Tuesday Open Thread

It sure was a fun discussion yesterday. The Bush State of the Union is coming up. Doesn't it seem like the violence in Iraq has calmed down a lot? Just a short while ago it was 50-100 a day and now we get maybe 15-30?

Castro is in serious condition with "diverticulitis complications" .

What's new with you guys?

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No it doesn't seem

like the violence in Iraq has calmed down. Read Juan Cole for more here . If I were Bush and my ratings went down as much after speeches as his did after that "Surge" speech last week I'd think about skipping the State of the Union Speech. ;)

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I don't know

but 9 killed in Baghdad is not all that bad compared to recent stuff.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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At least 26 killed

and about a hundred more wounded. (link ) Doesn't sound like much of an improvement to me.

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ok, not a good day then

we'll see if a whole bunch of new troops changes that.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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They won't.

The insurgents will simply move somewhere else for a while. Kind of like trying to hold flowing water in your hands.

The same questions apply now to those promoting the phony "new strategy" that applied when I wrote this.

A few of my questions from that post for you, haystack, GoRight and Steve Foley who ran away and never came back:

Do you think we are actually training an Iraqi army? And if so, do you have cites to back up your claim?

What information can you provide from credible sources that suggests the situation in Iraq is improving due to our continued presence? What metrics do you suggest we use to measure improvement?

Do you want to send more troops? If so, how many and for how long?

You say that Iraqi public opinion is not defining. How does American public opinion figure into your calculus given the results of today's AP poll on Iraq?

Is it possible to sustain an American presence in Iraq over the long term when public opinion in both the U.S. and Iraq is overwhelmingly opposed to our presence?

Also from the same post:

Given that the trajectory of the situation has gone steadily downhill over the course of our time in Iraq to the point now where the country is producing less oil, there are fewer hours of daily electricity, the number of civilian deaths continues to climb, the stability of the government and government agencies has continued to decline, our casualty rate has gone up, the cost to us has steadily risen per month, and all of these trends do not show any signs of reversing direction, how, exactly, do you propose that we "leave them in a better situation than now?"

Please be specific.

Thanks.

I don't expect answers because the supporters of this "plan" don't have answers. I find it humorous and ironic that Bush, Cheney and McCain continue to demand those who oppose this stupid surge offer up a plan, as if the Iraq Study Group never existed (to name just one, more intelligent plan).

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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I am not

a big "supporter of this plan" necessarily. But I am interested to see what happens. It's not like anyone can influence whether it happens or not so I treat it as a done deal.

It doesn't look like there is much we can do so I won't offer any ideas of my own. Iraqis have to fix this mess unfortunately.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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You've certainly changed your tune from just a few

... short weeks ago.

Today you write this:

It doesn't look like there is much we can do so I won't offer any ideas of my own. Iraqis have to fix this mess unfortunately.

On December 10, you wrote this:

we are occupying a nation and we screwed some stuff up. Because we screwed some stuff up, or at least played a part in creating the current situation, I feel we have some responsibility to the people there to leave them in a better situation than now.

Based on our own estimates, if we leave right now, there is a great possibility of degeneration into a much more violent situation. If the people there want us to leave but we think that it would cause more death, we are acting in their own best interests by temporarily ignoring the public opinion.

So to me, morally, this is comparable to someone who wants to do something that will potentially lead to his death, and I am ignoring his wishes while trying to save him.

So one month has really turned you around, eh?

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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I am a lot more

pessimistic about it and there are two big factors affecting it:

Our ability to prevent degeneration is shown to be increasingly ineffective

and

There is obviously almost no political will left at home to do anything constructive in Iraq that involves keeping our troops there for an extended period of time - not that it would necessarily help (see first factor) but that is the only way to actually be responsible about what is happening there.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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So would you support phased withdrawal?

...

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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yeah, why not

Absent a will to do anything new in Iraq, I would support it - and I think that is what is going to happen anyways.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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"... a will to do anything new..."

Plugging 20,000 more troops into Iraq is new. Not smart, but new.

If you had your druthers, what would you do?

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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absent a will by anyone

else other than Bush... Bush is still willing to try "new" things but he is almost all alone.

At this point? I'd probably pull the troops out to the bases outside the cities and away from the patrols and putting down sectarian violence. Focus more on fighting insurgent strongholds and al qaeda. That would free up at least half of our forces to go home.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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That is the Murtha plan

I hear Pelosi talking too about changing the Iraq mission to --instead of just combat--make it a training mission.

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Yeah, but Murtha is the devil.

At least that's what I've read at RedState.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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Don't post that to RedState.

You'll get banned.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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I think

they'd cut me some slack - plus I wouldn't say it there :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Make sure to compare apples and apples

There may be a dip in violence (or at least a slowing in its growth) over the next couple of months as winter tends to show such a drop. You'll have to compare the level of violence against last winter and it will have to be a sustained drop to have any correlation with the troop surge. So if there is a short drop and then a resurgence of violence, don't take that as a "It is a good strategy, let's surge more".

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Yes, all quiet

on the Middle East front, except 109 killed today by bombs. Oh yeah, 4 more US troops (3,026 total) were killed Monday.

I sense progress.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida

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We send the Chinese trillions. We buy from Russia.

We even buy from Vietnam. So what's the big deal with conservatives about Cuba?

Why are conservatives still pissed at a home grown revolutionary who kicked out a corrupt and undemocratic regime back in the 50's? Why? Because Cuba's so close to the US? Because he couldn't be bought?

China is a much bigger threat to the US interests. Me? I think it's because the rightwingers think this is one country we can financially ruin and get back.

Here's the thing. The people in Cuba....they don't like the financial straight jacket we've fitted them with, but they don't blame Castro for it. They like the system they have down there. It's the American Cubans that righties are appealing to because they still have a hard time swallowing the fact that they lost.

We should trade with and travel to Cuba just like China. If you claim we shouldn't, tell us why you aren't being hypocritical.

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Florida Politics

If Florida was not a swingstate, we would be trading with Cuba and normal relations already.

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Tom Tomorrow's This Modern World's new installment

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Tom Tomorrow is great.

Damn. THAT is funny. Sad, but funny. Especially this:

And he resolved never again to listen to things he didn't want to hear.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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Lieberman

looks like a cross between a Victorian-era cherub and a pencil-pusher from a Dickens novel.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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oh yeah

did you guys watch 24 last night... wow.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Wow is right..

I thought somebody was gonna stop old dude before he flipped the switch.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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plus Jack

shooting Curtis... I mean it was the right thing to do but still crazy to see.

But yes, the nuke was wow.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Pajama Media's Michael Ledeen did an interview with

Salon.com just this weekend it appears. You really should read what he has to say.

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via Digby, Should the IRS be cutting deals with large

Corporations, which let them off the hook for unpaid taxes, while still going after the middle class & the poor full throttle?

a Cliff Notes quote:

"Top officials at the Internal Revenue Service are pushing agents to prematurely close audits of big companies with agreements to have them pay only a fraction of the additional taxes that could be collected, according to dozens of I.R.S. employees who say that the policy is costing the government billions of dollars a year."

click through Digby's links. It's an abomination to American citizens. My only problem....I don't own a pitchfork.

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Hey, what do you have against the free market?

I'm sure lordzorgon will be here momentarily to tell us why this is the correct course of action for the IRS.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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Exactly

Last night, he tried to tell me that Greenspan and Nobel-prize winning economist, Joeseph Stiglitz , don't know what they are talking about because they didn't agree that the poor having TVs and computers shows that the income gap between rich and poor is not increasing.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida

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Why did Israel shut down peace talks with Syria?

I don't have that answer. From this article in Haaretz.com, I can't understand why they wouldn't continue to pursue this. It seems to give Israel everything it wanted and was certainly much more advantageous in it's terms to Israel than to Syria.

WTF?

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God's Chosen People: The Neoconservatives

don't need an mandate to do anything. I speak not of the Israeli people, but the leaders who in Israel, the NeoConservatives, and in this country who refuse to listen to their own citizens.

They have a mandate from God to take over the Middle East, remove the Arab threat, and reshape the world. That is what the people that refuse to cooperate on any level of negotiations believe.

I think they are insane.

Their pride has suffered a blow. What is worse than having a once powerful animal, trapped and wounded in a corner. They lash out in fear and desparation.

What is fascinating to me, is that both the hard right (David Duke) and the hard left (The Nation) view this man, in the world of "conspiracy theories" as responsible for much of the foreign and domestic policy we see in progress today.

In March of 1998 Norman Podhoretz wrote this Neoconservativsm: A Eulogy

NEOCONSERVATISM IS usually identified as a
movement of New York Jewish intellectu-
als, and there is no question that the ex-radicals
who became neoconservatives were mostly intel-
lectuals of Jewish birth who came from or
worked in New York.


Neoconservatism came into the world to com-
bat the dangerous lies that were being spread by
the radicalism of the 60's
and that were being ac-
cepted as truth by the established liberal institu-
tions of the day. More passionately and more ef-
fectively than any other group, the neoconserva-
tives exposed those lies for what they were: ex-
pressions of hatred, rooted in utopian greed...

Astonishing.

Their view:

No More Dirty Hippies (liberals)/More War/ Democracy Will Provide the End of HIstory

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Oh, and by the way...

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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I think Obama

is a fine candidate for the Left. He is certainly eloquent and not extremely liberal. His main problem is lack of experience but otherwise he is inspiring.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Fishing in Iran

The tension between America and Iran is caused in part by Iran’s activities in Iraq. Dick Cheney, the vice-president, said on January 14th that “It's been pretty well known that Iran is fishing in troubled waters, if you will, inside Iraq, and the president has responded to that.” The arrest of the men in Arbil mirrored a round-up of Iranians in Baghdad last month. After that incident, two who turned out to be diplomats were soon released and the rest were kicked out of the country.

from The Economist

It is also pretty well known Mr. Cheney that the US is fishing in troubled waters in Iraq.

The reality is how much of a threat is Iran to the US. They have a small GDP, a small population, 70% of which is opposed to their fanatical leader, and a fanatical leader who responds in kind with the sort of "cowboy politics" that Bush has engaged in for the last six years.

Attacking Iran would be sheer foolishness. And who realizes this, Mr. Freedom Fries, Walter Jones, who is sponsoring a Joint Resolution, that states

"No provision of law enacted before the date of the enactment of this joint resolution shall be construed to authorize the use of military force by the United States against Iran."

If the US attacks Iran, will it push the moderate pro-Western secular young population, that makes up a large part of their population to rally around an unpopular loud mouth President of Iran.

Walter Jones sponsors a Joint Resolution to Limit the Presidents Authority.

The Rules of Engagement

As Sun Tsu wrote, know thy enemy, know thyself, in a thousand battles, a thousand victories. Going into Iraq, our leaders did not know our enemy. They do not really seem to have known America.

from Pat Buchannon The American Conservative

Why in light of everything that has transpired is this administration being so disrespectful to the will of the people, ignoring laws, circumventing the constitution, and thumbing their noses at world opinion.

Most astonishing is that they still continue to do so. Do they really know America?

Their is a concerted effort by both the left and the right to stop this administration from Executive Overreach. May it be successful.

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Because the neocons don't care about Sun Tsu,

They don't know his philosophies and if you brought him up in their midst, they'd have you thrown from the building.

They don't know about Iran, and they don't care to know.

They do what they do only to energize their fellow neocons & world dominion rabble. Everyone else, you, me, the elected majorities in the House & the Senate, don't mean a thing to them. We're all just crap they can't seem to scrape off their shoe.

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Those pesky people

just pawns in their chess game.

We're all just crap they can't seem to scrape off their shoe.

Oh the inconvenience!

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The BBC has a good article on the Iranian populace

today too. Apparently, as per the BBC, there is "Growing pressure on Ahmadinejad" to moderate his policies. The people are not happy about their top guy right now.

With that in mind, what do you think is going to happen? I suspect that the bush43 administration will do something dramatic & drastic to outrage the Iranian people and drive them back into the arms of the man they hate.

Hey, they did it to the Talibahn, they did it to the Iraqi people wrt Hussein. Why doubt they'll blunder down the same misadventure path again (it seems to be the only path they can stumble down, doesn't it).

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While We are BoGGGGGGed Down in the Middle East

America's Low Profile in Asia Spells Trouble

from the Internation Herald Tribuine.

This is what I am talking about. Wake UP People. The No Child Left Behind meme can now be said of the United States. Only it is Every Nation Is Leaving the US Behind.

While we are bogged down in Iraq, the world summits that would in the past have looked to the US to counterbalance the rising stars of Russia and China, are carrying on without us.

A conferance of influence where the US is a no show.

This is RIDICULOUS. While China, and Russia and using briefcases to deal with the world at large, the US is busy trying to thwart the efforts of a small group of people that want to attack Iran.

Iran is the LEAST of our problems. Now box you have put us in guys!

The US is a No Show!

The successive meetings — of the 10-member Association of Southeast Asian Nations, or Asean; the "Asean plus three" group, which adds China, Japan and South Korea; and the East Asian Summit, which includes India, Australia and New Zealand — have served to underline how far America's preoccupation with the Middle East has weakened its role in East Asia, at the very time many would welcome more U.S. engagement to balance the rise of China.

While they say globalization is the great equalizer the US is and will continue to, until it changes its UnREALISTIC foreign policy, continue to fall behind the rest of the world.

The longer we stay in the Middle East, the faster our power is waning. How stupid is that.

To wholly focus on the little country of Iraq right now as the answer to all of our problems is utter stupidity!

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Oh and thanks for the link.

What is the US going to do?

To lead this country out of this Quagmire, will require humility, admiting mistakes and a drastic change in foreign policy. Which means announcing to the world that US military solutions, do not work. They will not save the world, and it is time to come into the 21st Century with a NEW Attitude of humility and respect.

That we have all the weaponry, no longer matters. That we have the largest military no longer matters. War is not the answer and it should never have been.

If the neocons want to be truly neo, then they should update their PNAC and include this hard learned FACT. The best way to peace is with a Peace Corps, no a Military Corps.

Evil Dictators will not stand, because the people that live under them will not tolerate it. Technology says so.

Buy everyone in Iran an iPhone. They can then plan the overthrow of their own leaders. They don't need our nukes in their backyard.

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Jim Webb will give the response to SOTU

Wonderful news.

One of my favorite Senators. Why?

Because I think he can stand up to these people to help extract the US from the impending war in the middle east.

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That should be fun. Webb is not afraid to slug Bush.

Metaphorically, of course.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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this is hilarious

Marxists' Apartment A Microcosm Of Why Marxism Doesn't Work

The filthy, disorganized apartment shared by three members of the Amherst College Marxist Society is a microcosm of why the social and economic utopia described in the writings of Karl Marx will never come to fruition, sources reported Monday.

hahaha

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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So is this...

800,000 Privileged Youths Enlist To Fight In Iraq

'We've Been So Selfish'

WASHINGTON, DC—Citing a desire to finally make a difference in Iraq, in the past two weeks, more than 800,000 young people from upper-middle- and upper-class families have put aside their education, careers, and physical well-being to enlist in the military, new data from the Department Of Defense shows.

...

Added Grace: "Whether I agree with the war or not, our president needs us, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let our least advantaged citizens bear the brunt of this awesome burden."

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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Hysterical!

They need to have the resolve and the capacity to sequence the mission.

If they were better capitalists they could Hire someone to clean up after them.

Or in the socialist norm, they could bring over a bunch of cute girls, and inspire themselves to make a better impression, and get the girls to do the job. One for all, all for one.

In the eyes of the great society, they need some counseling perhaps for their messiness and drinking problems, and an inspecter to come in once a week and regulate the situation.

Clearly they have let their situation deteriorate into anarchy. They have lost site of their principles!

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That reminds me of

this classic article , also from the Onion:

Baggett and Mergens are just two of 43 employees who take part in the swirling, Byzantine machinations that is life at Applebee's. Every day, hundreds of acts of devious strategizing take place behind the restaurant's placid, service-with-a-smile façade.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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The regional war

is beginning:

Saudis consider sending troops to Iraq
Government ‘deeply skeptical’ al-Maliki can make Bush surge plan work

Saudi Arabia believes the Iraqi government is not up to the challenge and has told the United States that it is prepared to move its own forces into Iraq should the violence there degenerate into chaos, a senior U.S. official told NBC News on Tuesday.

Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal made no effort to mask his skepticism Tuesday about President Bush’s proposal to send 21,000 more U.S. troops to Iraq to stem sectarian fighting.
. . .
In fact, Saudi leaders are privately “deeply skeptical” that the government of Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki could implement the U.S. plan, the senior U.S. official said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity to NBC News’ Andrea Mitchell, who is traveling with Rice.

The Saudi government has signaled in the past that it would oppose an early withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq, fearing it would leave minority Sunni Muslims at the mercy of Shiite Muslim militias.

The Saudis’ primary concern is the Sunni population of Anbar province, the senior U.S. official. The official said the Saudis had informed Washington that they were considering a plan to send troops into the province if Bush’s plan failed.
First Saudi Arabia will send troops to protect the Sunnis, then Iran will follow to protect the Shiites, then all hell breaks out in the region just as liberals have predicted for months if not years.

Is this the plan to acquire the entire region's oil, as it did not make sense that Cheney was dividing up the oil fields of Saudi Arabia (along with Iraq's in 2001) if we had no possibility of getting them. Perhaps this was the plan all along.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida

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this is interesting

Though we would let Saudis to send their troops but never the Iranians... Well unless we leave completely. I would keep 20-30,000 troops to make sure Iranians do not enter the country.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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If the Saudis enter

the Iranians will pour over the border and we won't be abe to stop them. I don't think Iran will ask permission, and the Shiite-controlled Iraqi gov (including the actual gov of Sadr-like militias) will not help evict/support evicting them. Hence, we are in the middle of a regional war now that the buffer between the Sunnis and Shiites (Iraq) is shattered.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida

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What do you all think about The Justice Dept firing

US Attorneys around the country (link via TPM Muckraker) and replacing them with "interm" attourneys who

a) don't have to go through senate confirmation

b) have all been Republican operatives in the past

Digby covered it today and surprise surprise! Many of the Attourneys replaced were in the process of serving indictments to sitting Republican members of Congress.

I'm thinking we need to impeach both Dick & dubya. Otherwise, the next civil war we may be talking about will be right here in the good ole USA.

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I was planning

on writing up a story on it so we can debate all the issues surrounding it. For the Left, it pretty much symbolizes what's wrong with the Adminstration, so I'd love to get a more thorough discussion with the Right. Thanks for the links.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I think

you are thinking too much but mostly you read too much of the shrill lefty stuff that is screaming about unrealistic pipe dreams of the fringe. No one cares and there will be no impeaching or even revoking of any resolutions.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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This is somewhat serious,

especially out in California. The U.S. Attorney who was forced to resign was popular and effective - and so far the sole person not extremely baffled and angred by the decision is the Republican Rep who's been trying to get her fired for years. Apparently her only major crime was successfully prosecuting Duke Cunningham. Gonzales is using a loophole in the revised Patriot Act to keep Congress from being able to approve her replacement.

We're up to at least 7 U.S. Attorneys similiarly forced out of office. That's just the known ones.

Is this really the judicial system you want?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Write that article pico.

The DiFi video from this morning on the Senate floor was good but unexciting.

Answer us this Ender, Why? I haven't seen a reasonable answer yet as to why these people were being forced to resign. Some, as the San Diego Attourney, WAS in the begining stages of getting more (apparently primarily republicans) officials indicted in the Duke Cunningham ring. Do you think Duke was able to do all that by himself? favors were bought and sold. That's what representatives do. We just don't want any of our representatives selling their votes for money. I would think you would agree with that.

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Can Governers Interfere?

This is a subversion of due process.

Patrick Leah is on the case, but really this is bogus. What are they trying to hide and why?

This is really crossing the line. Hopefully Keith O. And Joe Scarboro will get a hold of this, and the rest of the so called "liberal" media, and it will soon be front page news.

Shocking. And these people preach democracy.

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Truly Frightening

that is what I think.

This goes beyond the pale, and is a clear subversion of justice.

Who can we get to impeach the attorney general???

Putting the corrupt in charge, to cover the asses of the corrupt.

Sounds like something Stalin/Cheney would do.

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