Wednesday & Thursday OT

Things may be calming down in Gaza . Hopefully.

Franken's declared the winner in MN, but Coleman's legal challenge postpones his official seating in Washington. The situation should be cleared up in two to three weeks. Burris's claim to a seat is also tenuous and scandal-ridden , but it looks like he too may be victorious despite opposition.

In financial news, Obama gets handed a $1.2 trillion dollar deficit . This rate could increase with Obama's proposed further tax cuts and stimulus plans.

Current data reports that teen births are up significantly in 26 states . I guess that 'abstinence only' drive is reaping its benefits.

A 2 year-old won the Liar's Club "Best Lie of 2008" with his ability to convince his mother that the smell from his diaper was someone else. Dare I ask what you believe the best lie of 2008 was?

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Deficits Don't Matter

 For the last seven years the GOP hasn't been able to work up any spit about the deficit. Suddenly now that the global economy has frozen, and the macro and micro trends say consumers are spending less  (especially on credit card debt), and that the private sector banks are not lending in spite of a massive infusion by the Feds,  the GOP has found religion on the national debt in typical myopic fashion, just in time to be the party of opposition.

Clearly it matters less what your principles are than it does that one just oppose democratic policies for the sake of it.

http://spectator.org/archives/2004/03/30/deficits-dont-matter

I can't believe that I am writing about budget deficits again. The Bush Administration's $520 billion deficit forecast for this year doesn't bother me, but the deficit phobia and media outcry is getting tiresome. I thought this had been resolved and agree with Vice President Cheney, who reportedly told Paul O'Neill, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." He was right. ~ Brian Wesbury

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_52/b3914021_mz007.htm

Opposites are True?

Supply-siders believe deficits don't matter because tax cuts so boost investment and productivity that the economy grows its way out of debt. The opposite, "starve the beast" faction, epitomized by tax tactician Grover Norquist, hope tax cuts will indeed create deep deficits that will then force spending cuts. But both things can't be true. ~ Robert Kuttner

 

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_berry&sid=ac...

 Myopic Republicans

Jan. 8 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. economy is in the throes of a deepening recession  and needs a really big dose of fiscal stimulus to help stabilize it.

What it doesn’t need is efforts by congressional Republicans to limit the size of the package because of feigned concerns about how much additional spending might add to the national debt. ~ John M Berry

 

…………

Hint: Try not always being so hateful in your observations...

...I know - yes I am doing that too... ;-)

Listen, republicans realize we must get back to basics. Bush was one of those government bureaucrats that ran the government a muck like we talked about in a seperate thread yesterday.

Your Spectator quote lacks anything much in the way of substance, because Cheney thought something, since when is that quotable? Reagan was putting the USSR out of business, Newt and the Republican Congress in the 90's worked hard to control spending, balance the budget, and act fiscally responsible.

Your businessweek quote acknowledges that there are two different approaches, but that indeed tax cuts will solve the deficit issue. I'm not sure how that bolsters your "stupid republicans" concept?

And your Bloomberg quote is just a liberal talking point.

You make this grandiose accusation in your opening remarks, then fall flat on your face in a failed attempt to prove it?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Actually

The disconnect here is a very easy one to spot.

Deficits are A-OK if they are to pay for Republican pet projects, but not ok if they are for Democratic pet projects.

The fact that there are such things as Republican pet projects (see SDI for example), means that they've fallen far from their conservative roots.  And don't get me wrong here.  The Democrats cry about deficits, but only when they're in the minority.

To be very blunt, deficits don't matter ... when their party is the one running them up.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Too lazy of a partisan answer bro...

It is true republicans must be talking about something while Barry attempts to install his Bolshevist ideals...

but the difference is, this is a "correct" position for we republicans to adopt.

People always whine about republicans forsaking their principles, then when they stand on them, you whine about that too!

LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Meh

Not at all.

I'm whining because they aren't consistent.  Neither are the Democrats.

I agree 100% that this is the correct position for Republicans to adopt.  I'd like to see them kill this stimulus bill.  However, you and I both know that if the Republicans were in charge, they'd be more than happy to run up any deficit that was "required" by the situation.  The only difference would be the details of the plan.  I'd bet more would be targeted toward capital gains taxes and dropping marginal taxes on the highest tax brackets.

The fact is that they'd still be all too happy to use red ink.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Of course...

...but I like that the republicans are sort of forced to take a look at what they are all about. I think we all will be surprised.John Boener and those guys are serious about getting the republican party back to it's basics.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I hope you are correct (n/t)

 

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

They don't, sometimes

Some valid points, but specious tit-for-tat isn't really helpful in illuminating the road ahead.

First, there is no consensus that an economic stimulus package will actually solve / minimize / mitigate what lies ahead.  It might, but it might not.  And assuming we decide that it's worth the risk anyway, there is little consensus on exactly how such stimulus is to be delivered to be the most effective.   (Personally, I still think the best way to help Detroit is to send $25K vouchers for new cars to a million randomly determined taxpayers---they'd buy cars so Detroit would be happy, they might be able to improve their employment or housing because they'd have a better car and more disposable income, etc; but that's just me.)  We can argue over the odds, but it's still a crap shoot, and we're betting much more than the farm.

Second, it's true that some level of deficit spending is probably okay; between increased output (and therefore increased tax income) and gradual inflation, deficits can resolve themselves.    But deficits are cumulative, and like it or not, the Obama administration is inheriting a huge debt that they cannot ignore.  Just like for any of us, at some point just paying the interest on the debt doesn't cut it any more.   Without some fiscal sanity, we may easily and quickly reach the point where just paying the interest swallows up a huge portion of the annual tax receipts.   Somebody has to keep pointing that out, and it's usually the minority party who does so.

Third, it WOULD indeed be very nice if Congress could live within its means and give us all a bit of a tax break.   I'd like that....wouldn't you?

Instead of painting this solely in terms of party, what I see is just greed and stupidity.   Give people power to spend, and they will, regardless of the political theology they spout.   And if you think the millionaires in Congress really care about you or me or what might come of their actions, or that they care *enough* to actually take hard, unpopular stances that might compromise their personal incomes, then I want some of what you've been smoking.

This Administration will spend enormous sums betting that it might make a difference in the short term, because not to do so is political suicide.   Just like the previous party's piggies who sought political gain via taxpayer dollars.  I fail to see how that makes one side "worse" than the other.   

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Good points PF!

I am, as you could have most probably guessed, VERY skeptical about spending good money after bad.

No spending the government has done during this thing has helped one iota. Not the check we all got, not the 770 billion the banks are getting, it is just a big bad idea.

It is not the governments job to fix the economy anyway, it is the governments job to set the conditions so the economy can fix itself. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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The check did help

It just wan't big enough.

I'd need one for around $50,000 to get me to spend.  $300 doesn't cut it. ;-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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The story is

  and has been stagnant wages. Folks were definitely living beyond their means, riding the good times of home equity loans, to buy buy buy.

  If consumers become more cautious due to economic uncertainty and actually start putting money in their savings account it constricts GDP. The net culmulative effect of less consumer spending is in simple terms a loss of jobs.

 The Bush administration (republican) was loathe to think that regulation of any kind was important. If you want to suggest that recognizing the failure of our regulating agencies such as SEC, is some kind of speciious tit for tat, well I think that is silly. I don't know how you can ever solve a problem unless you admit that you have one.

 Your suggestion that the *spending* is to blame, is a bit off the mark. It isn't *spending* that caused this problem, it's the lack of it. The lack of spending is due to frozen credit markets and flat wages.

  I don't think the President-elect has much of a choice on spending enormous sums, but I think he is looking more towards a viable and sustainable future.

  You can't have a sustainable economy losing a half a million jobs a month.

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You must not remember the early 80's

Not to make light of today's problems, but unemployment and job losses during the early 1980's were quite severe, much more so that we have seen so far, and  yet our economy "sustained."

It's not pleasant, it's not fun, but to say "you can't have a sustainable economy" is hyperbole. 

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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In the 80s, we still had a manufacturing base in this country

We were still "making stuff". Not now. How do we pull ourselves out of it this time? It will be tougher for a service-based economy to turn things around. Not to mention... our national debt was only about $1 trillion in 1980. $11 trillion now.

I survived the Bush Administration

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Living in a dream...How soon we (choose to) forget...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Hamas continues to use civilians as human shields

Please also note the sourcing on this , it is not simply an IDF claim:

Palestinians reported some two dozen airstrikes in Gaza on Thursday. One militant was killed and 10 wounded in Gaza City, while an airstrike in northern Gaza killed three members of a rocket-launching cell, Palestinian medical officials said. The attack took place about 150 yards from a hospital and wounded 12 bystanders. The Israeli army has repeatedly said militants use civilian areas for cover.

Such tactics are simply standard practice, and unfortunately so is the Israeli response. For example, from last year :

An Israeli missile hit the grounds of an agricultural school in Beit Hanoun, a town in northern Gaza, killing a teacher, Hani Naim, 43, and wounding three students, according to a local resident who monitors violent activity in the area.[...]

Images from The Associated Press Television News showed the school in Thursday’s airstrike to be a series of huts in a rural area. A rocket-launching device was spotted between olive trees, indicating that militants had used the school as cover to launch attacks, according to The A.P.

Israel finds itself in a no-win situation, either having to permit attacks from behind civilian cover or else to retaliate in a way that puts non-combatant lives in danger. That it faces such choices is of course despicable, but IMHO greater care needs to be taken to avoid collateral damage. Most of the responsibility for avoidable civilian deaths in these situations falls on the militants who use them for cover, but that's kind of an academic point.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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I'd would add

to "Israel finds itself in a no-win situation", generally, the world finds itself in a no-win situation, re: this war/conflict. It's a wretch-worthy mess.

 

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Yes, it's hard to see a positive and lasting outcome

to the current conflict. We can always hope, of course.

I added a few more thoughts here for anyone interested.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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It is worth pointing out

that Israel is in this position precisely because they have fifty years of history of oppression and indiscriminate attacks on civilians.  The palestinians have every reason on earth to know that Israel will kill their noncombatants anyway.  That being the case why shouldn't they eke out what advantage they can from the resulting atrocities.

Israel reaps what it has sown.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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ditto

Hamas uses human shields and Israel doesn't care.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Whatever the generalizations may be...

...it can at the very least be said that Israel has made a concerted effort to live in peace. Israeli's are not doing suicide bombings in Gaza, Israel has not been indiscriminately raining down rockets on the Palestinians, etc. ad-infinitum.

Again, whatever the deeper issues may be, and without losing oneself in the age old rhetoric, it is very apparent who the bad guys are.

I am no big time Israel fan, but I do not fault them one bit, in fact if I was running Israel I would run them all out of Gaza and let the numerous sympathetic countries in the area take them once and for all.

Wouldn't that mean a major military action you ask? Yep.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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It could be said

but it would be a blatant lie.  Israel has made a concerted effort to live in a state of continual war.  It has consistently sabotaged any scrap of peace that has come along.  Every time its enemies appear to be relaxing the IDF coincidentally launches a raid, or bombs an apartment cuilding or just murders a few palestinain civilians with gunships, or kidnaps palestinian politicians.

The palestinians are no angels but this situation is vastly more the fault of the Israelis who are, afterall, the invaders into the Palestinians homes. 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Complete Bull$h!t Tlaloc.

(See Brendans post below...)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Would you try defending your

Would you try defending your neighbors home if Mexico decided they wanted their north-west territories back?

If the human shields are doing that on purpose and going out of their way to do so, then they're some sort active unarmed militia.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Again you digress?

You have a great deal of difficulty staying on topic. You love to pick a detail of some larger issue that is being discussed, one that suits your disdain for whatever, and bounce around from one to the other instead working thru the facts at hand? You did this with Padilla, and now the poor human shields...

If the "human shields" don't want to be subject to being killed by angry Jews...they should stop blowing themselves up on buses in Israel, they should stop firing rockets into Israel. Israel takes it, and takes it, and takes it...then finally takes appropriate military retaliatory measures... and you object?

What would you have the Israeli's do?

Why don't you object to the atrocious terorrist type of behavior on the part of the Palestinians?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Right

Active unarmed militia is a good way to put it. 

Doesn't mean that Israel should regard them as legitimate targets, of course, but they are in a different category from the civilians who are being used unwittingly or unwillingly as shields.

With respect to the first part of the analogy, I'd note that Israel is not trying to recapture land in Gaza. They already ceded the entire strip, and forcibly removed settlers to do so.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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At the same time

Israel has done an awful lot to make sure that the Palestininas in Gaza have no chance of doing anything but spiral into chaos.  At which point, what do you want to bet Israel will "have" to move in and take control?

They've put in place embargos, kidnapped the palestinain government, made military strikes.  If Israel really wanted to let the Palestinians have some sliver of their lands back then they've done one hell of  bad job of it.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You seem like you've bought into it...but...

Israel has done an awful lot to make sure that the Palestininas in Gaza have no chance of doing anything but spiral into chaos.

How's that? By tolerating their children and women being targeted and blown up, by sitting by and trying desperately through flacid political channels to stop the artillery attacks? By retaliating from time to time when the terrorism becomes unbearable?

At which point, what do you want to bet Israel will "have" to move in and take control?

Unsubstantiated hyperbole...at best.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Already answered

I already answered your question: Israel has sabotaged gaza by putting in place an embargo of things that have nothing to do with rockets:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7206044.stm

Israel has kidnapped at least 60 membersof the Palestinian elected government:

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/6-29-2006-100809.asp

The military strikes on sites such as universities hopefully need no support since they're currently all over the news.  Oh, what the hell, let's pick out an example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5066496.stm

Israeli artillery shell just happens to hit a Palestinain beach killing seven civilians with no provocation whatsoever. 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Interesting example

You are confident that Israel shelled the beach? I am not saying they didn't, but it seems to me possible that unexploded ordnance was to blame. 

Even if so, would you claim Israel deliberately targeted Palestinian civilians, as opposed to accidentally misfiring a shell?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Confident? Sure.

100% sure?  No.  It is possible that the explosion occured in some other way, but that seems to be a distinct minority.  As for the question of deliberatly targetting... there are only so many convenient accidents before suspension of disbelief is violated.  It's like the use of White Phosphorus in Fallujah by the US.  The military immediatley denied they had used WP at all, then admitted they had used it but claimed only as marking shells and not as a weapon.  Then they finally fess up that it had in fact been used as a weapon all along.

Anyone who has paid attention could guess from the outset that the US military was lying simply by playng the averages.  They've been caught too many times for them to get any benefit of the doubt.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Tlaloc, why no emphasis on the Palestinians...

...to simply stop provoking the Israeli's.

The Israeli's have a right, no, they have a duty to their citizens to actively defend their country.

We could go on forever exchanging tit for tat, but the net on that deal is, if the Palestinians would stop terrorizing the Jews, the area would be peaceful.

Because...

...the truth of the matter, and the impetus for all this is; the Israeli's are not initiating conflict, the Palestinians are.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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For four reasons

1) The initial crime wa Israels.  They are the invaders who stole lands from the Palestinains because they didn't regard them as human and deserving of rights.  That put the greater share of responsibility on them to make amends.

2) The worst atrocities always seem to come from Israel.  The most recent example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/world/middleeast/10zeitoun.html

This also put s the greater burdenon Israel because they are consistently the worst offenders.

3) Israel is a first world country with an advanced military and nuclear weapons.  This also puts the onus on Israel because they are the ones wh have the most capacity to kill people and destabilize the region, thus they have the most responsibility.

4) Finally, we give Israel lots of money to buy the munitions they are currently using to murder palestinains.  In fact for this year it looks like 2.5 billion dollars worth of blood on our hands.  That means we have greater responsibility to criticize and monitor Israel, because their warmachine functions due to our largesse.  When they commit atrocities we are partially to blame.

Israel is not defending their country, they are attack another.  Really Israel has no country to defend since it was entirely a function of theft from the rightful owners (the same people not coincidentally currently being butchered).

I know you probably really don;t care but if you sit down and look at the timeline you'll find that most of the time, not always but most of the time, it is actually Israel that starts the conflict.  They'll conduct illegal raids and kidnappings or embargos and when the Palestinains respond with the only weapon in their arsenal the Israelis feign self righteousness and hurt.  It's nauseating. And they only get away with it because of us.  That's more nauseating.

Let Israel walk on its own without us to bully its neighbors and you'll suddenly find them a lot more amenable to the negotiations they currently sabotage.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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LOL! ...if it walks like a Palestinian...

You obviously have been indoctrinated into a way of viewing this that prevents any dispassionate, equitable discernment.

Without dragging this on for longer than we should, I just think I should point out, because your core premise is intrinsically flawed , (Jew's were actually the founders of Jerusalem, and have always been present there to one degree or another) your whole argument is fundementally moot.

Not to mention the liner notes are poorly constructed propagana and not factual.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Jews did indeed found Jerusalem

But Israel (the modern country) did not exist until modern times.  Maybe a history refresher is in fact in order.  Before the Balfour decision a small minority of Jews lived in Palestine.  Some had lived there going all the way back to biblical time periods and some had migrated back to the area after facing persecution in Europe and Asia.  This latter group mostly were zionists, people who believed in the creation of an explicitly Jewish state in the holy land. 

During WW1 Balfour, a british foreign minister, issued a declaration that it was a good idea for the Jews to have a homeland in the middle east.  This wasn't a horrible idea in and of itself and might have been tried peacefully. 

At the request of Edwin Samuel Montagu and Lord Curzon , a line was also inserted stating "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".[43]

Okay so the original idea was to create a Jewish homeland but not to abuse the native Palestinians.  What actually happened is Brittain conquered the area along with military zionist units.  The natives were a bit upset by this turn of events and rioted.  In turn the zionist Jews formed a paramilitary group that became the foundation for their later IDF.  The League of Nations was all to happy to dump the resulting mess in the laps of the British (who certainly deserved it) giving them a mandate to control the area.  

So at the time the Brits ruled the place, the jews were a tiny minority and the arabs were seriously upset by having two sets of invaders suddenly sweep in and turn their lives upside down, often taking their farms and homelands and giving them to outsiders purely based on race.  Time goes on, more and more Jews migrate to the ares, particularly with the rise of Nazism in Germany.  The huge influx of new "settlers" put enormous pressure on the area and the incoming jews pushed and pushed the native arabs back and back.  The brits eventually restricted further jewish migration to israel and started putting limits on where in Palestine the Jews could "settle" (i.e. displace arab homes). 

This leads us up to 1945 and the state of Israel still doesn't exist.  The british limits were hated by the zionists and they conducted terrorist attacks against the brits to force them out of the area.  The brits got sick of fighting the jews in Palestine and washed their hands of the mess.  The newly formed UN stepped into the mess with a plan for two states, one jewish and one arab with Jerusalem overseen by the UN as a neutral site.  The Jews accepted and the arabs didn't and over the course of the next few days the Jewish military units forced some quarter of a million arabs to flee, grabbing up lands that were palestinian according to the agreement.  In 1948 Israel was officially founded.

So now maybe you can see how having the brits and zionists sweep in and take everything from the native Palestinains was maybe a bit of a bad idea.  And how it is the original sin of Israel that colors everything the nation has done since.  It also demostrates how the zionists were very willing to use paramilitary forces and terrorist tactics against a military superior foe, but now claim that such is abhorrent since now they have military supremacy.  Purest hypocrisy.  The IDF itself came from a terrorist organization and has the gall to decry the very tactics they once used.

Editted to remove some typos.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Holy Pontification...

ya ya ya, we know...

So what you're essentially saying is its the Palestinians turn to take over the area, the latest in an age old changing of the guard...?

You did say the Jews set up shop first in Jerusalem, did you not? So what does it matter who did what to who last?

The Jews have every right to be there, if not more so than anyone else.

Providing examples of a shot got of target, or the accidental death of an Innocent begs the underlying questions be asked, why?

But this is all just another digression from the real matter at hand, and that is in its current state how do they live peacefully here and now, and once again, despite of your flashcard history of the region, I submit the Israeli's are there, living peacefully, or trying too, and it is the ever menacing terror attacks from the Palestinians that initiate and perpetuate the bloodshed.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Sure the Jews should be able to live there

That's not the question, that's *never* been the question.  After all Jews were living in Palestine before the zionists got rolling.

The question has always been whether Jews should be able to move into an area and seize control just because their ancestors had lived there millenia ago.  The answer to that question should be no.  If the zionists had simply wanted the Jews to live in Palestine there wouldn't be a problem.  That's not what they wanted though, they wanted an exclusively Jewish Homeland.  And they were willing to take it from people whose only crime was living on land the zionists wanted. 

 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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GIve them Wyoming

We're not using it for anything.

;-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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You know if I thought they'd go for it

I'd be all over that kind of suggestion.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Well yes there is the larger question...

...however, our discussion has been, and emanated from the current parameters of occupation, and where blame should be brought for the recent bloodshed.

Again, in the context of that question, I assert the Palestinians have continually exacerbated the Israeli's patience by a relentless series of terror, be it suicide bombing, rockets, etc, and further assert if the former were to be curtailed in any substantive way the Israeli's could/would co-habitat with a Palestinian occupation of Gaza without the need for regular violence of the sort you have so aptly pointed out.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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The question I have is

Why are these your assertions? Why are you so certain that Israelis = Good, Palestinians = Evil? I refer you to one of your own statements upthread:

You obviously have been indoctrinated into a way of viewing this that prevents any dispassionate, equitable discernment.

I note that Tlaloc provides plenty of historical background to show why he has formed the opinions he has formed. From you we see assertions and submissions of things you believe, but few reasons why you think these are correct. I think a vast majority of Americans grow up in an environment where it is simply assumed that Israel is the good guys. But life is never so simple, so black and white. It's clear that there is blame on both sides, and I have to agree with Tlaloc when he says "so long as we are active supporters of one side then that's the side that has to clean up its act."

This may be related to the common conservative feeling that liberals are anti-American, when nothing could be further from the truth. It is just that liberals have high expectations of what the United States should be, and if that means pointing out our flaws, than that's what we do. The same thing is happening here, I believe. If the United States is going to be a firm supporter of Israel, then they need to be held to a very high standard.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Well....no.

I am not certain a = good, or b= bad, I am simply making dispassionate observations about the current state of affairs. Tlaloc does not make any historical statements that indicate otherwise whatsoever. He gives a history of the region, which I linked to up thread, he then gives examples of supposed wrong doings on the part of the Israeli's, which are easily countered by dirty deeds on behalf of the Palestinians, niether of which provide sufficient evidence to support the idea that the current violence is the fault of Israel.

My point is not that a shell didn't hit some innocent people on the beach, or this, nor that, it is only to say that because of the incessant mayhem being created by the Palestinians, the region remains in constant turmoil.

The Israeli's do not initiate these conflicts, they endure the taunting and unimaginable pain of having their wives and children killed needlessly, and at some stage or another, they decide they've had enough and retaliate, which in turn results in a conflict where Palestinians end up getting killed, and the world jumps on the band wagon and calls for a cease fire...well where were they for the prolonged rocket attacks on Israel, where were the cries for a cease fire then?

And as for this silly closing to your above post...

This may be related to the common conservative feeling that liberals are anti-American, when nothing could be further from the truth. It is just that liberals have high expectations of what the United States should be, and if that means pointing out our flaws, than that's what we do. The same thing is happening here, I believe. If the United States is going to be a firm supporter of Israel, then they need to be held to a very high standard.

Whatever? But I would suggest that Israel is held, and does abide by a far higher standard than that of the Palestinians, right or wrong as it may be.

Just one additional point of clarification, I am not a supporter of Israel - any more so than I am sympathetic of the Palestinian situation, however, in this instance I am stating the fact as it exists, and that is that the Palestinians are unquestionably the ever present aggressors and creators of bloodshed, it is there M.O. and has been for decades.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

The numbers just don't support your assertion

Look at this site:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/mostly.html

The site is if anything biased towards Israel, not Palestians, and yet they even admit, with regard to the 2000 Israel Palestine conflict:

But such numbers hide as much as they reveal: They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel. Correcting for such distortions, we can arrive at a figure of 617 Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel, compared to 471 Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians (see Graph 1.2). While Israelis account for 27 percent of the total fatalities as generally reported, they represent 43 percent of these noncombatant victims. There are a number of valid ways of arriving at such corrected figures to compare the extent to which each side has been responsible for the killing of noncombatants; they all show a much more balanced picture of the conflict than the raw totals do.

Graph 1.2 shows the gradually increasing number of noncombatant fatalities each side has suffered at the other's hands, along with the “noncombatant gap” – the number by which Israeli killing of Palestinian noncombatants exceeds Palestinian killing of Israeli noncombatants. It is worth noting that this “noncombatant gap” rose quickly in the first few months of the conflict, and has remained within a narrow range since then.

Got that? Israelis have killed more noncombatants than Palestinians and interestingly enough the gap exploded at the very beginning of the conflict, almost as if they were targetting civilians when they knew few were paying attention and then backed off as the various observers started rolling in country.  Quirky that.  Feel free to advance another hypothesis to explain the numbers.

Looking at B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organization (more sympathetic to the Palestians), we get the following stats for deaths from 2000 to present-

Palestinian non-combatants killed by Israelis: 4449
Israeli non-combatants killed by Palestinians: 964

And that number doesn't include Israel's pratice of assassination (euphemistically called "targetted killings").  It also doesn't include another 1666 Palestinians who were killed by Israelis where it is not clear if they were combatants or not.

Stats here:
http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp
 
So how is it, if Israel adheres to a higher standard, that they consistently kills far more noncombatants?  This isn't statistical noise.  This is a 4x difference over the course of a decade.
 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

That has about as much to do with our dialog as...

...how many apples were sold from Washington state in 2000.

You seem to always want to bring up unrelated disparaging information about your opponent's position regardless if it is pertinent to the focus of the discussion.

You want to argue about who has the greater ability to wage war, we can do that, and discuss the collateral implications, but we have not engaged in that issue.

Israeli's have much greater firepower and ability to make war...so what.

The point is why did any non-combatants, or combatants for that matter, have to get killed.

And they got killed for the very reasons I have continually asserted. That the Palestinians tactic to remain relevant has always been to unceasingly harass the Israeli's with whatever destructive methods you choose to illustrate, from throwing rocks to firing rockets. And the ensuing bloodshed is a direct result of that harassment via an eventual response from the Israeli's.

Again, to recap, the current violence in Gaza is a direct result of the rocket attacks that have been continuously being fired into Israel, just as all the devastating statistical information you provided has been developed, as a result of Palestinian aggression, and the eventual retaliation.

That is the nature of the game I'm afraid, and to argue otherwise is to ignore that fact. 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Or it was a direct refutation

of your position that Israel adheres to a higher standard. 

All these things cannot be true simultaneously:

1) Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties

2) Palestinians specifically target civilian casualties

3) Israel has advanced military weapons capable of high accuracy strikes

4) Palestinians mostly use low accuracy weapons more likely to cause accidental colateral damage

5) Isael has killed many times more innocents than Palestinians have

One or more of the above must be false.  I don;t think either of use disputes 2, 3, or 4.  I've given you supporting evidence for 5 (and seen no counter evidence).  That only eaves 1 as the unsupported assertion.  Occam's razor time.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Of course they can...

Lets see...again.

1) Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties

True.

2) Palestinians specifically target civilian casualties

Also true.

3) Israel has advanced military weapons capable of high accuracy strikes

They do.

4) Palestinians mostly use low accuracy weapons more likely to cause accidental collateral damage

Yes, though certainly intended to kill inocent citezens in non military civilian occupied metro areas.

5) Israel has killed many times more innocents than Palestinians have

And the 5th truth emerges. The Israeli's are having to retaliate against combatants who are cowardly, and fire rockets from apartment rooftops etc. As surgical as the Israelis try to be, when they are faced with that dilemma, well it is an unfortunate part of the game the Palestinians play. The IDF even warns when an attack is imminent, what more could they do...?

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Cowards!!

Come out on the streets and get slaughtered, you say?!

I would love for there to be a parallel universe where Mexico reclaimed control over their former northwest territories . Would you celebrate some different cowards then?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

No Brutus...

...Admission, cowards is probably the wrong word...but knowing the cost, what would you call them...(let me guess - something heroic...)

But when we are in a conversation about "why" the conflict is perpetual, aside from the greater issue, it is without reservation the responsibility of the Palestinians, and it will be until they cease being the ever present tormentors of the Israeli's.

That is the only point I have tried to have some commission on here, and for whatever reason you and particularly Tlaloc have been unwilling to concede that one fact.

How can we expect to delve deeper, if we can not even be honest with one another regarding the facts, and do so without being defensive and grasping at straws in order to protest the entire breadth of the subject matter.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

We're in the blue

So I'll attempt to end the discussion and suggest re-threading it somewhere else with one of my very favorite quotes by a man I admire very much:

We have been the cowards, lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, that's not cowardly.

-- William "Bill" Maher, Jr.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

LOL! I hate Maher! ;-)

I'd love to see Maher and Miller go at it one night! It could be a classic!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I remember that

 well.  

He was the only person in America who got fired immediately following 9/11 for having the audacity to tell the truth.

His show 'Politically Incorrect' was canceled post haste, or he  was 'dixiechicked' before it was cool.

 

………… parent

Oh geeze....

...LOL!

Another liberal martyr...in the Miss L Hall of Shame.

....amazing?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Any "starting point" will be completely arbitrary

...and the rockets where a direct result of actions of Israel.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Its really all about the right of return

A professor of mine who is a noted Israel-Palestine expert said that essentially the only point of contention is the right of return of Palestinian refugees to their lands before the '48 plan.

Israel won't allow it because if everyone returned, that'd make Jews a minority in Israel.  However, even if everyone was allowed to return, various polls have shown that most won't.  It might be hard to believe, but some Palestinians have put down roots in Jordan or the West Bank after over 60 years and don't really care to move back.

Really the ball is in Israel's court to do the right thing here.

I won't go as far as you in denouncing them.  Really, I think there is enough blame to go around for both the Israelis and the PLO/Hamas/etc.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

I think there is plenty of blame for the Palestinians

They've created horribly corrupt governments and supported butchers.  They have deliberately targetted Israeli children who are non-combatants by any measure.

I do not under any circumstances want to give them military aid.

At the same time for the reasons higlighted above I think we can and should be much more critical of the Israelis.  If we were bystanders I'd be fairly content to blame both sides but so long as we are active supporters of one side then that's the side that has to clean up its act.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Running onto the battlefield, puts you in the fight.

With respect to the first part of the analogy, I'd note that Israel is not trying to recapture land in Gaza. They already ceded the entire strip, and forcibly removed settlers to do so.

The land grab already happened 60 years ago.

 

The meat sheilds should be on the level of medics, and Hamas is committing war crimes for actively using them and Israel is committing war crimes for firing away if they think the outcry won't be that loud.

 

 

There's no way for Israel to distinguish between the willing meat shields, and the people who just happen to be near Hamas.  The willing participants are using propaganda as their weapon.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Two things

First, maybe I should have more clearly differentiated between using unwitting human shields and using volunteer human shields, but let me note that the accusations are that Hamas uses both kinds. Perhaps you'll want to clarify your comment to address those separately.

Second, Israel certainly hasn't shown as much forbearance as I would have wished, but they have indeed passed up military strikes to avoid killing or injuring civilians. Here's an example from 11/2006:

The Israeli air force often uses night-time helicopter missile strikes to target homes in Gaza which the Israelis say have been used to store weapons or plan attacks on Israel.

Very often the air force telephones a warning 10 minutes before the strike to give the occupants time to escape and keep down casualties, our correspondent says.

But on this occasion, the presence of so many people has made it impossible for the Israelis to carry though their planned air strike.

Hundreds of relatives and neighbours gathered at the house, where about 50 people reportedly climbed onto the roof. Others stood in the street chanting anti-Israeli and anti-American slogans.

 

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Wait

so passing up one target is supposed to forgive the literally dozens of times they have destroyed a whole building to kill one terrorist?

No. 

Israel is absolutely as guilty of indiscriminate slaughter as the worst terrorist organizations they oppose, the difference is that Israel has access to hundreds of millions of dollars of US weapons which is why the body count for the Israelis is so much higher.

If the Israelis were rally trying to avoid civilian casualties why would they have so many more than those terrorists who supposedly are aiming for civilians?  Particularly when they are using more advanced weapons.

The only rational explanation is that Israel is not in fact trying to avoid civilian casualties at all.  A supposition born out by many instances of Israeli troops callously murdering defenseless civilians.  A recent example:

The shooting of the Gazan teenager, Iman al Hams, has sparked the greatest outrage. Last month, an Israeli captain was charged with emptying his weapon into the schoolgirl to ensure that she was dead.

After initially being cleared of any wrongdoing, the captain came under fire from fellow soldiers who accused him of stepping over the line. Then a top Israeli news program aired tapes of the incident showing that the soldiers knew the suspicious figure was a girl who was "dying of fear."

In an audiotape of radio transmissions, jittery soldiers can be heard describing the figure as a little girl running for cover after they fired warning shots. Four minutes later, the soldiers opened fire on the girl. The captain then can be heard saying, "Confirm the kill.

"Anyone who moves in the area, even if he's 3 years old, must be killed," the captain told soldiers over his radio.

The captain went to check on the girl, fired two shots from his M-16 into her head, then emptied his weapon, according to the indictment.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1207-05.htm

So to be clear- a 13 year old girl was fired upon by a watch tower.  A warning shot at the girl would probably be excessive, but at least could be understandable given the possibility that the girl might be a suicide bomber.  But that's not what happened.  They shot to kill.  Even after the girl was fleeing.  They shot to kill.  And after she was down the noble captain walked up to short range and emptied his rifle into her body to make sure she was dead. 

Had this been a legitimate attempt to disable a believed attacker they would have tried to capture her once she was clearly down because there were no other threats and taking her alive means possibly learning who sent her.

Obviously this wasn't.  It was pure murder of a child because they could get away with it.  Because Palestinians are treated as animals by Israel.  And guess what?  The noble captain did indeed get away with it being cleared by an Israeli court of all charges.

Can you really condemn the family of that little girl if they are less than completely concerned with the safety of Israeli "civilians" (word in quotes since Israel requires all citizens to be part of the military in their youth).

Israel reaps what it has sown.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Doesn't necessarily follow

If the Israelis were rally trying to avoid civilian casualties why would they have so many more than those terrorists who supposedly are aiming for civilians?  Particularly when they are using more advanced weapons.

The only rational explanation is that Israel is not in fact trying to avoid civilian casualties at all.

If Israel weren't trying to avoid civilian casualties why would they make a routine practice of phoning ahead a warning prior to airstrikes? Certainly they ought to be more careful, but indiscriminate doesn't strike me as an accurate characterization.

In addition to having more advanced weapons Israel has very good security, so a terrorist group with the goal of killing Israeli civilians isn't necessarily going to be as effective as they'd like.

Also, some of the Palestinian civilian casualties result from Hamas and other militant groups deliberately basing attacks from within civilian areas and using voluntary or involuntary human shields, as mentioned in the parent post. Obviously Israel should do more to avoid collateral damage in such cases, but that doesn't erase Hamas' responsibility for putting Palestinians in the line of fire.

Of course I'm familiar with the well-known 2004 tragedy you mention above, but that and similar examples don't mean Israel doesn't care about civilian casualties anymore than the numerous cases of cops killing unarmed people within the US (and being acquitted) mean that the police don't care about killing civilians, or soldiers shooting unarmed Iraqis (and being acquitted) mean that the troops don't care about killing civilians. There are individual bad apples as well as institutional problems, but there is not a systematic widespread indifference to civilian casualties. That's different than deliberately targeting civilians as institutional policy, as terrorist organizations do.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Come on, Brendan

If Israel weren't trying to avoid civilian casualties why would they make a routine practice of phoning ahead a warning prior to airstrikes?

Since when does Israel phone ahead when they are targetting a terrorist?  Answer is they don't.  And with good reason.  The problem is they don't tend to use snipers they use helicopter gunships.  Sure they may phone ahead when their goal is to further destroy Palestinian infrastructure.

In addition to having more advanced weapons Israel has very good security, so a terrorist group with the goal of killing Israeli civilians isn't necessarily going to be as effective as they'd like.

That still doesn't make any sense.  Good security might explain few deaths on the part of Israelis but it doesn't explain the high number of deaths on the part of palestinian civilians.  There is no logical way that a more technologically advanced foe who is trying to avoid civilian casualties will end up killing VASTLY more civilians than an enemy who is supposedly deliberately targetting civilians.  Just can't happen. 

Look at it this way the number of murdered civilians will be T = A + I

total deaths equals accidental (collatoral) plus intentional.  Israel says that the number of Intentional for them is 0.  But with superior technology the rate of accidental will necessarily be much much smaller than the Palestinain terrorists.  nd yet somehow they end up causing orders of magnitude more civilian deaths. 

Someone is lying and a cursory inspection tells you who. Remember the most recent Lebanon war?  The events leading up to it were a series of kidnappings right?  Israel kidnapped a bunch of Palestinain civilians/politicians and the palestinains (and Hexbollah) kidnapped Israeli soldiers.  One side was displaying vastly more respect for non-combatants and it wasn't Israel.

Also, some of the Palestinian civilian casualties result from Hamas and other militant groups deliberately basing attacks from within civilian areas and using voluntary or involuntary human shields, as mentioned in the parent post.

Which would mean more if Israel was showing any restraint.  Again if they used snipers and they accidentally hit an innocent you can at least see an effort.  But when they level an apartment building to kill one terrorist then that argument is Bull.  When Israelis run bulldozers through occupied houses that's not Hamas using human shields it is Israel showing utter disregard for non-Israelis (ask Rachel Corrie).

Of course I'm familiar with the well-known 2004 tragedy you mention above, but that and similar examples don't mean Israel doesn't care about civilian casualties anymore than the numerous cases of cops killing unarmed people within the US (and being acquitted) mean that the police don't care about killing civilians, or soldiers shooting unarmed Iraqis (and being acquitted) mean that the troops don't care about killing civilians.

Oh Christ.  I thought the "Few bad apples" argument was thrown out in 2004.  Yes it is very true that the LA PD is full of assholes who are very willing to beat blacks to death.  It is very true that our Military forces are chock full of people who are willing to casually murder and rape Iraqis.  It is very true that Israel's military forces are butchers.

Those are not examples of a few bad apples.  They are frighteningly the norm as evinced by how these organizations produce the kind of guys who beat Rodney king, the guys who raped and murdered Abeer Qassim al-Janabi (and her family), and the guys who killed Iman al-Hams.  Not only produce them but defend them whenever possible.  Of the three incredibly extreme cases listed only one of them saw the perpatrators punished.  Two of those cases the assault was videotaped.

It is time to recognize that these organizations produce monsters.  Vile, inhuman monsters.  We need to either accept that or change the organizations.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Sorry, I am going to drop this conversation

There doesn't seem to be room for agreement here, and I simply don't find your arguments convincing.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Alright.

But tell me one thing, do you really buy th "few bad apples" argument?  I was honestly shocked to hear you give it countenance.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

It's both

I said that There are individual bad apples as well as institutional problems and I think that's accurate. 

For example, consider the charge that "cops are racist" -- there are institutional problems that prevent racist acts from being properly handled, but it also only takes a few bad apples to skew the statistics for an entire force.

Let's make up a hypothetical town composed of 80% white, 20% minority (black + hispanic), population 100,000, with a police force of 100 cops of which 5% (or 5) are racist. Suppose 10% of the population has an interaction with the police (e.g., traffic stop, or asked to turn down music, or whatever) and say 20% of this 10% (so 2% of the population) is actually arrested.

Assume for simplicity in this town that SES of whites and minorities is the same and that the rate of offending is the same. Suppose the non-racist cops interact/arrest consistent with population demographics, but the racist cops target 80% minorities and 20% whites (instead of 20/80) but their overall rate of interact/arrest is the same.

So, the 5 racist cops have 500 interactions, 100 arrests. This splits 80/20 so 400 minorities interact, 80 get arrested, while 100 whites interact, 20 get arrested. Then the 95 non-racist cops have 9500 interactions, 1900 arrests. This splits 20/80, so 1900 minorities interact, 380 get arrested, while 7600 whites interact, 1520 get arrested.

Of the 80,000 whites, 100+7600 = 7700 interacted, which is 9.63%, barely below the 10% that would be perfectly fair in this example. 1.93% get arrested, again close to the 2% desired. Of the 20,000 minorities, 400+1900= 2300 interacted, which is 11.5%, noticeably above the 10% that would be perfectly fair. The arrest rate is 2.3%.

In other words, the rate at which minorities interact/get arrested is 15.0% higher than would be fair, while the rate for whites is 3.75% lower than would be fair. That's significant bias, but it's all caused by 5 bad cops on a force of 100 in a town of 100,000.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

I guess our disagreement

then is whether a 5% blatantly racist police force is too much or if that's a few bad apples.  To my mind, and this is subjective of course, when you are talking 1 in 20 that's a condemnation of the force as a whole because you cannot reach that amount of being compromised without an implicit "this is okay" from everyine else.  It's not like one guy in a 1000 where maybe just nonbody noticed.  Somebody, probably most people, will realize that racists have a foothold and evidently they just don;t care.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

It is very true that our

It is very true that our Military forces are chock full of people who are willing to casually murder and rape Iraqis

If you'r going to make such a despicable charge against the majority of troops who fight for this country, you must have well documented cases of hundreds of thousands of casual murders and rapes in Iraq by our troops. Or do you just make false acusations against the people who sacrifice to serve a country which gives you so much for fun.

………… parent

Consider that these troops

were so commonly assaulting their fellow us soldiers that female soldiers were routinely told never to go anywhere alone at night on US bases.  Now if they were willing to behave that way toward their fellow soldiers under circumstances where being caught and punished was much greater how likely is it that they were the height of responsibility towards the helpless foreigners who had no legal recourse against them?

We had a number of high profile atrocities committed.  It requires a peculiar strength of denial to believe that they were isolated events (over and over again...).

 

PS no soldier who died in Iraq made a sacrifice for this country because this country's interests were in no way served by invading Iraq.  They died to serve the petty ambitions of Bush, the failed geopolitics of the neocons, and the profit margins of war profiteers like Halliburton and Blackwater.  If they had comported themselves better I would feel pity for their being used so callously, but they didn't.  It was Vietnam all over again.

PPS. I think this diary about the prevalence of US military rapes predates yur joing the site so I'll highlight it:

http://www.swordscrossed.org/node/1042

 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

You're right that war breeds rape

 it always has, and probably always will be untill the end of the world. However, I don't think the rape is anything widespread . You've got one article from Salon, not exactly a well known source, I really have no idea as to its credibility. And even what it says doesn't prove anything about widespread rape. A very small minority of rapists could make things very dangerous for the women soldiers at night. For the sake of arguement let's say a military base has 1,000 soldiers on it, and one in a thousand of our military men are rapists, on any given night a woman would be right to feel endangered because of that one rapist on the loose. It takes a very low level of risk to cause justified fear( for example it would be unadvised for a woman to go out running by herself here in Lincoln, NE, due to the risk of murder, rape or robbery, that does not however, mean in anyway that Lincoln is chalk full of rapists, murderers, thieves,) when what you fear is something a big as rape. So while war no doubt increases the amount of rape ( sort of an obvious consequence of having an isolated group of 20 something guys who are trained to gain their objectives by force and are deprived of sex) I don't see any evidence that our military is anywhere near chockfull of rapists. Maybe some figure like 1 in one thousand are, which would be a high enough figure to make the women afraid and need to protect themselves, however, it doesn't change the fact that 90+% of our fighting men and women are honorable and decent people, and that's the honorable thing to believe untill they are actually proven guilty.

Also whether or not you think Iraq is justified or not doesn't matter, the soldiers may or may not be inaverdently be pawns for corporate gain, but doesn't change why their doing it, and certainly its not for haliburton.

………… parent

By your logic every ghetto in America is chockfull of rapists

since women would certainly be advised against walking alone  at night in a city ghetto, so why aren't  you crying out against America's poor who obviously are rapists and kill at will, according to your logic? I think its because that doesn't fit your extreme left agenda of hate your country generally, and its military in specific.

………… parent

A few points

It is very accurate to say America's Ghettos are full of criminals.  I doub anyone would try to deny this given the extremely strong correlation between criminal activity and poor urban centers.  The debate is usually between whether poverty or race is the causal factor. 

In addition, and unlike an army base, the effect of a few criminals in a ghetto can be disproportionately large.  On a front line army base, where absolute security is a requirement, not an option, then it requires a pervasive culture of rape to allow any significant number to occur.  Otherwise the army simply catches those responsible.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

You're ignoring something

Specifically the response of the Army.  Notice what they did.  They did not try to stop the rape.  In fact so far they've gone out of their way to punish the women and protect the rapists.  Instead of trying to prevent rapes they warn women not to go out at night. 

The conceot that the army cannot maintain base security on a frontline military base is ridculous.  Obviously then the rape is something they are not concerned about.  They could stop it but they choose instead to blame the victim, to curtail their rights, and to destroy evidence, and to punish the victim if they continue to pursue justice.

In the diary I linked to there is a comment of mine that links to a NYT article and I believe the Saloin article links to another CSM article (although I'm not 100% on that).  Either way there's plenty more out there:

http://www.vermontguardian.com/dailies/022006/020806.shtml
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-harman31mar31,0,539...
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0319/p99s01-duts.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DE1DA133CF935A15751C0A...

 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Blaming the rape victim is an old hat

They were likely raped in a city and not on farm, if they didn't cry out it's their fault as some have said.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

The Biggest Liar

 Hank Paulson, the economy is doing fine, just months before the credit markets tanked.

 Second place goes to the ratings agencies, like Moody's and Standard and Poors, that lost all of their integrity by stating that such and such was rated Triple AAA, thereby pulling the wool over investors eyes, that their investments were safe.

 

…………

SC ADMIN'S...

It is probably time to through a "2009" up next to the SC logo/homepage header... ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

…………

Ha, right -- I'll mention that to Ender, thanks

He might have been trying to indicate the start date of the current version, I'm not sure.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

That BCS game is great! 7-6 at the half.

n/t

…………

Playoffs? We're talking about playoffs?

A playoff needs to be made, the best team doesn't always win. But when teams like USC miss out because their conference was down, even though they weren't. And teams like Texas misses out because they played in the wrong half of the Big 12 and the BCS won't allow that team to play in the Big 12 championship game, then there should be a playoff.

Florida's highest quality wins lost versus the Utes and the next best Florida win was versus a team that lost to a one loss team that was denied a chance to be in the title game.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

I second that motion!

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Rod Blagojevich is history....

The Illinois House has voted to impeach Gov. Rod Blagojevich.

http://www.politico.com

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

…………

About time (nt)

 

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

The latest example of Israeli forbearance

 

The death toll in the shelling of a family compound in Gaza rose to 30, the United Nations said in a report issued on Friday, as relief workers continued to comb through wreckage they had been denied access to for days after the attack.

The episode has ignited intense international criticism of the Israeli military for its failure to allow relief workers to reach the scene in a timely manner. On Friday, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navanethem Pillay, also pointed to the deaths in the family compound as cause for an independent investigation into possible war crimes by Israeli forces in Gaza.

 

Well hey the compound was probably used for launching rockets, right?  Or at the very least the IDF thought so right?

Members of the Samouni family said that they were rounded up late Sunday night by Israeli soldiers and ordered to gather for their own safety in a single dwelling in the impoverished Zeitoun district of Gaza city, a Hamas stronghold. The next morning, they said, the building was shelled.

Okay but the Palestinians are probably just lying, right?

In its report on Friday, the United Nations agency confirmed the family’s account, saying that 110 people had been forced into the house on Sunday. “The next day the house was shelled,” Allegra Pacheco, an agency spokeswoman, told BBC television, quoting unidentified witnesses.

Oh.  So the Israeli forces gathered up over a hundred civilians, including children under four years of age, then put them in a single place so they could more easily drop an artillery shell on them at once?

Oh it gets better.  After the attack the IDF refused to allow the Red cross to ener for days despite the fact that there were survivors.

Only on Wednesday [tlaloc note: the attack was sunday or early monday], the International Committee of the Red Cross said in a statement on Thursday, did Israel give Red Cross representatives permission to enter Zeitoun, and what the operatives found there chilled them. Four small children in the Samouni household, so weak they could not stand unassisted, cowered next to the corpses of slain mothers, the Red Cross said on Thursday. At least 12 corpses lay on mattresses and three more bodies were found in another house.

Hey it's okay despite the IDF specifically rounding up one family to shoot like fish in a barrel we get the usual BS dflection:

Israeli officials said that they were examining all the allegations, that they did not aim at civilians and that they were not certain that the source of fire that killed and wounded the United Nations drivers was Israeli.

“We do our utmost to avoid hitting civilians, and many times we don’t fire because we see civilians nearby,” said Maj. Avital Leibovich

I've seen Bond villains that were less over-the-top evil than this.  Quoted story here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/world/middleeast/10zeitoun.html

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Until the shelling stops the killings will continue.

Woe is me attitude and patriotism are a dangerous combination. Us versus them and they're the evil one's we're the good guys...

Might makes right.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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You are correct...

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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exploring emergence -- check it out!

I think that the theory of complex systems will be a major part of 21st century science.

If you aren't ready to read full-length books on this topic, you may want to check out this tutorial hosted by MIT: exploring emergence . The website has a embedded java applet that runs cellular automata , and allows the user to play around with those systems.

If you are interested in reading a book, I recommend:

  • At Home in the Universe by Stuart Kaufmann
  • Six Degrees by Duncan Watts

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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A GM bailout alternative

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2008/12/a_bailin_instead_of_...

The author suggests giving GM a bailout but as part of that make them change from auto manufcturing to making them oproduce mass transit vehicles.  The irony of course being that GM was one of the companies that colluded to destroy mass transit in america.  As the author points out:

In 1936, General Motors reorganized a subsidiary called National City Lines into a holding company funded by GM, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, Firestone Tire and two suppliers of bus-related products. The business plan was to convert electric transit systems in U.S. cities to GM bus systems.

Aided by federal policy, GM sold existing streetcars to other cities outside the country and extracted contracts from local transit agencies that prohibited the future purchase of any equipment that was powered by any fuel other than gasoline.

By 1949, National City Lines had been so successful that more than 100 electric rail systems in 45 cities had been converted. That same year a federal jury convicted GM and its partners of criminally conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses to transportation companies throughout the United States.

Each company was fined $5,000 and senior executives were fined the princely sum of $1.

Despite the conviction, GM persisted with its business plan until 1955, by which time 88 percent of the nation's electric streetcar network had disappeared. In 1936 there were 40,000 streetcars operating in the United States; by 1955 there were about 5,000.

It is probably better karma than GM deserves to get to make emnds for the sin of killing off mass transit (which has greatly hurt this country in a number of ways).  Still the symmetry of the situation amuses me.

Personally I was thinking an Ideal "make work" program to be part of he stimulus package would be to completely revamp the nations rail lines.  Currently the train is slow prone to breakdowns and terribly inefficient.  A lot of these problems however come from our completely antiquated rail system which does not isolate rails from their surroundings (as in other countries) and which tend to be many decades old. 

With new more reliable tracks a system of high speed modernized trains can be put in place to facilitate cargo and passenger transit while reducing oil usage, traffic acidents, and road congestion.  The original WPA built a fair amount of our current highway system.  Only fitting that the second one update our transportation system.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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OMG, its the motherload!

For all you AGW skeptics out there here is the mother load of all compilations of resources for skeptics: The Mother Load!

I particularly liked this picture of Michael Mann:

Michael Mann Tree Rings

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Sorry

They lost me when they called a carbon tax "socialism" in the first paragraph or so of that page.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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An excellent illustration

of the Damned if you do, damned if you don't axiom.

Al Gore puts out a book and a speech, both aimed at the non-scientist average-Joe what-does-prepaleozoic-mean? type, and of necessity for that audience, he glosses over and summarizes details.  He takes a very complex topic and in effect, issue a "Global Climate for Dummies, My Take" version.  The goal of which was to enlighten said non-scientific public about an important issue.

And now we have every other non-scientist hawking his own "...for Dummies, My Take" version.

I applaud Gore's hutzpah; he had to know this was going to be the outcome.   But somewhere in all this sound and fury there are newly interested, intelligent minds focusing on the problem and grasping the complexities involved. Unfortunately, I doubt if any of them are reflected on that linked site  :}

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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More Executions of Witches Caused By Global Warming

This is pretty funny.  It is one of several lists of things purported to be caused by global warming followed by this:

More Executions of Witches Caused By Global Warming

By JDZ

New York Times editorialist Nicholas D. Kristof (Joe and Valerie Wilson’s breakfast partner ) quotes a Berkeley professor who claims to have identified yet another.

As we pump out greenhouse gases, most of the discussion focuses on direct consequences like rising seas or aggravated hurricanes. But the indirect social and political impact in poor countries may be even more far-reaching, including upheavals and civil wars — and even more witches hacked to death with machetes.

In rural Tanzania, murders of elderly women accused of witchcraft are a very common form of homicide. And when Tanzania suffers unusual rainfall — either drought or flooding — witch-killings double, according to research by Edward Miguel , an economist at the University of California, Berkeley.

There is some spectacular irony implicit in this particular accusation. The enlightened portion of mankind knows that the persecution of alleged witches has always taken the form of the bringing of false accusations of responsibility for untoward events through mysterious and preternatural agency against the innocent by unethical and deluded people seeking to benefit personally by gaining prestige and/or power thereby.

Which is, of course, precisely what leftists do when they point to the modern industrial economy and the citizens of the developed countries and accuse them of altering the climate of the earth.

We don’t need to travel to Tanzania to observe witch-hunting in action. Plenty of that activity is conducted right here at universities like Berkeley and in the pages of the New York Times.

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Stupid Berkeley

I was really mad when a bunch of Berkeley professors hacked my grandma to death with machetes just because she left her lights on when she went out to play bingo.

On a more seriouse note, I would call his observation more of an observation than an accusation, but it does seem like he may have a little to much time on his hands.

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Not so far off....

Leave your lights on in Berkley...you may wish they had just hacked you to death and left it at that by the time the whole pathetic politically correct sideshow is over!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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pursuing your passion

Glad to see you are still after it.

 Although I'd say the hunting of witches is yours. You look for leftist witches, male of female, to burn under every rock.

 I think most people including rightists are interested in drinking clean water, and breathing clean air.

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Cont.

...reply from above

The concept of an entire civilization can help in a war effort, but only a small fraction are the designated killers and bullet sponges is only seems to increase the odds of war starting and one continuing. But there is no way of finding out those who are victims of circumstance, and those are effectively paramilitary forces.

Israel doesn't like Hamas firing at civilians, so Israel responds by dropping 500 lb bombs or popping in some Hellfire missiles in densely populated areas. The fact that Israel decides to not drop 2,000 lb bombs and 1,000 lb bombs or a hydrogen bomb isn't something Israel should pat themselves on the back for. Trying to avoid civilian casualties by dropping 500 lb bombs in urban areas is a non sequitur. Israel doesn't like Israeli civilians being harmed and wants the option that will lead to the least risk to Israel's military and reduced risk to non-Israeli civilians. Israel's actions show that non-Israeli civilians are less important than Israeli soldiers.

It is possible that the Hamas military members feel that Israel would kill them all given the chance. And they are doing everything they can to get others on their side. Or they could be trying to draw more of the current civilians or their Arab neighbors into the fighting. It should be clear to them that Israel will take the least risky to Israeli life tactical bombing approach to taking out their targets.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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