Thursday Open Thread

Around the world, fissures keep appearing in the Iraq stability.  The latest bombing killed 55 at a restaurant.  Britain gives a timeline for an Iraq withdrawal .

A charity in Pakistan is tied to a terrorist group , and tensions continue to rise between Pakistan and India in the wake of the Mumbai attacks.

In the U.S., the Blagojevich soap opera now turns to his wife.  The Chicago factory workers win their sit-in

In science and tech news, coarl reefs, home to some of the largest concentrations of diversity, are disappearing .  Your dog understands fairness , so quit cheating on him/her.  Microsoft continues to hype the Windows 7 OS .

In sports and entertainment, Rolling Stone rolls out the top albums of 2008 .  I hardly know any of them.  I'm getting old.  Any bets on the BCS title game ?  I take the Gators.

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Having two dogs

 I always make a point to give one a treat and then the other. I don't want a doggie uprising in my household.

 The boy geniuses of the economy, last week squawking that we are suffering from deflation seem to have missed something. The dollar is now weakening, the price of gold is rising, as is oil, and the return a US treasury bills is Zero!! 

 These same geniuses are insisting that the answer to the world's economic woes is lower interest rates, forgetting that cheap credit caused this meltdown in the first place. They write papers about it, insisting that China must lower it's interest rates. If you are too clever by half, you can use US dollars to buy the Yen, and use your Yen to borrow equity, to invest in emerging markets and pretend like you are rich and know what you are talking about.

 "Let's re-inflate the bubble". Ack!

 I suggest that the real front line of the world wide battles being waged is economic. We are in the battle of the banks. It is economic warfare. He who has the biggest bank wins.

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My dog

will always chew something insignificant up in the house if we leave and I haven't taken her for a walk. 

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida

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Gators is and should be favored

The Big 12 didn't play to much defense this year, and I don't see the Sooners dropping passes only to get lucky and have the bounce to a WR farther down field.

Florida has been killing teams all year, except a decent Ole Miss team.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I could care less about who should win

I bet on who I want to win.

I hate Oklahoma, but I despise Florida.  Tim Tebow has to be the most overrated QB in college football history.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Tim Tebow has to be the most

Tim Tebow has to be the most overrated QB in college football history.

It seems that the two main ESPN scouts don't like Tebow either.

McShay thinks Teebow will be developmental prospect due to his poor accuracy and slow deliver.

Kiper thinks Tebow is a poor prospect at QB, but may go high if he can catch as and play as an HB.

 

And you're forgetting about Jason White, Mr. Thrower of 5 yard stop routes that go for 70 yard TDs.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Another 'Best of 2008'

but this one is at least amusing.  Best viral videos of 2008 montage--h/t to boing boing :

 

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida

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Union Busters Thrilled

  Senator Shelby, and Larry Kudlow, dancing in the streets. We screwed the unions......., hooray!

  Everywhere you look it just doesn't feel like Christmas or America.

  Unbelievable.

 

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I'm not a union buster, but answer the following questions hones

Which automakers are perceived as making better cars?

1. Automakers using UAW labor

2. Automakers using non-union labor

 

Which automakers are still making profits rather than asking for bailouts?

1. Automakers using UAW labor

2. Automakers using non-union labor

 

Which is the more accurate statement about the contracts the UAW negotiates?

1. They are solid gold-- once wages, benefits, and job security provisions are negotiated by the UAW, workers can count on those terms for the lifetime of the contract

2. They aren't worth the paper they are printed on; the UAW has had to give concessions on these contracts in the past and will do so again in the future-- the very near future, in fact.

 

Which auto plants are safer?

1. UAW shops

2. Non-union shops

3. Probably about the same

 

Which person is more likely to be sweating bullets over their job security this holiday season?

1. A UAW worker

2. A worker for a non-union auto company

 

Do you think that workers at non-union auto companies are treated poorly?

1. Yes

2. No

 

When there's been a UAW strike or a threatened strike in the past, what has usually been the primary issue of contention?

1. Wages and benefits

2. Worker safety or other concerns not related to compensation

 

Which statement more accurately describes the last round of UAW contracts?

1. The union sacrificed the benefits of the current rank and file in order to ensure a sustainable compensation regime for the next generation of union auto workers

2.  The union sold out the next generation of auto workers while seeking to preserve as much of the wages and benefits of the current workers as possible

 

For the next generation of union auto workers, the current contracts negotiated by the unions:

1. Offer great advantage over the typical compensation of workers in similar positions at non-union factories

2. Offer increasingly little advantage over the typical compensation of workers in similar positions at non-union factories

 

I think if you answer these questions honestly, you'll have to agree with me that the UAW simply is not providing much benefit for autoworkers these days, and isn't that the name of the game for unions?  I say good riddance to the UAW-- they have failed their membership, and particularly their younger membership and future membership.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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That seems a bit unfair

The UAW has offered and continues to offer concessions to help the automakers control expenses, including limiting future benefits. You seem to read this as the UAW screwing over young and future members, but isn't that the only ethical (and maybe even legal) option available for the UAW? It would not be fair to renege on promises made to current senior workers or retirees, so if the union is determined to sacrifice to help keep the companies afloat, they have to trim compensation going forward. This seems more fair anyway, since the young workers and future workers will know going in what they will give and what they will get, and if they don't like the terms they don't have to take the job -- an option not available if terms are renegotiated retroactively. What would you have the UAW do, really? 

Many of your questions seem to me to dodge the issue of legacy costs, which in a way reflect past success of these companies, success that led to profits that have already been banked by stockholders and management but were supposed to be partially diverted to cover retirees. 

There is also the issue that the questionable decisions to push gas guzzlers came from the top, not from the unions, and so while the UAW may have to tighten their belt as a result of management blunders they aren't responsible for the contribution of these mistakes to the current problems facing the companies.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Nice list

(picking your post, Brendan, just because it fits here better, but this is really a general response)

 . . . .they aren't responsible for the contribution of these mistakes to the current problems facing the companies.

OK, so, are you saying that unions only function well when the companies are excellently run?   In other words, the UAW cannot help the workers now, because the UAW is powerless and unaccountable for management decisions?  if I were an auto worker, I would wonder what my union was good for, then.   Would ten years of a higher-salary job be better for me than 20 or 30 at a slightly lower?  Would it be better to take my chances with the employer's actions with or without the union being there "for me"?

I think Skymutt's list is a great start at objectively and unemotionally looking at the UAW and whether or not, in the decades of its existence, it has actually helped or hurt the employees it claims to represent. 

An argument can be made that it did indeed help the current crop of workers make relatively higher salaries and secure better benefits.   However, if it has contributed in any way to the current crisis these companies are experiencing, then is has also hurt the current workers.   

I'm not saying the UAW is entirely to blame.   But they are not entirely blameless, either. 

And yes, when the money is not there (unlike the government, which seems to think it has an inexhaustible supply) "unfair" decisions do have to be made to keep a company functioning in a changing environment.    If I can't make payroll (whether due to causes within or outside my control), no matter how "unfair" it is, I have to fire my employees, regardless of how hard they worked, or how good they are, or whatever.

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Well... yeah, right?

I mean there's limited utility in having a strong union if the company is screwed. "Excellently run" is probably too high a standard but basic competence seems like a prerequisite to getting anything out of a long-term compensation agreement.

if I were an auto worker, I would wonder what my union was good for, then.   Would ten years of a higher-salary job be better for me than 20 or 30 at a slightly lower?  

The implicit assumption in your question here seems to be that ten years of a higher-salary job would preclude 20 or 30 at a slightly lower. In the case of the automakers, this does not appear to me to apply; had the companies been properly managed, much of the present crisis could have been averted, and some of the rest of the legacy drag is simply inevitable. Certainly one could argue that the UAW should have been content with less, but one could make that same argument for any level of compensation; absent a comparison to the costs of the undisputed bad business practices I'm not sure how relevant it is.

Would it be better to take my chances with the employer's actions with or without the union being there "for me"?

It seems self-evident to me that the answer is "with", since to the extent that harm from your employer's actions can be mitigated a union will have greater leverage than an individual worker. But there's only so much a union can (probably also should) do to control the direction of a company. What a union can and should do is protect the rights and interests of the workers, and that can be done within both a good or bad company with the obvious limitation that a worker isn't going to get much out of a bad company regardless. The only reason I'd say "without" would be if the union were contributing to the bad business decisions.

And yes, when the money is not there (unlike the government, which seems to think it has an inexhaustible supply) "unfair" decisions do have to be made to keep a company functioning in a changing environment.

Right, so it's a question of being as fair as possible with limited resources. I don't see how denying retirees benefits they already earned could be more fair than limiting compensation to new workers, that's all I'm saying.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Spreading the pain as equally as possible is what is most fair

The UAW has offered and continues to offer concessions to help the automakers control expenses, including limiting future benefits. You seem to read this as the UAW screwing over young and future members, but isn't that the only ethical (and maybe even legal) option available for the UAW?

Not at all.  A "concession" is precisely a "renege" on a previous "promise", if you want to look at it that way.   Unions can and do make concessions regarding retiree benefits and older workers all the time.  It is no more ethical to screw young and future workers at the expense of older workers as it would be to screw older workers and retirees at the expense of future workers.  In my view, the most ethical way of dealing with tough times like this is to try to spread the pain equally over all union members.  And then when times get better (as they hopefully will) and the union can negotiate a more favorable contract, everybody should benefit. 

If I was in a union, I would not want my union protecting my wages and benefits at the expense of future workers.  That does not appeal to my sense of fairness, even given that the new workers would "know what they are getting into".  If a unions can't negotiate advantages for labor that can be sustained for the next generation, then that union is useless and should dissolve itself.  If a union is going to protect some workers wages and benefits and not others, then it shouldn't be allowed to charge dues from the workers it is not serving.

Many of your questions seem to me to dodge the issue of legacy costs, which in a way reflect past success of these companies, success that led to profits that have already been banked by stockholders and management but were supposed to be partially diverted to cover retirees.

It's just the opposite-- I'm saying that in this crisis the union needs to put these legacy costs on the table-- you're the one saying that are protecting these legacy costs as sacred "promises" that must be kept at any cost.  I think it's an open question whether these legacy costs represent the "past successes" of these companies, or a crushing burden which had been pushed into the future and now the chickens are coming home to roost.

There is also the issue that the questionable decisions to push gas guzzlers came from the top, not from the unions, and so while the UAW may have to tighten their belt as a result of management blunders they aren't responsible for the contribution of these mistakes to the current problems facing the companies.

I don't know what to say to this, except that when you go to work for any company, your fortunes are tied, for better or worse, to the wisdom or stupidity of management.  Tell me how it can be any other way?  Tell me how we can possibly create a system where we can insulate a worker, be they union or non-union, from the long term consequences of poor management.

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Lots of misinformation here

 Ask yourself why Richard Shelby's home state used tax payer dollars to subsidize the auto industry. 

Ask yourself why Toyota workers, whose sales are coincidentally falling, are being paid $30 an hour while the UAW is being forced to accept a wage fixed by the GOP.

Ask yourself why Volkswagen just got a $500 million tax subsidy from the US for its American plant.

Ask yourself how many Americans are covered for retirement benefits under UAW.

  I furiously  and fundamentally disagree with you here. 

Wouldn't it be just great if labor would work for less. Great! Let Toyota workers work for $28 an hour, which would be LESS than they are getting now.

Labor deserves a spokesman to lobby for workers rights, and they individually pay dues to have a spokesman. 

 

 

 

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I will answer your questions

Even though you didn't answer mine, but instead claimed "misinformation" without pointing out one shred of it...

Ask yourself why Richard Shelby's home state used tax payer dollars to subsidize the auto industry.

States give companies tax incentives to locate plants there in order to increas job opportunities in their state.  There's nothing wrong with this, and the domestic automakers take advantage of the same kind of breaks

Ask yourself why Toyota workers, whose sales are coincidentally falling, are being paid $30 an hour while the UAW is being forced to accept a wage fixed by the GOP.

Because Toyota is a well run company that knows it is well-served to take care of its workers in tough economic times and doesn't need a labor union to tell it to do so.

Ask yourself why Volkswagen just got a $500 million tax subsidy from the US for its American plant.

Because they can.  Because any politician would want to take credit for getting those jobs in their district, and Ford, GM, or Chrysler would be able to get the same kind of tax breaks if they were planning a new plant of similar size.  Because when you win a plant of that size, it generates all kinds of satellite business in the area of the plant. 

The subsidy for VW was provided by Tennessee, not by the US governmnent, by the way.  So again, we are talking about state and/or local government competing for industry, which happens all the time, and Michigan and every other state take part in this competition to attract business investment in their state.

Ask yourself how many Americans are covered for retirement benefits under UAW.

This is a tough questions to answer.  If I was a UAW retiree, I wouldn't be feeling very "covered" right now.  I'd be wondering whether I was going to be losing my coverage in the very near future.

Wouldn't it be just great if labor would work for less. Great! Let Toyota workers work for $28 an hour, which would be LESS than they are getting now.

I know it's tough work-- tougher than mine for sure-- but then again I don't make $28/hour either.

Labor deserves a spokesman to lobby for workers rights, and they individually pay dues to have a spokesman.

Workers "individually" pay dues?  That's one way of putting it.  Another way of putting is that if you want to work in a union shop, you HAVE to pay union dues.

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I know I glossed over

some points in my answer. (as usual)

 Appreciate the thoughtful reply :) 

 I still just fundamentally disagree.

 The labor movement has not been perfect, yet you have to remember that the reason it exists is because of rank abuse by corporate task masters. I see  it as imperfect, yet necessary check and balance against the huge advantages that global corporations have and the human tendency to squeeze as much as you can out of people you have 'over  a barrel'.

  Reality says the rich and powerful  always have an advantage and access to power or the infamous  pay to play and rewrite the rules. I don't see anything wrong with individual workers joining a club, that allows them to have more lobbying power to balance things out. 

___As an aside

 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/us/13smithfield.html?hp

Smithfield Justice for Hog Killing Plant Workers

 We forget that some jobs that need to be done are very unglamorus.  

 Workers at Smithfield were treated very very badly. They fought hard for 15 years and just won a vote to unionize in North Carolina, a strongly anti-union state!That's pretty huge and a good sign that the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice.

 

 

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Isn't that like asking

which shoe manufacturers make the most profit, those employing third world sweat shops or those that don't?

Of course you can get great economics by treating workers as slaves, but that doesn't make it right.  And the answer is certainly not to reduce the workers treated well.

Unions absolutely have their problems but workers, and for that matter everyone else, are a damn sight better off for having them to counterbalance the corporate power sturctures since government generally won't.

 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Do the non-union automakers treat their workers like slaves?

If so, make your case that non-union automakers treat their American workers like "slaves".  If not, this is just straw.  Granted that I know that they push their workers hard, but the pay is very good for a job that doesn't require a college education. 

Unions can be a counterbalance to "corporate power structures", and they also can be just another "power structure" in themselves.  All I know is, UAW workers aren't a damn sight better off today than their non-union countereparts, and I don't see the union leadership stepping down.

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Not really

The point remains the same either way- you have workers treated better and workers treated worse. Of course a company that treats workers better is at a competitive disadvantage, but that ideology does indeed lead to sweat shops and slavery.  If the big three lower standards to match those of southern car manufacturers and the southern companies will suddenly "have" to lower compensation to remain competitive, and so on in the race to the bottom.

 

The move should be to treating workers better, not worse.  Raise the treatment of workers in bad areas, instead of lowering everyone else to match the worst offenders.

 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Cheney says of failed Auto bailout: "It's Herbert Hoover Time"

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16515.html

Looks like somebody is a little worried about their legacy.

In their zeal to bust the UAW, the GOP is pushing us over a cliff into Great Depression II.

Unless Bush taps the TARP to bailout the Big 3, historians will consider this to be worse for Bush's legacy than Katrina.

The GOP would be shut out of every state east of the Mississippi and north of the Mason-Dixon line for decades.

They are about to recreate the Democratic dominance of 1932 to 1952.

They're willing to plunge the economy into a depression - just to bust up a union.    Hope your happy with your prize, GOP....   Good luck with your 401Ks.

 

 

I survived the Bush Administration

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Considering that historians

Considering that historians range from left, lefter, and leftist, we're allready kind of screwed in that department.

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I disagree......

Historians are generally looking on Ronald Reagan very favorably nowadays.

If you asked a historian in 1953 what Truman's legacy would be, it wouldn't have been a pretty picture.

Modern historians, however, paint Truman in a very good light.

If you asked about Reagan in 1991 as we were heading into a recession, it wouldn't have looked so good for the gipper.

Nowadays, he has a high rating from historians.

Bush's legacy was THOUGHT to be attached to how Iraq and the middle east looks in 20 years.  Now, it's tied to the economy.

If this is a 18-month-or-so recession, history will judge Bush on Iraq and terrorism mostly.

If this plunges into Great Depression II....   the Iraq angle will be a minor paragraph.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

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Text of internal GOP email on the bailout bill

Subject: "Action Alert: Auto Bailout"

Date: December 10, 2008 at 9:12 AM

Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Colburn and Demit will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:

1) This is the Democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor instead of taking their first blow from it.

2) This rush to judgment is the same that happened with the TARP. Members do not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.

The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press the better.

Please contact me if you need additional information. Again the hardest thing for the Democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans we can beat this.

 

The source of this is UAW President Ron Gettledinger.

If this email is authentic, it means that the GOP's goal here is to bust up the UAW.   They are blaming the failure of the Big Three on the least culpable part of the problem:  the workers.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

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I am spitting mad about this

It's all about busting workers rights, and collective bargaining power . 

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I wonder how much wages of non-labor jobs will go down...

And a good number of distinguished Congressman from states with foreign car manufacturing plants are opposed to the bailout for purely Patriotic reasons. Not because the failure of the Big 3 would help out the people that funded their campaign.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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