Thursday Open Thread

Debate wrap up: factcheck.org report here , poll summary here (consistent with other polls), sample conservative reaction here and liberal reaction here .

Congratulations to the Phillies, who defeated the Dodgers 4 games to 1 and move on to the World Series. Boston is down 3-1 to Tampa Bay.

A technical note: when writing comments or diaries that reference work by other people, please remember to quote only a few paragraphs, to make it clear which material is quoted, and to list and link the source. To be fair to the original authors, we may edit or simply delete posts that don't abide by these guidelines. I know that with the new system (thanks Ender!) people are still figuring out how everything works, so if anyone needs help with quoting or links please ask. Thanks. Open thread...

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But wait, there's more!

Third party candidates debate on Sunday. Looks like Nader, McKinney and maybe Baldwin are in. Barr? Not sure.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Now that might be worth watching

more entertaining and less scripted both. :)

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Barr

has prior engagements.

I think he's got a chip on his shoulder and doesn't think someone of his stature should have to share a stage with those three.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Is it just me?

or is there no Add Comment option to John's diary?

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Should be working now.

n/t

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I am looking at why this might be happening

hopefully fixed.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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The latest episode of Stupid

The latest episode of Stupid America and/or Stupid American Media is entitled "Joe the Plumber".

Geez, Louise. Do we really care that much about Joe's views, not just on taxes but on all sorts of issues about which he's being asked by the national media? Is there really something special about Joe? Does Joe even have a clue about anything, including whether or not his taxes would really go up under Obama's tax plan?

Yeesh!

edit: Oh and the media lose even more points for (in most cases I've seen) failing to distinguish between $250k of revenue vs. $250k of net income. Are journalists so devoid of basic business knowledge, not to mention common sense, that it doesn't occur to them to point out this distinction and provide clarity to people??

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Joe is a relative of Charles Keating

 of the Keating Five, through marriage. THE Charles Keating with ties to the other financial crises in Savings and Loans.

 The story is being intentionally shoved in your face, by old crooks, liars and cheaters.

 No wonder John McCain's talking points sound like they are about 20 years old.

 

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Two questions: 1) Why must

Two questions:

1) Why must hyperpartisans go way overboard when they could just present legitimate points? Who cares what relatives Joe had? And if you're implying some set-up -- some conspiracy through which Joe encountered Obama and presented those points/questions, well, on what basis? And if you're not implying anything like that, we're back to who the f-ck cares if he had some a**hole relative?

2) Why do I occasionally make an exception to my general policy of not bothering to replying to your comments? Do I have some hope that I'll introduce some degree of reasonableness to your future comments? Not much, if any. Do I have some hope that I'll influence other hyperpartisans (of both sides) or folks who might otherwise move into such a camp? A small bit of hope, I guess. Do I want to point out absurdity when I see it, particularly hyperpartisan absurdity (given the harm it does to America and the world), to vent? I guess that's part of it.

I probably won't reply to your reply to this comment, unless you surprise me by making sense and showing some degree of reasonable thinking.

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Someone who is getting national

 attention, and a national microphone, who is associated with Charles Keating of criminal banking scandal fame, whose name was brought up by John McCain on national television,  is something you may see as coincidence.

 Others may come to a different conclusion.

 The association with ex-banking criminals, at a time when our country is facing a global banking scandal, is worth noting especially in light of Joe's new found instant celebrity as an anti-tax non union, non liscensed, registered Republican related who is not meeting the threshold income of 250 thou/yr. 

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6 Degrees of seperation - you're probably related to CK someway.

.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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In fairness, missl

that article you cited doesn't explain what Joe's actual relation is to Keating.  It says he's a "close relative" of Keating's son-in-law, which isn't helpful.

I don't think this is a good argument to run with, for a number of reasons.  But I can give you a personal one: if you were to google my extremely uncommon last name, you'd likely find nothing but Republican donors.  Does that make you question my credentials? 

There are other reasons to be suspicious of Joe's claims (it'd be nice if Obama stressed the point that Joe was talking about a business raking in over a quarter of a million dollars), but I don't think this is a good one.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Wurzelbacher uncommon?

You're not from northwest Ohio.

We've got all kinds of crazy German last names with upwards of 10 letters in them:

Sanzenbacher
Biedenbacher

I could go on.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Are you responding to my comment?

Because that's not at all what I said.  :)

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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No, not really

I was just pointing out that where I come from, "odd" last names are a dime a dozen.

I forgot my :-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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One would think that the

One would think that the candidate who intended to use Joe in the debate (and to such a great extent) would have gotten his name right! 

 

Someone please tell me how to do embeds with the new format. Thanks.

Edit by stinerman: You have to use "plain text editing" to embed a video.  If Ender is against switching back to the old system, I'll try to edit the HTML guide this weekend and post a diary explaining all the changes we've seen after the switchover.

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Thanks, Stinerman (How do you

Thanks, Stinerman

(How do you prefer to be addressed here, "Stine", "Stinerman", other?)

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Whatever floats your boat

Stine, stinerman, Stiney, whatever.

No one is allowed to call me "Nate" or "Nathan" though.  That is reserved for family (pretty much the only people who know my first name).

Here's the full story on the matter.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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As long as nobody calls you

As long as nobody calls you "Francis"

 

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Heh

I'd have a fit over someone using double negatives like that.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Double negatives don't do no

Double negatives don't do no harm. (I hear you thinking, "Exactly.")

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Its the "Stiner Recliner"

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Ahh

The old days of high school wrestling.

Such good memories...such bad memories.  My shoulder still hurts every so often.  Usually during winter.  I wonder how yours is.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I'll show you 8

I can crack my right shoulder at will, my right elbow locks slightly up and I can crack by elbow then, my left knee gets soar if its mostly stationary in long car trips or if its cold and I'm stationary more often than moving...

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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A better argument

is Obama's response to S. J. W.'s questions in his driveway interview about how his tax plan works. But Obama's tax plan wasn't on morning TV. Joe was!

 It's kind of funny that it was just dumb luck this guy got to ask Obama questions,  and that John McCain latched onto him like glue.

 According to his '06 tax returns he earned 40 thou, just 210 thou short of magic number.

 

 It isn't that your name would link to Republican donors, which would be unsurprising, it is in this case it links to a particularly well known Republican donor, who has had shady ties with McCain in the past. Dumb luck indeed.

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Joe the Plumber

 The Wurzelbachers of Milfred, Ohio, Joe is a relative of Robert Wurzelbacher,  the son-in-law of Charles Keating. 

 The Joe whose vote would be disenfranchised if he was a new registrant and some typist accidently mis-spelled his name would be cleansed from the voter roles.

 The Joe that is not a licensed plumber, who does not make a quarter of a million dollars, whose taxes will not be raised.

 This whole story is kind of smelly. Smells like  Joe the Keating Five family GOP operative.

 The elder Wurzelbacher, Robert was the former senior vice president of the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. Of note is that even though McCain severed ties with his pal Keating, his wife Cindy, the rich beer heiress continued to have business relations with him.

 Oh that Joe the Plumber. 

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Here is

the link  with all the juicy details.

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Samuel Joe Wurzelbacher

is now the subject of a front page piece at the NYT

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Joe the Phony

 Not a licensed plumber.

Owes back taxes.

By the end of the day it'll probably be revealed that he's really the No. 3 guy at al Qaeda.

Joe's 15 minutes are up.

 

qui tacet consentire

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Great post by Adam

over at freedomdemocrats.org/node/3112 on a new article from Glenn Greenwald at Salon:

 

snip:

 

[T]he option of politically empowering Democrats is the opposite of a panacea.  The Democratic Party structure in Washington, and particularly its leadership in Congress, is more corrupted and destructive than anything else there is -- with the exception of the right-wing faction that has been running the country for the last eight years.   Contrary to the inane conventional Beltway wisdom that bipartisanship is oh-so-tragically scarce, Democrats as an entity have, over and over, passively acquiesced to, and frequently actively enabled and participated in, many of the worst abuses of the last eight years.   Their leadership in Congress is corrupt and craven to the bone in many of the same ways the GOP leadership has been -- and they're about to be far more entrenched and their power far less checked. 

Moreover, it's far from clear which version of Barack Obama will end up governing...

  If those who spent the last eight years vigorously opposing the radicalism, militarism, and anti-constitutional abuses of the Bush administration fail to oppose the Democratic leadership with equal fervor when they violate the same principles -- as they inevitably will -- then the humiliation of the Right and its removal from power will be emotionally satisfying, perfectly just, and a very mild improvement, but will ensure the continuation rather than the termination of most of the worst abuses of this government.

 

Studendously honest and accurate....and it will only look even more stupendously honest and accurate when we read it a few years from now.

 See FD link for further links.

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can't take much credit for that

I just cut out the part where pundits trash each other.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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well, I would have missed it

if you hadn't posted it. So, props tou you. :)

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No thanks. John Stossel

No thanks. John Stossel proved himself to be a special kind of jack*ass -- the kind who perpetuates a pervasive, pernicious myth while claiming to be exposing myths -- here:

The Tax-Cut Myth

Yes, the tax cuts stimulated the economy and increased tax revenues.
[skip] 
Let's give President Bush some credit for the falling deficit. Because of his tax cuts, tax revenue...is pouring into the government's coffers.

If Stossel, a supposed journalist supposedly focused on exposing myths and setting people straight, had bothered to check with, oh, say, economists on this matter, even conservative economists, even Bush's own economists, he would have found a strong consensus that the Bush tax cuts had had a net negative impact on revenues, and that revenues were up despite the Bush tax cuts, not even in part because of them.

Sorry, I just have zero respect for a so-called journalist who so sucks so much, and I can think of better ways to spend my time than to watch or read anything he generates.

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well, OK then

.

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I forgot to include this link

I forgot to include this link in my comment http://swordscrossed.org/node/1671 . It contains the kind of information Stossel might have found if he was a real journalist.

[edit below]

Oh, and coincidentally, one more for my file on The Myth That Just Won't Die http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/10/tax_rates_vs_tax_revenues.html . Morons.

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The Politics of Truth

Greenwald makes a very astute observation with respect to the Russia/Georgia conflict.  McCain charges that Russia attacked Georgia unprovoked when there is quite a bit of evidence that Georgia was trying to stir-up a hornets' nest.

Obama doesn't refute this assertion for reasons of political expediency, therefore the public accepts the assertion as fact because of the candidates' agreement on the issue.

I think this is because of the somewhat widely-held belief that if "opposites" like McCain and Obama agree on a particular narrative or set of assertions, those assertions must be true.  Of course, this is an example of the middle ground fallacy .

Why do people believe this way?  I'll rely on my standard argument of a two-party system perpetuating the myth that Democrats are politically opposite of Republicans.  Most political issues are measured in degrees, so there really is no opposite.  Just who is the political opposite of someone like Ben Nelson or Chris Shays? 

In a multi-party system we'd have a strong voice who would challenge conventional wisdom.  Obama won't do it because of the cost-benefit analysis of the situation.  His left flank is always covered because of our electoral system.  This failure to challenge conventional wisdom is bad for all of us, not just a particular political party or ideology.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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"overton window"

First, you've gotta see this cartoon:

Okay, anyway...

Nice analysis of how our system limits the range of discourse. I want to point out that what you describe isn't really a "fallacy of the middle ground"  since it this opinion covers the entire ground. In other words, it might be better described as a problem of a lack of imagination, or a lack of effort in seeking out alternative opinions, or just an unwillingness to think for yourself.

Also, I think it is worth nothing that  "middle ground" makes sense if we view these opinions as negotiating positions rather than issues of objective truth. In this case, each party states his ideal, and the practical negotiator finds some intermediate position that is agreeable to each party. Of course, even in this light, pure "middle ground" is lazy because the mutually agreeable space may be very strongly biased towards one end or the other. However, if both parties agree from the beginning, then there is nothing to discuss.

Finally, your comment is interesting because I've been thinking about how the Internet (and Swords Crossed, specifically) could function to expose people to a greater range of opinions, and thereby increase the range of proposals that are seen as reasonable by the general populations. I've been reading a lot of stuff by Democratic partisans about how the Republicans shifted the  "Overton window" such that previously radical ideas don't seem so radical...of course, the Republicans didn't invent this strategy.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Great cartoon

and a thoughful post.

 It disturbs me that Republicans honestly believe that Democrats are an illegitimate party, incapable of governing as Paul Krugman recently suggested.

If one gives Democrats any credit for anything they are immediately trashed as irrational, immoral depraved or other adjectives that have been used to describe democrats for years.

 I am furious that the McCain campaign's strategy to win is waving a bloody shirt and promoting racial division. It is way too easy to whip people into a frenzied lynch mob, and I am disgusted with their efforts to do so. Yet they go there.

 Screaming 'kill him' is unacceptable anytime, anywhere, yet some in the media dismiss this depravity by explaining, it's just a few on the fringe, without taking the extra step to be horrified and condemn such threats of violence.

It is NEVER okay to dismiss death threats against a Presidential candidate.

 As far as cross talk here, I think it doesn't really change peoples minds much but it certainly can give you a stronger position to argue from when you understand where the other side is coming from, if you are willing to do so. 

 

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the Economist recoginzes Georgia's failings

Oh yeah, the Economist has been pointing out how Georgia's President participated in the recent fiasco. I appreciate how they are willing to admit the failings of both sides in a conflict (whether Russia/Georgia or Israel/Palistine) but still come to a judgement who deserves our support or opposition (and in what way we should support/oppose them).

I also heard Counterspin discussing the how Georgia's President clamped down on press freedom, and how the mainstream media refrains from making a fuss even though they make a big fuss when someone like Chavez does the same thing.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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distance from others, distance from truth

I've recently read some claims (in the Black Swan) that the opinions of opinionmakers often are closer to those of other opinionmakers than they are to the truth. Leaving aside the issue of how the "truth" was determined, this is a plausible and scary assertion

The only justifiable explanation (that I can think of off the top of my head) is that humanity progresses towards the truth as a group. The depressing prospect is that social forces cause us to ignore data and theory that indicate that an alternative theory is just as plausible as our favored theory.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Just watched McCain speaking

Just watched McCain speaking at the Al Smith dinner. Very, very funny and good-natured. Obama is up now.

[edit] Obama was quite good, too.

Guys, catch the video on YouTube or CSpan.org (assuming it's going to be on there). Definitely worth it.

 

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Did they use

proper punctuation?

 

If not, I surely hope that you give them the gift of your response to their mindless ramblings.

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LOL. Could you make sense if

LOL. Could you make sense if I offered you one million dollars to do so? As for "mindless ramblings," if I had any, I'd have to return them to you by midnight.

FYI, people don't speak punctuation*.

* Well, Victor Borge did:

 

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Depending on your response

 to my response I will decide whether or not you are worthy of being graced with a reply from me. 

 

I control all things.

 

 

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I control all things. lol.

I control all things.

lol. From anyone else, I would assume that was intended as humor, but I wouldn't put any delusion past you.

Now get to work on that reality show in which you travel and live with Red Wing. That would be "Must See TV".

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Exhibit A

 in the concerted effort to dehumanize the left as illegitimate with the use of the word delusional.

 Of course it was humor..... 

 Your last comment is incredibly sexist and makes all kinds of absurd assumptions about my person hood and how you would like to control it for your own amusement.

 

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What makes people vote Republican?

What makes people vote Republican ?

An essay about moral opinions and how they translate into politics.

P.S. I love  "Edge"

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Sort of related

I think I've decided that if Nov 4th rolls around and the race continues to look as it does  now (i.e. democrat blow out) I'll vote for Gordon Smith (R-OR) for senate.

 

I won't vote for McCain but I don't like one party rule, it's too likely to lead to abuse (witness most of the last 8 years).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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for balance?

Sounds like you want the Dems to win, but not by too much.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Essentially

I don;t think the dems having a lock on two out of three branches of government (and about half of the remaining one) is a particularly good thing for anyone (including them).  Too much temptation to abuse the power.  Again, witness the spectacular descent of the republicans in a similar situation.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Isn't this a fairly

normal cycle? Isn't there quite a bit of historic precedent for this sort of thing.

 I take heart that Obama will be  more pragmatic than left. Note that Obama was a disappointment to the hard left as the head of the Harvard Law Review.

 After all the decades of right handed rule I welcome the change. In fact I am ecstatic about the possibility of things tilting back to the other side and see it as necessary to get back some semblance of balance.

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Seems pretty extreme to me

As things sand right now Obama is poised to have a complete blowout in terms of EVs (~350) and a heavy mandate in terms of popular vote (~55%).  Consider that in 2000 Bush won 271 EVs and lost the popular vote with 47.9%.

 

Now the race may tighten up, but as it stands right now not only will Obama sweep easily into the white house but the demsa are going to expand both house and senate majorities, possibly to filibuster and even veto proof levels (not that they are likely to need veto proofing).  That's pretty unusual.  Usually one party does not control both the presidency and both chambers of congress.  Of course the republicans did for a while in Bush's erm but that was pretty extraordinary.

 

In fact if you look here: uspolitics.about.com/od/usgovernment/l/bl_party_division_2.htm

you can see which years one party has had control of all three.  Out of 32 two-year periods, 12 had one party control, but over half of those are from 1967 and before.  Politics has realigned since then with the reagan revolution.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Seasteading

Patri Friedman , Executive Director of the Seasteading Institute, talks with EconTalk host Russ Roberts about seasteading, the creation of autonomous ocean communities as an alternative to existing political and cultural forms. Topics discussed include the political and economic viability of seasteading, risks of piracy, the aesthetics of living on the ocean, and the potential impact of seasteading on conventional governments.

Here is the article .

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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In the same vein

See Sealand .

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Ender

WRT the text editor-

I like the idea of having buttons to use but this specific one doesn;t seem to work all that well.  For instance I tried to write a diary earlier and gave up because the formatting ended up being too much of a pain.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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