?

George Allen is one man.

Who are these "people who long for the days of the confederate union to return"? Are they just some sterotype you've heard of? Of course there's bound to be a handful lurking the the woods of Alabama playing soldier of fortune on the weekends, but do they really exist in any number worth mentioning? And, do they bother to vote?

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

………… parent

Well yes!

Can we just call it a distinction of class. You saw what happened in New Orleans.

Those poor folk, welfare recipients and law breakers, well they got what they deserved because they didn't pull themselves up by their boot straps. And it certainly isn't the federal govts business to interfere with what the states should be doing. The states can deal with civil liberties as they see fit. Civil liberties is just communism in disguise. I don't know why the ACLU defends these people, these welfare recipients that get a check from the government so they can drive their pink cadillacs. I swear if the govt ever takes away my gun so I can't defend myself from these law breakers I'll quit the Union.

(That is the uncomfortable gist of the Southern Strategy)

Thomas f. Schaller has written a book about it. Whistling Past Dixie

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

And yes George Allen is one man

but he had lots of supporters.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Who are these people? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?!?

Who did the anti Harold Ford people target with the "call me" ad?

What planet do you live on? Racism still lives here in the good ole USA. Those are the people who won't ever vote for any black man. ANY!

Are you doubting or disputing that? Have you ever read the book "Black Like Me?" That author is now dead & he did that stunt back in the 60's, but it's still true today.

………… parent

don't be shrill

because the world changed quite a lot since the 60s. People who deny that there has been incredible progress are the race-baiters who continue bashing and slandering those who don't support their affirmative action policies and other insidious stuff.

The "call me" ad had very little to do with race, regardless of volume of your accusations. Ford liked to party it up with the girls and that was used in the ad. I couldn't care less about the Southern history with black men and white women, I would've still made that ad because it was true. You don't subordinate the truth to people's sensitivities. And I am saying all that even though I liked the man (Ford is one of my favorite dems).

Just because racism still lives in the USA, doesn't mean it's on the same level as before and there was no progress. Enough is enough with this victim crap.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Excuse me

the Republican funded ad: targeted specifically

to re-open an ugly scar of history and watch the pus drip out of it for political gain was and is DISPICABLE!

To continue denying that this was the intent is inflammatory and a denial of history.

Admit the truth and move on, then the "shrillness" you speak of will disappate.

That dems would wonder if republicans would use such ugly tactics again is realistic, especially since you just endorsed it AGAIN as being "oh so innocent".

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Yes, let's all pretend

racism doesn't exist anymore. It's all "victim crap." Sometimes you make me want to yell.

I guess all those studies that say, when qualifications are equal, rich whites are hired first is just an aberration of the researchers.

I guess that sentencing of the teen who got 90 years for a brutal, racist attack was ordered by an activist judge.

I guess the leader of the Minutemen in Texas can't judge the racist character of his own organization , so he quit for the hell of it.

Do I need to come up with more examples? Believe me I can.

Yes, racism is not as apparent and it is not institutionalized to the same extent as it was 50 or 100 years ago. But does that mean it does not exist anymore? Does that not mean we should not raise awareness of the racist tendencies in the US and hope it just disappears because we are silent? Not me.

This is a microcosm of how you view the world. There are problems whether you wish to realize it or not. There are racism problems. There are problems in Iraq. There are corruption problems. There are problems with the government stripping our civil rights away. There are economic problems. All of these have to be addressed, but for some reason, the only problem you see in the world is a rag-tag group of unorganized extremists in Iraq who are the minority of the real problem there anyway.

We should confront these problems to make them dissipate, not just bury our heads in ignorance.

………… parent

Eggszactly!

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

I was not even close

to saying that racism does not exist anymore. Of course it does. My point is that the situation is ever improving, and I am happy that it is. Of course it is still a problem and should be addressed whenever it rears its ugly head but you can't keep making us pretend that the situation is the same as before.

I am also not going to pretend that I am very qualified to notice the problem - I am obviously not, but old attitudes are slowly melting away. It might take 50 years or a 100 years but we are getting there slowly but surely.

I'm personally hoping for Condi to break the mold, because it will take a republican woman to show ourselves (I don't care about the world) how far we've come from those infamous days of the past.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

So will you retract your statement

that the "ad" in question was just innocent.

Because the "problem" raised its ugly head in the "call me" ad and this right wing talking point that it was innocent, or not race baiting, or that after such a disgusting use of race for political gain when the dems mention, the right, as in, GoRight, wonders why dems are the ones that always bring it up.

We brought it up because the Republicans used it. That's all!

And good luck on your blind date with Condi:+)

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

why should I retract my statement

considering 1. I didn't call it innocent and 2. I still don't think it was racist or anything like that.

I thought it was a cute and well designed ad that pointed to some of Ford's issues.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Cute if you like scabs ripped off pus infected wounds.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

more like

cute like the playboy playmates.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

She was cute no doubt.

Why reopen Pandora's box for political gain.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

My original point stated

that there are some people who will never vote for a person of color.

Don't make more out of that statement than I made, and certainly don't make any less of it.

Do you doubt the truth of the statement?

………… parent

I never denied that

the point was that their number is dwindling, and is nowhere near the problem we had in the 60s and before.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

In a racially relaxed culture

George Allen would have been totally rejected as an idiot, even by those who agreed with some of his issues.

As he was a hairbreath from winning, I can only suppose that most of those folk would not vote for a person of color even if that person was Colin Powell. I think that Obama would find these folk not in his corner however even if he was John Kerry.

The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.

………… parent

Different question

I did not ask about racism. I asked a specific question in response to these statements:

"Namely, there are some folk who will NEVER vote for a person of color, no matter what."

"People who long for the days of the confederate union to return"

I am asking you both to question those stereotypes. Just because racism exists, does that make these statements true?

There is certainly at least one person in the 300 million of us that feels like that. But you seem to be assuming that these specific sentiments are much more broadly held than that. I question that, because no matter how much random racism I see, I don't see those two things.

Black men and women are holding all sorts of elected offices. Even the Secretary of State position has been held sucessively by two African-Americans. Both had the respect of the people and I sure didn't see anyone anywhere saying that either did not qualify for that position because of their race.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

………… parent

Both of those statements are undoubtedly true

and we see that public sentiment is changing which is also true.

I question your questioning of the quesion in question.

Yes stereotypes do exist. We hope they change, but ignoring them and hiding your head in the sand is foolish. You change them by looking at them, no matter how uncomfortable that truth is.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

I Hope I'm wrong

And I'm a youngster, but I do hear a lot about the Wilder effect. In short, poll numbers differ widely on race-loaded questions so no reliable data can really be gathered.

Few people will openly admit not voting for a candidate because of his/her race. So when pollsters ask, they won't admit it because of fearing being perceived as racist. The case of Douglas Wilder is presented, which, if I'm correct happened in the 80s.

Maybe Obama will change perceptions, but I know many non-minorities who admit in front of white-only audiences that they will be cordial in public to minorities but shun them or keep them at arms-length in private (I'll work with them, but not mingle..") So I think putting a minority up for president at least puts that issue on the table.

So, when people ask "who's saying such things," you won't find too many ready to provide reliable data showing it. I saw the CNN special last night and some quite interesting data was presented on other "hidden" racism qualities like linguistic discrimination (where housing in certain areas were not shown/denied to someone if they "sounded black" on the phone). Or the whole study of "black named persons" not being called back on interviews despite equivalent resumes.

But, I admit we have come a long way. I don't know if America is ready for a black president or even a female. We'll see.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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Personal vs Public Sphere

I agree with you Charles J, that there are people who do not admit other races into their personal spheres --- they do not generally "mingle" with other races. And that there is subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) discrimination in other areas that people still consider personal, like who moves into one's neighborhood. Often there is a stronger element of classism over racism in the personal sphere. It's OK if the "right kind" of the other race is involved.

But in the public sphere, such as the workplace or the government or public service (police, hospitals, etc), mingling is much more commonplace. We are becoming accustomed to seeing diversity there, and tend to want to judge people in the public sphere based more on merit than class or race. That's why I think we'll see a black (or hispanic or asian) or female president long before people in general become colorblind in all their personal interactions.

But then again, I live in Houston, one of the most racially integrated cities in the nation, so perhaps that affects how I see this. If, like one of my sibilings, I lived in whitebread suburbia where the only "ethic" person one sees is the occasional American Indian I might have a different POV. But I found it strange visiting there and was very glad to get back here, where the sight of a blue-burka'd woman being driven home seemed normal.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

………… parent

Interesting. Do you believe

that the "not mingling" bias is a white only phenomenon or equally likely to occur within any race?

Do you believe that there is any reason to suspect that Republicans vs. Democrats are more likely to engage in this bias?

Politically incorrect question: Does exhibiting this particular bias in ones personal sphere make one a) a racist and/or b) evil or bad?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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How groups form

Biologically, I think we're wired to draw to our own group. From an evolutionary standpoint, anyone who did not have this tendency ran the risk of being removed from the gene pool by leaving their natal group for an unknown and often hostile group. Over time, natural selection reinforced the tendency to remain in one's natal group. This is how physically distinct "races" formed in the first place: the same group of people choosing to interbreed with each other instead of with outsiders, over milennia.

Today, both biology, physical location, and social mores still tend to reinforce the group thing. I doubt that it is more prevalent in one party or the other.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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I believe you have it backwards

Diversity in the gene pool can be advantageous. I believe that the evolutionary drive to support one's own group is based more on the Selfish Gene phenomena. Defending/assisting those with similar genes meant that the genes that were most similar to your own were more likely to carry on. This doesn't help the individual all that much, but the genes themselves take advantage. Kind of like why ants defend the queen even though it doesn't make it any more likely that they will have children (0% in any case). The "Defend-Those-Like-Me" gene(s) have tended to survive because they defended each other via their different hosts.

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The bias is a class bias

just as much as it is a racial bias.

Since you own a computer you must be in a class that can at least put food on the table AND afford a computer.

Imagine this scenario. A policeman here's a ruckus in a poor neighborhood. A black man is holding a can of hair spray. The policeman shoots as he thinks the man is armed and dangerous.

Now you as a computer owner that can put food on the table would report on that situation most likely from the policemans point of view. The policeman was in a highcrime (classdistinction) neighborhood and was protecting himself.

If you were a young black man who lived in the neighborhood where the shooting occured, but you did not own a computer ( a class distinction ) then you would likely tell the story of the shooting from a different perspective. Why did the cops shoot my friend. He was only holding a can.

Now from which perspective do you think the media tells the story, considering that the execs and the announcers all own a computer.

Implicit in the way the story is told is class. The white person tells the policemans side. The black person tells the victims side. From which perspective do you think the media most often covers these events. Is that racist? Is it class distinction.

If the black person told the story of the shooting, he might talk about the circumstances of his troubles finding a job. (Would you hire him?) A more honest viewpoint would do a lot to get rid of racial bias.

You can pretend as much as you want. You are telling the story of the "call me" add from a white persons perspective and claiming how you are NOT racist. I would venture to guess that a black person might have a different point of view. But it is a story you do not want to hear. It makes you uncomfortable.

It is the economy, stupid.

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I believe ...

that the first statement, unfortunately, is likely true. I do not believe that the people who hold such a believe are any more likely to be Republican than Democrat.

I doubt that the second is literally true, but there are always some people who are so low that they surprise you, so who really knows.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

You obviously don't live in the South

or you wouldn't ask such a ridiculous question.

There are thousands and thousands of white voters right here in Alabama who would rather wear Tennessee orange or cheer for Jeff Gordon than vote for a black candidate.

They will tell pollsters that, "Of course, I'd vote for a black candidate," but they won't. It's called the Wilder Factor or the Bradley Factor or, now, the Ford Factor. White voters lie to pollsters because they do not want to sound racist.

Rep. Artur Davis is considering running for the Senate from Alabama in 2008 against Jeff Sessions. Davis is a tremendous candidate. If he was white, he'd kick Sessions' ass from Huntsville to Mobile. But he's black.

Now, Alabama is about 26 percent black, which means a black candidate needs to get about a third of the white vote to win a statewide election. That's better than Tennessee, where the black population is only about 17 percent. And Davis does not have the family baggage that Ford had. So we'll see how well he does.

qui tacet consentire

………… parent

Horse crap.

They will tell pollsters that, "Of course, I'd vote for a black candidate," but they won't. It's called the Wilder Factor or the Bradley Factor or, now, the Ford Factor. White voters lie to pollsters because they do not want to sound racist.

This is total horse crap, IMHO. If you have any evidence please provide it for public scrutiny.

This is the most disengenuous tactic used by the left that just annoys the hell out of me. It is the same thing as telling me I actually am a racist but "I just don't realize it".

It's like an "I win the argument for free card" or something. No actual evidence required, and don't bother telling me how you actually feel because you won't even know your lying.

(This is not directed at you personally, just this type of argument in general.)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

So, you slader the left by saying

this is a disingenuous tactic used by the left

and yet you provide no basis to refute what he says.

Who do you think puts up a better point here? You are saying racism doesn't exist on that level or scale in America. Honestly, it's you who has to show it doesn't. We see evidence it does every day. And it isn't just white people. Every group has their racists.

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Hmm, torn on this

technically, you have to produce evidence to prove the positive (impossible to prove God does not exist ), but on the other hand, it is a paradox to require someone to collect objective data on lying.

I think we hit a rut here. Perhaps looking at other trends (prevalence of racism in a region, history, etc) and subjective experience may be the only route possible.

………… parent

Perhaps you should try this new thing

called Google.

Here is an example of the "Wilder Effect" as it applied to a Republican candidate:

BOBBY JINDAL'S DEFEAT in the Louisiana governor's race Saturday is a bigger loss for Republicans than just an office they've held for eight years. For now, it denies the party an impressive new national figure, a 32-year-old Indian-American who's destined to be a political star sometime--but not yet.

Why did Jindal lose after leading his Democratic opponent, Kathleen Blanco, in statewide polls in the weeks before the election? In a word, race. What occurred was the "Wilder effect," named after the black Virginia governor elected in 1989. Wilder, a Democrat, polled well, then won narrowly. Many white voters, it turned out, said they intended to vote for a black candidate when they really didn't. Questioned by pollsters, they were leery of being seen as racially prejudiced.

Jindal's advisers worried that he might lose the "Bubba vote," rural whites unwilling to vote for a black candidate or even a dark-skinned Indian-American. The Jindal camp's fears were realized. A Republican normally needs two-thirds of the white vote to win in Louisiana to compensate for losing nearly all of the black vote. But Jindal got only 60 percent of whites, according to an analysis by GCR & Associates Inc., a political consulting firm. Its findings were reported in the New Orleans Times-Picayune.

Link

And here's another GOP candidate who was hurt by the Wilder Effect:

An interesting postscript on the Maryland Senate race: Exit polls suggest that the "white lie" phenomenon, in which more white voters tell pollsters that they'll vote for the black candidate than actually go through with it in the end, may have helped doom black Senate candidate Michael Steele. This is a phenomenon more often noted against Dems, of course, since African-American candidates are Democrats much more often than they're Republican, but in this case, it may have harmed GOPer Steele as well.

Steele lost by 10 points — a higher spread than some pre-election polls suggested. Exit polls show that white voters split their vote evenly between Cardin and Steele, well short of the percentage of whites that ordinarily back the GOP candidate in seriously contested races in Maryland. In pre-election polls, meanwhile, respondents were promising to vote for Steele at a higher rate: a Baltimore Sun poll from five days before the election had Steele leading Cardin among whites by seven points. So the Republican candidate may have been victimized by the "white lie" after all.

Link

qui tacet consentire

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You obviously don't know

what the hell you're talking about.

Seriously.

There seems to be a number of Republicans who believe that America is some sort of race-neutral environment where candidates are judged by their qualifications instead of th4e color of their skin.

What a steaming load of BS that is.

Did you people grow up in Fantasyland?

You (Republicans in general) put this BS argument forward as a way to justify getting rid of everything from affirmative action to the Voting Rights Act.

And then you have the gall to hold yourselves up like some sort of paragons of racial equality because you "believe" in judging candidates by their qualifications.

You propagated the "Southern Strategy" and rode it to electoral success by appealing to the racist instincts of a large portion of the electorate. And now you want to pretend that all those racist voters for whom you sold your soul are now enlightened to the point that they will judge a candidate on the basis of his qualifications in stead of the color of his skin.

If you want me to believe that, you are going to have to kiss me -- because I like to be kissed when I'm being screwed.

qui tacet consentire

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But Davis did win a Congressional seat

So some portion of Alabama's white electorate did vote for a black candidate. Maybe only a small part (I don't know anything about his district) but some nonetheless.

Do you think that most folks would say that Alabama's atttitudes are representative of the US as a whole? So while there are pockets of people with that "I'd never vote for a black candidate" mindset, I still like to think that those pockets are small and shrinking.

Alabama may just have more history to overcome than other states. I'm from Texas, which is really not the South, although it is often lumped into it in error.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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According to the demographics

of his district :

Ethnic Composition: 35.5% White, 61.7% Black, 0.6% Asian, 0.2% Native American, 1.3% Hispanic, 0.7% Other

he could win without a single white vote. That probably (I am quite sure there were plenty of whites that voted for him) did not happen, but I was unable to track down a racial make-up for his election results to see for sure.

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He was also unopposed this year

That helps.

But Davis' 7th district was drawn up to be black-majority at the same time that the 6th District was drawn up to be heavily Republican.

qui tacet consentire

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The True Thing

seems to resonate from this thread.

Just the implication of racism, puts people

on the defensive.

It is the economy, stupid.

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One Man

Yeah, one man, who at one point was one of the GOP's shining stars and best hopes for 2008. Ah, memories . . .

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Yes, unfortunately.

Do you know anyone like that? I mean, anyone younger than 65+?

I have a cousin like that. I'd guess he's a bit older than me, say 40 or so. Maybe 50 at the outside. We aren't close.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Me too

I have several family members who would never vote for someone solely based on their race. Sad, but true. And I don't even live in an area with 'historic' racism (I tried to frame this the best I could, pico and quaoar).

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The biggest fight my mother had with her father

was after she invited her black friend to a party at the house and was told no you can't do that.

They didn't speak for months.

It is the economy, stupid.

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I live here in "liberal" California

and I know racists. We don't "hang out" cause I'm not afraid of telling them what assholes they are.

But I know friends of friends who are morons along the race relations line. which btw, my sister married an Ethiopian guy and I have 3 great nieces by them, so don't get me started or I'll tell you stories she & they had to deal with while living in NYC (and she's still there, the Village of course!)

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In all fairness...

I grew up in the suburbs north of NYC & I knew many racists there too. I grew up with them. The twist? They were black kids that were good friends of mine till we got into High School and then found I was everything that was wrong with thier life. Some of 'em, you could still be friends with if none of their black friends saw them with you. But they were very up front about saying that around their friends, I wasn't going to be one of 'em.

It's a terrible statement about the social norms in America. I don't think that holds as much truth now as it did 30 years ago, but none the less, idiots abound in all communities.

PS - I never held it against black folk in general (typical liberal) or any new friends of color I made, but I didn't value the friendships of my old black friends quite as much after that rude awakening.

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Blacks

can hold racist attitudes, but the difference is that blacks do not hold any significant power in this society. For example, when can a black person choose not to vote for a white person and have any expectation of winning at the executive level? Hasn't ever happened.

The fact that we can have this argument about whether or not whites would vote for a black person shows how privileged we are in this country as a race (assuming you are white. Disclaimer--I am technically bi-racial as of 3 generations ago. I technically pass for white, but I have some residual characteristics of my African heritage also. My uncle on the other hand would never pass for a white person. Strange how genetics work).

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And I didn't hold it against my High School friends that they

buckled under to their other friends peer pressure. I know what happened if they didn't. I saw more than one of them get beat up by their friends for hanging with us.

It was just a sad thing all the way around. These were guys I went to kindergarden with. then 8 years later, I'm the enemy? I let it slide, but I wasn't pleased with them because I wasn't the enemy. I was their friend. They did have to face racist idiots all the time, unlike me. So slack was due. But, I did feel less close to them.

What are you gonna do?

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I don't see that that matters, frankly.

but the difference is that blacks do not hold any significant power in this society.

Prejudiced blacks have enough power to perpetuate and pass on the racist mindsets and that is power enough. I don;t accept arguments that racism is beter or worse in a given individual given how much power they have to act on it. The racism itself is equally odious in a CEO as in a bag lady.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Do we really have to rehash this again?

I'd love to give you my whole spiel about race, society, politics, and power again, but I don't really have time, nor does it seem to sink in when I write it anyway.

Cliff notes:
Yes, racism = bad. But sometimes racism has worse effects according to context. Power usually relies on context. Example: a slave owner is racist to blacks and has power to act (whip, sell, force to work, etc). The slave may have racist attitudes towards white people but can't really act on them in any significant way. Same level of importance. Only an idiot would say yes. Now take this down a notch and examine the power levels in our contemporary society. Not as direct, but still the same idea.

Sorry if I sound condescending, but these repetitive arguments become frustrating.

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And you post here, why?

I'm sorry specter but if you don't like repetitive arguments I think you may be in the wrong place :)

I say that with no animosity, but do you really expect that our first time through any particular issue of disagreement we'll all suddenly see things the same way?

I do have to object to your continued insistence that your arguments haven't "sunk in." I have internalized them, especially seeing as I have heard them a great many times. I just reject them as false. I have heard, and, I think, understood, and yet disagreed.

Here if I may is a nutshell counterargument:
The slave from your example does indeed have a great deal of power, in that he controls his actions and he may choose to act out his racism, which is every bit as ugly as the slaveowners. Particularly when his racist actions reinforce the slaveowner's racism, or the convince the slaveowner's son of a racist point of view. He has the power to live up, or live down, to his potential and by doing so he shapes the world around him. If he chooses to be racist (and on some level it is a choice) then he is helping to perpetuate racism in general including that of the powerful (in your terms) who can act on their racism in direct ways.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I ask myself that question all the time

Just kidding :)

I don't mind repetitive arguments if I do not feel they are redundant (meaning one of us is making gains on convincing the other).

Can you elaborate on your example, because I'm seriously not following. It seems the slave's actions are limited by his powerlessness to me and that is where our difference is.

Sorry about my shortness. I am grading at