Monday/Tuesday Open Thread

Its the first Monday of the new year!  Time to really get to work on those resolutions!

Gov. Bill Richardson, President-elect Obama's pick to be Secretary of Energy, has withdrawn his name from consideration due to a federal investigation into one of his campaign donors.  Richardson maintains that his dealings were above board with the donor and that he is withdrawing his name in order to make sure President-elect Obama's agenda goes forward without a hitch.

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Our new Congress

 will hold hearings about the how, what, why and when relating to the Bernie Madoff scam that destroyed wealth for charities, individual investors, and banks around the world.

 I look forward to their findings........ since I have pegged this as the 'Story of the Year'.

 When the rich get ripped off  on such a large scale one can only hope that something will be done to rectify the damage. After all what will those trendy folks do, if they can't break their arms patting themselves on the back for donating to charity or make the payment on their yacht!  :-)

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I'll be interested in the investigation as well

However, I'm not too keen on any sort of remuneration for Mr. Madoff's clients.  My away message for the last few weeks on my AIM client has been

"What part of 'Not FDIC insured' don't you understand?"

That pretty much sums up my opinion of the entire bailout business.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Yeah what he said ;)

 These private investors thought something was shady, only just the illegal insider trading, a law which they were happy to have Madoff break for their own self interest! They thought they were clever to invest with a fellow that was circumventing regulations, now they want the law to bail them out! No way.

 The hearings will be on CSPAN this evening! Great TV!

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I bet you believe...

...there is an AFB in the Nevada desert where we keep the aliens.

...we never really walked on the moon, it was filmed in an TV studio in Houston.

...911 was an inside job.

I've never seen, in all my travels throughout the blogosphere, a person with quite the same level of contempt, and conspiratorial emphasis, as you are able to consistently produce.

And yet all the while, finding so little - if any, trespass or accountability with the obverse.

Quite amazing.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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This relates to a Ponzi scheme

perpetrated by Bernard Madoff how.....? 

 

 

 

 

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Well, you blame Madoff...

..okay, fine.

..but are evidently just hardwired to not simply leave it at that. With you, it all always must have a deeper duplicity. It has to be the investors themselves that are tainted in this case. You accuse them of virtually being in on it?

We have friends of my parents who lost dough investing with Madofff's company, let me tell you they hardly were colluding to make inside trades, or had any idea they were involved in anything other than an investment like the millions of other hard working Americans who make investments with fund managers every year.

It just never ceases to amaze; your insatiable need to find connivance and machination in EVERYTHING.


Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Wide spread scam

 stating how many folks, and which foreign  banks and investors got scammed,  is an insatiable need to find connivance......? Whatever.

Or you could say I am just stating the facts of the case. One of them is your friends got screwed, through no fault of their own. They trusted an investor who trusted Bernie and got burned.

 As stated previously folks thought Madoff was just engaging in (illegal) insider trading, and were fine with that for the sake of self interest. I guess Bernie's self interest was greater than their own.

 

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Can I ask you a question?

Seriously now.

Why government?

You, for whatever reason, seem perfectly willing to put your full assurances in government, a government made up of people, and you expect them to invoke some mythical social attributes, the very same attributes you regularly assert people themselves do not possess.

Why? Has it really done a quality job in the areas we have allowed it to encroach thus far;

Welfare? (F)

Education? (D-)

SS? (D)

Fiscal Responsibility? (D)

...not so much.

On the other hand, even with the dilemma of the unconstitutional burdens it must bear, the government has been very good at it's primary purposes;

Military/Protect America (B+)

Law and Order (B)

Maintain trade with foreign partners (B)

etc.

You see, the bottom line is this, governments are good at the business of governing, not so good at social engineering.

In short Miss L, the larger a central government gets, the less efficient, more costly and undesirable it becomes. Our government should limit itself to what it is constitutionally mandated to do, and very little else. It then, by its very nature, provides its citizenry the opportunity to be at liberty, and to pursue the American Dream.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Silvio Berlusconi Privatized Social Security for Italians...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aty4gEh9wups&refer=home

 Following the Bush Ideology of privatizing social security for some Italians, Berlusconi is facing some blowback.

 

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi’s  administration is now considering ways to compensate as many as 1.2 million people who made the switch, giving up a fixed return for private plans linked to financial markets. It’s also letting people delay redemptions on retirement funds to avoid losses after Italy’s benchmark  stock index fell 50 percent in 2008, destroying 300 billion euros ($423 billion) in wealth.

 

Of course this shows the difficulty of honoring the contractual agreement known as social security, a safety net created for retirees. It would be easy to fix if folks would stop raiding the funds, and if folks would agree to pay a dollar or two more in taxes. Oddly that is never mentioned as an option.

 IN the name of a fundamentalist ideology of never raising taxes, is it really worth blowing up the global economy by doing tricks to create unrealistic 'growth'.

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Absurd?

Hold on a minute...

Those people made the choice, just as I would gladly do if given the opportunity, to take their retirement into their own hands. And now that the market is down, the taxpayers are supposed to reimburse these folks...

What if they had made twice as much money as the other group of retiree's, would the government, and vis-a-vis the taxpayers in the later group then be forced to compensate the others...

Government, certainly the US Government is not an insurance company, a bank, or any other form of individual retirement account provider. It has no lawful designation as such, and therefore has no right to be taxing (withholding) citizens property (money), and then borrowing against it, etc., etc.

Social Security is just ANOTHER abuse of the role the Federal Government is Constitutionally restrained to play.

The sad thing is, ironically, this whole liberal - Obama driven deal is completely designed to just do more of it, they are licking their chops in anticipation of more, bigger, and costly, government encroachment into individual liberties.

A heinous offense to anyone who takes this country, or the principles it is founded on seriously.

(I had a whole additional 2 paragraphs, but in an effort to live within my New Years SC resolution, I deleted them.) ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Dude wake up

 the US Government is not an insurance company, a bank, or any other form of individual retirement account provider. 

Have you been keeping up with the news?????

 Are you living in a dream world? The govt essentially nationalized it's favorite banks, the ones that took the most risk, while 'Heck of a Job', SEC and the thousands of folks who work at there were drawing a salary for protecting crooks.

Get a clue. 

  Social Security keeps our society a civil one. We pay into it you know. It's an investment retirement fund that keeps our society civil.

 The practical reality which you are missing is the citizens who drank the kool-aid in Italy are pissed, have no retirement now, and the Italian govt is going to have to fork over the dough anyway. It's a lose lose.

 Thank God we didn't fall for that scam here in the US. 

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My my my...

Are you out on some George Soros cruise ship or something?

Are you living in a dream world? The govt essentially nationalized it's favorite banks, the ones that took the most risk, while 'Heck of a Job', SEC and the thousands of folks who work at there were drawing a salary for protecting crooks. Get a clue

Because it happened, does NOT make it right.

So as you weave yet another of your lame conspiratorial tales, keep in mind this IS STILL AMERICA.

Social Security keeps our society a civil one. We pay into it you know. It's an investment retirement fund that keeps our society civil.

No my dear, SS is/was the grossest example of what America DOES NOT believe in.

It is also one of the greatest examples of how F'd up things get when the govenment gets involved in matters like these...

How in the world can you say with a straight face SS makes us a civil society...It's a nightmare. It is only in your marxist little mind that the IDEA of SS makes you feel good about what you believe our society is supposed to be... ;-)

Perhaps you neo-socialist liberals fancy the idea of a collective Utopian America, but I, like the founders, and like most rational people will acknowledge, and understand there is no such thing, and recognize every attempt to ever bring one into fruition has ended in misery, and in a cruel twist, it seems to be doubly so for those for whom the whole scheme was intended to protect in the first place.

Bad idea.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Social Security

SS is/was the grossest example of what America DOES NOT believe in.

Yes, that is why "I want to do away with Social Security" is such a common campaign promise! Guaranteed winner, that.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Actually - it gets talked about a great deal...

...usually in terms of reform...but often nonetheless...

...you must be busy compiling that Obama button collection...

;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Not the same thing at all

Very few people would argue that SS could not use a bit of reform. That's a far cry from saying it is the grossest example of what America does not believe in.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I think you would be very surprised...

...SS gets discussed regularly, and particularly recently, as people are re-examining Roosevelt, and the New Deal, there has been plenty of scholorly debate over whether or not SS, the Fed, and big government has done more harm than good, and even that it should be abolished.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Not surprised at all

I'm just trying to point out your over-the-top hyperbole. Scholarly debate on a subject doesn't even come close to "grossest example of what America does not believe in."

A very recent poll shows this:

Currently, people pay Social Security taxes on the first $102,000 workers earn each year. People who make more than that do not pay Social Security taxes on salary and wages above that level. Should Social Security taxes be paid on ALL OR MOST OF THE income workers earn each year?

60% Yes
29% No
11% Not sure

I don't see how you can say that the concept of Social Security is something America doesn't believe in with numbers like that. It's a valid debate whether we should believe in it, of course, but I think it is quite clear that we currently do believe in it.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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No, I disagree...

I think it is a reality that we currently have SS, so questions relating to how we should currently administrate it... are quite irrelevant... to the question of if we believe in it as a country or not.

And Miss L thinks Madoff played a Ponzi scheme on the American people...

Under Social Security, lower and middle class individuals are forced to pay a significant portion of their income, approximately 12 percent for the alleged purpose of securing their retirement. That money is not saved or invested, but transferred directly to the program's current beneficiaries with the "promise" that when current taxpayers get old, the income of future taxpayers will be transferred to them. Since this scheme creates no wealth, any benefits one person receives in excess of his payments necessarily come at the expense of others. Under Social Security, whether an individual gets twice as much from others as was taken from them, or half as much, or nothing at all, is entirely at the discretion of politicians. They cannot count on Social Security for anything-except a massive drain on his income. Therefore, there is absolutely no way that the system can even guarantee future retirees the equal amount that they had previously contributed to Social security, making this system inequitable.

Fixing the Social security system is essentially impossible. The government has increased the payroll tax 17 times since 1935 yet, the system is still crippling. Proving my point further, that Social security should be abolished immediately.

In 2002, there were 186 million workers in America and 190 million retired people. This was the beginning of the end of the Social security system. The workforce can no longer acquire the money necessary to give to the retirement population. The evidence continues to mount. According to newyorktimes.com, by 2010, while 41 million new workers enter the workforce, a staggering 76 million workers will enter retirement. This is an unfathomable amount and impossible for the social security system to reach a solution for how these retired people are going to get money.

How much, when, and in what form one should provide for retirement is highly individual-and is properly left to the individual's free judgment and action. Social Security deprives the individual of this freedom, and thus makes them less able to plan for the future, less able to provide for their retirements, less able to enjoy their most vital years, and less able to invest in themselves.

If Social Security did not exist, individual workers could be free to use that 12 percent of their income as they choose making their ability to better their future incomparably greater. They could save for their retirement with a diversified, long-term, productive investment in stocks or bonds. Or they could reasonably choose not to devote all 12 percent to retirement. They might choose to work far past the age of 65 or choose to invest in their own productivity through additional education or starting a business. So the future of this individual's life is up to no one but themselves. This would encourage many Americans to work to earn money for a better future.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Sigh

Your rather long (and unattributed) quote does an admirable job of showing that at least one person does not believe in SS, and points out some real problems with it, but it is also irrelevant to the question of whether we as a country believe in the concept of SS.

Here's another question from that poll:

Is Social Security a good deal for working Americans today?

46% Yes
37% No
18% Not sure

So more Americans think it's a good deal than not, yet you still think we as a country don't believe in it? There is a difference, you do realize, between what America is and your ideal vision of what America should be.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Sigh

Your rather short (and unattributed) poll numbers indicate a real lack of zeal for SS my dear.

Thats a very close poll, and I could easily produce a poll that indicates the opposite, with much more decisive %'s. The fact is many Americans are disillutioned with SS SL. Like it or not, that is the truth of the matter. It is a disaster of a program, destined for failure, and people aren't stupid, they realize that.

My information is from a debate brief, where it seems they are finding it a worthy topic too. ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Duh

1) I linked to the poll in my first post, so it's not unattributed. Do you have a link to your "debate brief" or is it confidential? You might want to at least tell us the name of the person who wrote it. Did you write it yourself?

2) You could easily produce a poll... but you don't.

3) Many Americans are disillusioned with SS. Yep. Many Americans are also disillusioned with the Republican Party. So I guess that makes Republicanism the grossest example of what America doesn't believe in, right?

4) I have already said it is a worthy topic. Where we disagree is that you seem to think that America as a whole thinks exactly the way you think. You are wrong. Witness the 2006 and 2008 elections as a bit of evidence. Witness that on almost every topic worthy of debate, the American populace is split at best 60-40, if not 50-50.

I stand by my original thesis: your claim that "SS is/was the grossest example of what America DOES NOT believe in" is not merely foolishly hyperbolic, it is just plain wrong.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Ah ha...

1) I linked to it from this website. I posted it not because it is some Magna Carta of why we need to abolish SS, but just because it listed some of the funamentals.

2) I can dig one up if you would like me too.

3) I am implying, in case you haven't gathered, that yes, SS is indeed a "gross" example of the kind of federal over reaching that is fundamentally contrary to American principles.

I mean SS takes what, 12.5% on average, of workers incomes! F that man, citizens are forced to participate in a compulsory wage deduction with a promise that it will one day be redistributed back to me when my turn comes...no thank you. That is NOT AN AMERICAN IDEA!

4) I don't think all Americans think exactly as I do, in fact I'm quite aware SL many think quite differently than I do, but the problem of SS is a thread that runs through and crosses religous, ethnic, and political differences, and it a FACT that SS is a big ? for most Americans at this point, it is an unworkable redistribution of wealth that is doomed to fail, and most people know that.

Therefore I stand by my assertion that SS is indeed a gross example of social engineering in America that is unpopular, unconstitutional and un-American.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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OK

I won't argue about it anymore. I accept that SS is un-American, according to your view of what America means. I don't particularly believe, though, that it is un-American, according to what America actually is today. If you want to post a poll to try to convince me, feel free, but so far all you have done is stated your personal opinions, and that has been wholly unconvincing.

(Note that in my view, wanting to reform something is an indication that one finds the basic concept acceptable, but have problems with the implemetation. So if you can find a respectable poll that actually shows that a majority of Americans want to do away with SS, not just reform it, then my hat is off to you, sir.)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Look, I think we are more in agreement than it appears...

My primary point is not that as we sit here today, that an Obama smitten nation is out to abolish SS. But I am saying 1) it is, by virtue of it's very nature, not appropriate for the Federal Government to be in the SS business, and 2) furthermore, most Americans harbor resentment and feel uncomfortable and uncertain with SS. Will they talk about reform, sure, when a government program is broken, they usually stay that way or get reformed to some degree, so I don't find it surprising that the main emphasis is around reformation.

The federal government does these things so poorly, I don't know why anyone would want them in their retirement business anyway? But...

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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If you want to stick to the original

 piece of paper, then women are constitutionally restrained from voting, and black folks are property.

 

 

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No comment...

...other than to acknowledge how genuinely callow you appear..

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Can we start the new year off

without immediately attacking character?   Shred the ideas, by all means, but it's a weak argument that drops to shredding the poster.

I know you get your share of that too.  Consider this comment a broad brush ;-)

 

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I agree...

...and I will try harder...

...it's difficult however when the ideas are mired so deeply in the pathology of the poster... ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Thanks to PF

 she underlines an important point. 

  The concerted effort to delegitemize  liberals or liberal ideas as pathological has been SOP for far too long now. 

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Awe...poor liberals...

...and... "concerted effort"....to make liberals "appear" pathalogical... ROTFL!

you're certainly not making that job too difficult for ..."THEM"...

...concerted huh...?

Really?

...MORE "conspiracy theory" from Miss L...

Concerted...OMG...LOL!

...Oh brother...?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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The latest news...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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The MRC's weak attempt to mimic the Daily Show

 

Just as Air America failed in their attempts to make a 180-degree version of the Limbaugh/Hannity/etc talk radio juggernaut....

...the MRC's attempt to create a right-wing version of John Stewart or Stephen Colbert is equally a failure.

This was SO cringeworthy that it became funny... but not for the reasons that it wanted to.  Seriously.... a laugh track?

Just another example of conservatives trying to be "hip" and failing miserably.  They're like the "PC" guy in the "PC vs Mac" commercials.....  perpetually.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

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The funniest part...

is the title - NewsBusted. I assume that has something to do with the way the anchorwoman is constantly shakin' her stuff. Perhaps it's meant to be a parody of the Fox Newsbabes?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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This is no such attempt...

..it is a lighthearted five minute news brief, with a conservative twist...big deal?

Hardly on the massive belly flop Air America made that was heard around the world! LOL!

That's ok for you, the paranoid left will soon try their best to take away more American liberties by enacting the Fairness Doctrine.

So much for the free press...

Boy, America's sure headed the right direction in this Obama era...yikes...NOT!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Educate thyself

Obama does not support the Fairness Doctrine. Cast your aspersions elsewhere.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Educate yourself...

I never said Barry does, Pelosi and Reid certainly do. And Barry will not oppose it, thats for sure!

A little thin skinned today SL?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I apologize

Your comment about the "Obama era" seemed to imply that you were laying at least part of the blame for your imaginary future on him. It is possible that you knew Obama does not support the Fairness Doctrine and were simply being intellectually dishonest with your phrasing. If that is the case, then I am sorry for assuming you didn't know what you were doing.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I'll donate $100 to your favorite charity....

..if the Fairness Doctrine, or anything like it, gets passed during the Obama 8-year Presidency.

Deal?

Your right-wing radio gods like Hannity have been stirring up your passion on this non-issue the past few months because they want to keep you engaged and outraged.

There is NO threat for this to happen.  It will NOT happen.   It's a made-up issue.... made up by the Hannity's and Limbaugh's of the world to keep their flock sufficiently outraged, even as the world's conditions improve over the next few years.

...and apparently it is working with you.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

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Make it payable to Surfrider Foundation...

...though the evil side of me wants me to have you send it to the RNC... ;-)

I hope you are right, Surfrider can get by without an additional $100, but I think you may be underestimating your liberal congressional minions...

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Anything resembling the Fairness Doctrine would ....

... fail a court challenge nowadays.

The point of the old Fairness Doctrine was that there was only so much space available on the electromagnetic spectrum for over-the-air broadcasts (radio and TV), so there was a compelling argument to prevent a monopoly on the airwaves because there was no alternative for opposing viewpoints.

But that was before:

Cable and Dish TV
Satellite Radio
The Internet

Now.... there is no physical restriction on gaining access to media, and so there is no need for the Fairness Doctrine.

Don't like Fox News?   Start your own cable station.

Don't like Limbaugh and Hannity?   There's an endless supply of satellite and internet radio stations available to you to present and alternative.

Don't like Drudge?  Go read HuffPo.

 

There is NO chance that anything resembling the Fairness Doctrine will be implemented.  It's scare-mongering by right-wing radio hosts trying to keep their flock in a tizzy.

...and if some ill-considered bill were to pass and end up on Obama's desk... he wouldn't sign it.   And even if he did, it would fail a court challenge.

NON-ISSUE.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

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BRAVO! Maybe you're not so bad after all... LOL!

;-) Well said, and true! I couldn't agree more with everthing you said!

But then why are Nancy and Harry beating on that drum...?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Yea, well except HuffPo is more like the Entertainment Tonight

of Politics.  I hardly go there any more.  Same thing with Wonkette.  it used to be edgy, crude & funny.  Now it sucks.

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Production complaint

The laugh track ruins anything that might be funny.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I would agree with that.

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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What is Israel's desired end-state in Gaza?

On the surface, Israel appears to be duplicating the mistakes made in the invasion of Lebanon: inflicting unacceptably high collateral damage while being unable to eradicate the terrorist group targeted (Hamas in this case, Hezbollah in southern Lebanon).

Israel absolutely has the right to defend itself, and Hamas bears responsibility for not curtailing the rocket fire that provoked this attack, but that doesn't mean that the assault on Gaza is a good idea. In a sense, Hamas gains legitimacy and influence when Israel (over)reacts and pushes Palestinian civilians to take sides. So what is Israel thinking? 

One possibility, and I am just throwing this out there, is that Israel is trying to destabilize Gaza to enable Fatah to topple Hamas. That fear is probably behind the brutal executions of Fatah members by Hamas recently. Will it work? I would say such a plan does have a reasonable chance of success, and perhaps this is what distinguishes the Gaza attack from Lebanon in the minds of Israeli leaders. Is it worth it in terms of the costs in human lives and suffering? I don't know, that's a hard argument to make when looking at the casualties.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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I wish it was to stop the rocket attacks...but I know it's more.

I don't think they collectively know.  I would suspect that certain factions have their own desires, but they differ from faction to faction.

How do you talk to a government that refuses to recognise you?  I'd say talk straight to the people and deal with it that way.

I don't have an answer that I like.

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That seems regrettably likely

I don't think they collectively know.

Quite possibly true. The lack of a coherent long-term strategy from Israel really hinders the likelihood of lasting progress. This derives in part from the failures in Lebanon, which undermined support for a lot of the politicians involved. Probably true about different factions having different aims, too, although Israel is certainly less fractured than the Palestinians, and even than the Palestinians in Gaza.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Where were all these voices for a cease fire...

...during the long period of time that Hamas has been continuously raining rockets down on Israel?

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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If Diane Feinstein hates Leon Panetta, does that mean that

GoRight loves Leon Panetta?

…………

Leon Panetta is a bonehead!

As much as I hate to think I'm in agreement with DF, still...bonehead!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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You can murmur that here, but don't repeat it on some

of the less liberal sites.  They'll run you outta town.

Honestly I am really appreciating the pick.  Don't confuse Democrat with anti-American, no matter what Fox & Rush say.  I especially like that it hacked off DiFi & Jay Rockefeller.  Total bonus points.

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What does it take to convict a cop?

How often have we seen cops acquitted of criminal charges after shooting an unarmed citizen? Typically all the defense has to say is that the victim appeared to be reaching for a weapon (never mind that there was no actual weapon!) or just "made a sudden move" and the officer walks when even meager charges are brought. Just two of many examples: Tarika Wilson , Sean Bell .

Another high-profile incident happened this New Year, in Oakland. A young black man (shocking, I know) was shot in the back by BART police while being restrained lying on the ground. There's video from multiple sources, something not always available in these cases, so there is a limit to what the defense can claim. It seems possible they will argue the officer confused his gun with a Taser.

Just for giggles, compare the benefit of the doubt typically extended to the officer in these types of cases with that given to someone like Cory Maye , who was initially sentenced to death (since reduced to life in prison) for shooting a cop who burst into his house in the middle of the night as part of a drug raid targeting the neighboring duplex. Maye says he thought the cop was an intruder, but citizens aren't allowed to make those kind of mistakes, even if the police created a confusing situation. Cops, on the other hand, can seemingly kill with little fear of serious consequences. We'll see if this case changes that at all.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Know your rights, these are your rights.

You have the right not to be killed, murder is a crime, unless done by a policeman or an aristocrat, oh know your rights.

Why would a jury think Cory Maye would just start shooting at cops? I don't see how from first glance how Maye could have even lost a civil law case let alone a criminal case.

Professionals are held to a higher standard of negligence when it comes to acts done within their professional skill set. There should be a good chance of Involuntary Manslaughter charges being brought against the officer, when a suspect is handcuffed, face down on the ground, all the other officers have stepped back. No one was in eminent harm for sure. Not checking if one had a taser or or handgun in their hands at the very least borders on criminal negligence [needed for involuntary manslaughter] for a trained law enforcement officer.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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That seems to be what the family lawyer

thinks as well:

Second-degree murder charges would be warranted if the officer shot Grant in the back when Grant posed no danger, Burris said. However, there are reports speculating that the officer accidentally shot Grant, in which case involuntary manslaughter charges would be appropriate, Burris said.

Regarding Maye, I have no idea what the jury thought his motivation would be for shooting at cops, particularly since he stopped shooting once it became clear that they were police (after Jones had already, tragically, been fatally wounded). There was a lot of shady testimony, apparently, so maybe that played a role, and Maye's first lawyer may have been in over her head.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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