Monday Open Thread
Hopefully the birth certificate gibberish gets put to rest today.
Obama, doing his best McCain impression, says the pork stops here . In tangentially related news, Ireland wants help tracking down tainted pork
.
The third state to do so, Montana now allows doctor assisted suicide .
In pop culture news, Bear Grylls was injured and airlifted out of Antarctica. It is not known how serious his shoulder injury is.
In sports, the Steelers stun the Cowboys with touchdowns 24 seconds apart in the 4th quarter to win.
Submitted by Specter on Mon, 2008-12-08 09:48
Tags:

Comments :
It's worth repeating
again, again and again
.
Will it matter in the long run? Probably not. And that is most unfortunate.
Come back and fight, you coward!
It is a bit interesting that the freemarketers argue that the cure for our problem is more of the same. Derrida noted that the greek word 'pharmakon' (from which we get our word pharmacy) means both 'medicine' and 'poison.' Fairly accurate here.
I would be more for letting the markets play this one out if it did not mean that a substantial number of people not directly involved in these crappy business practices and decisions would lose their pensions, insurance, and jobs or if it would not entirely cripple our economy. I'm not ready to make that gamble just to see if it works.
*Just to give you another example (since we have a minor sports thread in this post): In the early days of football, after the thousandth concussion, they did not say, "Hey, our shoddy leather helmets are the problem. Let's get rid of those to solve the problem and weed out the weak." They rightly created new rules and increased protection to make a more exciting (and safer) game.
*My apologies to Tlaloc for the sports metaphor.
Here is another example for the people who do not like sports:
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Interesting wording, Specter
Not sure how you get that conclusion.
I guess it is where you put the emphasis
Is it with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and the Community Reinvestment Act? Or is it with those who allowed these bad loans to be reprossessed over and over as securities
which were then borrowed on again (and repeat) after bank deregulation allowed these practices?
I go with the latter.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
it's with everything
Okay, I'm not quite clear on the context of this discussion, but my impression is that we have this problem rot pervades our economic system. It's a house of cards, and most regulations just create a little more stability at one part of the structure, and ecourage people to build the structure even higher. The structure needs to have several layers taken off of it -- and people need to learn their lesson and stop rebuilding those layers. As long as we rush stabilize the shaky foundation and build an extra layer, people won't recognize that they are doing the same damn thing again and again ("no, this is a different layer")
To make another analogy, there is a common practise in mathematics/statistics to treat a term in an equation as "approximately zero"--this eliminates the term from consideration and makes the calculations easier (otherwise they can be impossibly complicated). This is fine as long as you are only making one or two of these approximations, but when they get piled on top of each other, the equations become less and less accurate.
Much of our economic system seems to work on the same assumption -- assuming that certain risks are "approximately zero", so we build relationships on top of relationships, institutions on top of institutions, with a immense numbers of dependencies and we assume that the risk of failure for any one of those dependencies is "approximately zero" -- but only one of them has to fail to cause the entire structure to collapse.
So maybe your preferred regulations can reduce the risk that a particular dependency will fail (from one in a million to one in ten-million), but people will act as though the risk were completely eliminated...and make the same damned mistake of creating too many dependencies.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
I appreciate
the abstract math lesson, but can you give me some concrete details about how further deregulation will help this situation? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your position, but by 'taking structures out' do you mean deregulation?
I see the deregulation
via the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act
which allowed bank consolidation (and therefore combining insurance and securities companies) through the repeal of major parts of the Glass-Steagall Act
(which would have prevented such mergers and the securities and lending practices between them) to be the problem.
Now tell me how not having these protections in place would prevent this from happening again?
Sorry about my tone, but it seems people are making this out to be a lot more difficult (and abstract) than it has to be.
If I (mortgage company) am forced/encouraged to loan (under the CRA--which is arguably not the case
in many of these instances anyway) to high risk recipients (at artificially low rates), it does not make sense for me to sell and borrow on these high-risk loans (to multiple times what the actual loans are worth--this is the deregulation part). Why would I act surprised when it all collapses.
Here's an example: Let's say my next door neighbor is unemployed. If I give him a loan of say $100, I should not take this shady loan and use it as collatoral to make further loans to myself and resell it until my personal debt is $10,000 based on the $100
bad loan to my neighbor. When people come to collect on my $10,000 loan, I cannot then say my neighbor is at fault. That is exactly what happened here, and John (and other free marketers) are trying to place the blame solely on the neighbor rather than say perhaps the unrestricted loaning and borrowing on securities is also (and in all respects more so) at fault. Yes, a default on a $100 loan is bad, but increasing the worth of the bad loan to many times the amount of the bad loan is simply stupid and dangerous
(for some reason, you have to use the digg link
to access the full version of this last article-sorry).
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
the layers are in our economic institutions
by "layers", I am referring to much of the US economic system -- both the financial dependencies between firms/households and the material dependencies between firms/households. For an example of the "layers", consider what is involved in putting food on my table: the grocery store, the delivery trucks, the food processing plant, the farmer, the fertilizer (ammonium) producer, the petroleum company, etc. Likewise, from a financial perspective, I may get a paycheck from a firm, which has a line of credit at a bank, which is based upon expected revenues, which depends upon customers getting a line of credit, which somehow has to be connected to people who have excess money to lend (and itself involves several middle-men).
I'm not taking sides in this regulation/deregulation debate, because I don't think that any of it will make much difference in the absence of a radical restructuring of the American economic system --including the structure of banks and money, and possibly even property laws.
In a world of angels, everybody would make sure that they aren't the weak link, but real people will inevitably make mistakes whether due to ignorance or averice. In a real world with real, falible people, it is foolish to allow your livlihood to depend upon thousands of people behaving perfectly.
Regulations seek to make sure that every link in the chain is strong (i.e. that no individual is at risk of failing and setting off a cascade of failure). That demand is impossible to meet.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
I understand and respect your point
I am actually in agreement with the majority of what you state.
My disagreement is more with the article John linked. Yes, we need to hold these companies accountable, but I just don't like the absolution of responsibility by the deregulators.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Though,
I am not a big fan of bailouts either, especially with stories like this
.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
a lot of BS
Since I jumped in without reading that article, I'll try to placate Specter by providing a little response. Basically, I think it's a lot of BS:
Sure, Freddie and Fannie were/are screwed up, but their debt is secure, and is not the basis of the financial meltdown. F&F helped shape the market, but they did not encourage anyone (except the Federal gov't) to take on more risk than they would have otherwise.
Again, this could have cut into the profit margin of banks a little bit (and these banks had plenty of profit over the past decade), but it did not cause them to take on so much risk that they were faced with failure. At worst, the banks could have hedged against their exposure using their surplus--but they decided to hand out that surplus as dividends.
Blah, blah, blah. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time, there was no indication of inflation (outside of asset prices), so there was no reason to raise the rates.
...
No man is an island. The market connects us to each other. Individual accountability is partial at best, unless we decide to sever those connections and strive for economic self-sufficiency. When we place our faith in "the system" (which could be "the market"), we have abandoned individual responsibility.
Wishful thinking.
Anyway, I don't think this is seen as the end of free markets -- the intervention packages are being framed in typical neo-liberal terminology (public goods, and emergency system stabilization), which has been the dominant ideology of government for decades (before which it was more socialistic):
There is nothing new in this quote from that Hong Kong guy quoted in the article
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
Impressive
My ability to express economics' jargon is subpar, so I appreciate your analysis and input.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Steelers and Carolina Panthers will play in Super Bowl XLIII
You heard it here first.
I survived the Bush Administration
no way
...
Bookmark my prediction... .you'll see
.
I survived the Bush Administration
I disagree with you,
but, as evinced by your political picks, I would never bet against you.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
After next weekend, you won't disagree with me anymore
After Pittsburgh defeats Tennessee and Carolina summarily thumps the Giants (a team apparently in serious disarray since Burress' "plaxident").
Pittsburgh and Carolina will be the combatants in Super Bowl XVIII.
You could use this information to make yourself wealthier, but you choose not to believe me. ;-)
Your loss.
I survived the Bush Administration
In DeAngelo Williams We Trust
Carolina might need to contact some of Rae Carruth's friends to help knock off the competition.
A team from the NFC East will win the NFC.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Best answer yet concerning "birth certificate" thing...
From an "elector" in North Carolina who was being pestered by right wing nutjobs:
http://www.democratic-disaster.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=0l3tnhh9jv8gu7itb8fn09v0v5&topic=1584.msg5821#msg5821
It is a fantastic read..... but here's the money quote:
I survived the Bush Administration
No Case
The Supreme Court will not hear the 'Natural-Born Citizen' challenge
to Obama's presidency. Rightly so.
Now can we move on?
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Ah yes; the return of the VRWC
The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy -- having broken up eight years ago -- is putting the band back together and going out on tour. They're back with all the nuttiness and over-the-top lunacy we've all come to love and admire.
But will they come out with some fresh songs or just be content to put out a Greatest Hits CD and recycle old conspiracies?
Of course, it's going to hard to top those chart-busting hits from the 90s -- like "Clinton's Dealing Drugs from the Mena Airport," and "Vince Foster Was Murdered."
qui tacet consentire
What happened
to all the black helicopters during Bush's presidency? You'd think they'd have trouble finding enough space to park them at the U.N.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
they have some prominent folk on that birth-certif thing
Apparently one of the people filing suit is a former Deputy Attorney General here in PA. I saw him on a call-in show last night, and he was being absolutely ridiculous.
He even claimed that Kenya has Obama's real birth certificate and would be able to blackmail him with the threat of releasing it ... as if the legitimacy of the American president could be destroyed by the say-so of a foreign government!
I didn't hear them say anything about the fact that Obama's mother is American.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
And of course Justice Thomas
who initially seemed to think the challenge had merit.
Thing is, even if Obama were born in Kenya, it might not matter. From the Immigration and Naturalization Act
:
Not sure what law would have applied at the moment of Obama's birth, but we do know that he was at least born to one parent who was a US Citizen at the time and who had lived in the US for at least 5 years.
Following the link, I have no idea what a "vault" birth certificate is. Anyone have any idea?
Dunno
The original on file, maybe?
I bet if Obama had been born in Kenya it would have mattered to some voters, whatever the legalities are.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
The bastion
of '80s home-made porn is dead. Long live Polaroid film
!
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Quick!
Give 'em a bailout! What about all those displaced instant-film workers? Who cares if their product has been upstaged by newer models that are easier and cheaper to use....it's an American Icon we're talking about here!
Yes, dammit, it's humor. Smile. Despite the gloom and doom in the media, it's still a great time to be alive.
Dangers of Bushspeak
good article
.
A liberal atheist demands respect
A different article by the same author
One of the things that ran through my mind after seeing the attacks was "That was stupid of that group, they're going to get crushed [short pause], maybe that's what they want." What better way to start a war between India and Pakistan and have India "start it" than have the black hand of Pakistani's provoke India into throwing haymakers.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Pretty good, except for the part about the French Revolution
If the French Revolution introduced free speech it wasn't a very flatering introduction.
The key moments of any freedom
are *always* unflattering. Nobody objects to freedom of speech when talking about widely loved and respected works of art. It's when the speech is tawdry or inflammatory that the freedomis tested.
Ernesto Miranda was a thief and a rapist. Jose Padilla was a wannabe murderer. Freedoms are tested when we don;t really want to sustain them and the question is if we will stand by our convictions or let ourselves recoil from the nauseating repercussions.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
free speech didn't last long in france: ask Thomas Paine
I think he's referring to the fact that free speech died fairly quickly during the French Revolution.
For instance, Thomas Paine was arrested and faced execution in 1793 because of his political opinions.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.