Thursday + Friday Open Thread

Caroline Kennedy has withdrawn her name from consideration for the vacant Senate seat in New York previously held by Hillary Rodham Clinton.

In a move that should make some conservatives smile (or frown, I suppose) Barack Obama was sworn-in a 2nd time by Chief Justice John Roberts in the oval office.  President Obama joins Calivn Coolidge and Chester A. Arthur as Presidents who took the oath a 2nd time due to "unusual" circumstances in the 1st.

 

Comments :

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Advice for conservatives

from David Horowitz Horowitz explains in his own words, why conservatives should celebrate a renewed sense of patriotism permeating our country, as many who once felt left behind are now enthusiastic about the future of America.

If conservatives act solely with knee jerk opposition to the renewed sense of inclusion and unity that was experienced on Jan 20th, then they are defeating much of what they claimed to have fought for over the years.

 I give Mr. Horowitz credit here for understanding the reality of the new paradigm shift and for recognizing that in a two party system there are times when being obstructionist just for the sake of it, is detrimental to our countries ideals. Good for him!

 

If it seems unfair that Barack Obama should be the source of a new patriotism -- albeit of untested mettle -- life is unfair. If the Obama future is uncertain and fraught with unseen perils, conservatives can deal with those perils as they come. What matters today is that many Americans have begun to join their country's cause, and conservatives should celebrate that fact and encourage it.

 What matters now is that the American dream with its enormous power to inspire at home and abroad is back in business.

 Conservative values -- individual responsibility, equal opportunity, racial and ethnic pluralism, and family -- are now symbolically embedded in the American White House. As a result, a great dimension of American power has been restored. Will these values be supported, strengthened, put into practice? It is up to us to see that they are.

…………

Meh.

The Democrats set the tone for how to treat a President from the opposing party during the Bush 43 years.  They have no right to complain if they receive the same in return.

We conservatives continue to love our country regardless of who is President.  That's the American way and has been since the beginning.  It is a shame that so many Democrats don't share this perspective.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Uh huh

Conservatives were ever so respectful of Clinton. Which is not to say that things didn't get worse under Bush. But then again, Bush in general was quite a bit less popular, for what that's worth. Of course, if conservatives want to continue to treat a President with a 70% popularity rating the same way as a President with a 30% popularity rating was treated, I'll be interested to see how that plays out for the conservative movement. :)

And please don't rehash the old "the left doesn't love America" crap. It's tired, wrong-headed, and just plain stupid. Criticizing what we think is wrong is an indication of, not a counterindication of, love of country.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

We already know.

SL - if conservatives want to continue to treat a President with a 70% popularity rating the same way as a President with a 30% popularity rating was treated, I'll be interested to see how that plays out for the conservative movement. :)

When liberals started bashing Bush he was up in the 70% range too.  What do you think drive those ratings down?  That drop then carried over into the elections for Congress.  Given this, Republicans already have a model for what to do, we just need to execute it.  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Nah

I assume you'll agree that liberals started bashing Bush from Day 1? He was at about 50% approval rating at the time. After that, he shot up to near 90%! So clearly this is NOT the model to follow. :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

I stand corrected ...

 on when liberals started bashing Bush.  I at least waited a day.  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Clinton clowned himself SL...

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I believe the correct term is "beclowned" :)

And you are pretty much making my point. The left thinks Bush deserved most of the criticism he got, and Clinton didn't. Different strokes and all. But there is no denying that both received a lot of criticism from the other side (and probably more than was justified on both counts).

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

True...

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I can accept that as a fair position.

 The question is, how does one break the cycle?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Obama

That's my hope anyway. It is one of the big reasons I supported him. I felt there was at least a chance that he would not only be competent, but willing to listen to conservative ideas (and use the good ones!). McCain may have been able to do the same from the other side, which was why I felt pretty good about our prospects after the primary, no matter what the final outcome. Well, at least until McCain picked Palin! :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

But didn't Bush do all these things?

In all of his speeches I don't think he ever trashed his critics.  He's said nice things about Clinton, Murtha, and others even when they were trashing him.

And don't even get me started on the "he listened to liberal ideas" meme.  He let Kennedy write the no child left behind bill, he spent domestically like a drunken sailor, yada, yada, yada...

I see where that got him.  Obama's gonna get the same treatment as far as I can tell.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Sure, except for the "competent" part. :)

n/t

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Try and understand

 that David's point here is a renewed sense of participation and enthusiasm for those who have felt left behind by the process (Supreme Court appoints President Bush).To poke sticks just for the sake of being obstructionist (what you are doing) is in not productive and comes across as 'whiney' and immature.

 If someone stepped on your tulips, (all Democrats) 8 years ago, or 30 years ago, do you still hold a grudge? If it makes you feel better you can bulldoze the whole tulip bed of said offender (all Democrats), because 'he did it first' but it just makes you look childish and accomplishes nothing.

 Horowitz says that it doesn't feel fair, but then again life isn't always fair, unless you want the GOP to be in the role of playing the perpetual victim!

………… parent

Let's be honest here.

I was being very congenial about the whole inauguration thing, being proud of having elected the first Black President in spite of the fact I didn't vote for him, defending his accomplishment at having gotten to where he his, forgiving the statements of the likes of Lowry and promoting good will on that front.

What did it get me?  In your face partisanship and more attacks on Bush.

So, what incentive do I have to continue to try and be congenial when even after the fact the hard core liberals are spewing just as much invective as they did before Obama was in office?

Letting by gones be by gones is a two way street, but what we are seeing here is an attempt to get one side to give up the fight without having to recipricate.  Is this not an honest assessment of the events of the past few days here on SC?  Why would we think the larger population would be any different?

As you may have recognized, I am a fight fire with fire kind of guy.  I'll put down my flame thrower when I stop getting burned.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Grace period

 of one day is a start. So cheers for that.

 I don't think I was in your face. Sorry if you felt that way.

  Remember this is the David Horowitz's advice, not mine. Just trying to help you conservatives out a little here. =)

  The Bush Presidency and what happened or did not happen on his watch has a lot to do with them minority position conservatives find themselves in, so evaluating his tenure might be a good place to start.

 I can accept that some folks think he was the best thing to happen since sliced bread, but I would argue mightily that they are wrong.

………… parent

You are too funny...

...dispensing conservative advice now are we... LOL!

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

David Horowitz is a conservative

isn't he? It's his advice, and I think it is reasonable, even though I am no fan of the man. He is at least being fair, something you seem to be unwilling or incapable of.

………… parent

Despite my current posts ...

I really don't have it out for Obama.  There are gonna be a few obviously things like Gitmo and Detainees that are obviously going to continue to be a flash point.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Well great then...if he's such a reasonable guy...

...which I am in total agreement with...

..you must find that quality in the rest of his body of work ...right?

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Reasonable people need not agree

You and I are reasonable and do not agree on everything.

Horowitz, despite his flaws, is a generally reasonable person.  He was able to consider carefully his previous political positions (he is a reformed Marxist) and reject them as being immoral, unworkable, or just plain wrong and came to new ideas**.  It is the mark of a good man to admit he was wrong and say so plainly; Horowitz has done this.

**I will say this: Horowitz is a leading neo-con and many prominent neo-cons come from the same post-left background -- Trotskyism.  My opinion on the matter is that these guys were so far to the left they jumped across the page and became far right.  There really isn't too much difference between old-guard Trotskyism and the views of of Horowitz, Wolfowitz, and other prominent neo-conservatives.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Ha.....!

  Nicely done. These guys were so far to the left they just kept going around the circle until left became right.

 Methinks there is a lot of truth there. Maybe they got a little dizzy, though, what with exporting the American revolution and instigating low level conflict for the sake of believing elections = freedom.

 The trait that displeases me about  David is that he is so full of himself.

………… parent

Well say that again please...

I know many of the early neo-con's were out of the Trotskyist movement, but to say;

"There really isn't too much difference between old-guard Trotskyism and the views of of Horowitz, Wolfowitz, and other prominent neo-conservatives."

...is a bit of a stretch wouldn't you agree?

A NeoCon's most distinguishing quality is their view on foreign policy, believing we should be active in asserting our national interest. I don't know much about Trotskyism, perhaps he advocated a simular approach, but at that point any comparison to a Horowitz and a Tratsky ends as far as I know.

Could you give me the similarities you see?

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Partially right, both do start with different words

Proletarian Revolution by Force.
Democratic Revolution by Force.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Gladly

Trotsky generally advocated the same foreign policy as the neo-conservatives do today, namely that democratic/republican countries should export their government by force if need be to the rest of the world.  However with Trotsky it was communism rather than democratic republicanism.  The same basic idea is the same though: there are countries that would do us harm and the best way to neutralize our enemies is to export our culture and system of government to them.

This is in comparison to the isolationism of Stalin's theory of "Socialism in One Country ".

I wouldn't call Christopher Hitchens a neo-conservative, but he agrees with them on foreign policy.  He was a Trotskyist for most (if not all) of the Cold War. 

Neo-conservatives also tend to be idealists, which is in stark opposition to traditional conservatism.  That is to say that they believe it is possible to rid the world of evil, given enough bullets.  Trotsky would have said the same thing.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

This is undeniably true.

 ... it is possible to rid the world of evil, given enough bullets.

Not that I advocate that we follow that course of action unnecessarily.  The evil can stick around as long as it leaves us alone.  Anyone who seeks to destroy us?  Send some bullets their way and replace them with our way of life.  Sounds good to me.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Yep, it's true

As long as "enough bullets" includes that one last bullet for the last person left on earth to shoot himself in the head.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

In the most extreme example ...

that would be correct.  But it need not go that far, obviously.

For example, if there were only two people left on earth and each thought of themselves as "good" and the other as "evil" then if A kills B it can be said that A has rid the world of "evil", no?  This is true by definition because all of the people left think of themselves as being "good" and no one else as being "evil".

By induction we can then scale this scenario up to any number of people on either side.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

A little dry.

Evil is in the eye of the beholder in that joke?

Killing all the people in a village, including children, except for the spy's family isn't evil in that joke? C'mon.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

This is true by definition.

Evil is in the eye of the beholder ...

There is no absolute scale of "good" and "evil".  Can you give me an example of an "absolute good" and/or an "absolute evil"?  In other words, something that cannot under any circumstances be denied as being "good" and/or "evil" as the case may be?

These terms are by definition determined consensually within any given society.  Each society determines the norms of behavior that will be considered acceptable and those that will not.  Those that are not are viewed as "evil".

Different societies can, quite obviously, set different standards in this area.  When the norms of those societies are in conflict, the respective groups can be easily mapped to our Person A and our Person B in my example above.  From that point on my previous discussion applies.

This is not really a joke, BTW.  It is merely a dispassionate exposition of how the world actually operates.  It is an unvarnished truth.  As I said above, I don't advocate taking direct action based only on these truths, but they are still truths none the less.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Too simplistic

When the norms of those societies are in conflict, the respective groups can be easily mapped to our Person A and our Person B in my example above.

No, I wouldn't say that. Certainly not "easily." This seems to be a very common point of contention between the two of us - groups of people can almost never be easily mapped to one individual viewpoint, IMHO. Even if you have a Society A which by and large views Society B as evil, and vice versa, there will be plenty of people in Society A that do not believe that to be true.

In your fictional extreme scenario, were Society A to set about destroying evil by exterminating Society B, there would be members of Society A who would be horrified by such an act, and perhaps start viewing Society A as the evil. So even if Society B ("all evil" in your world) were destroyed, we would be left with plenty of people who still think there is evil left in the world. Continuing your scenario, Society A would now have to turn upon itself to purge evil. Do I need to go on? I think the eventual outcome is obvious at this point - hence the need for that one final bullet.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Your analysis is correct (mostly).

In your fictional extreme scenario, were Society A to set about destroying evil by exterminating Society B, there would be members of Society A who would be horrified by such an act, and perhaps start viewing Society A as the evil. So even if Society B ("all evil" in your world) were destroyed, we would be left with plenty of people who still think there is evil left in the world. Continuing your scenario, Society A would now have to turn upon itself to purge evil.

This is essentially correct and easily covered by my example and discussion.

I think the eventual outcome is obvious at this point - hence the need for that one final bullet.

But this conclusion is faulty, which is my whole point with the Person A/Person B scenario.  It certainly MAY come down to that, but your conclusion demands that it WILL come down to that and therein lies your faulty logic.

Also, once we are down to a single person there is no need for them to kill themselves to purge any evil, is there?  So technically speaking, once we have arrived at the last man standing the whole process (presumably) terminates WITHOUT the need for that final bullet.  Thus, I believe that your logic at a minimum has an "off by one" error.  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Off by one

Perhaps, but I think that one last person would look around and think "Oh my gosh, what have I done?" I suspect he (or she) might be a bit conflicted internally about whether or not what was done was actually good, not evil. ;)

And actually, I do believe that given your initial premise of destroying ALL evil, it would inevitiably lead to just one person. Unless the sane members of society took it upon themselves to incarcerate or otherwise incapacitate the whackos who were trying to kill all the evildoers. In which case, your scenario preemptively ends without the complete purge of evil.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

While that MAY happen ...

Unless the sane members of society took it upon themselves to incarcerate or otherwise incapacitate the whackos who were trying to kill all the evildoers. In which case, your scenario preemptively ends without the complete purge of evil.

the fact that it was premptively halted does NOT alter the unvarnished truth that it COULD be done which is all I claimed.  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

PS

No, I wouldn't say that. Certainly not "easily." This seems to be a very common point of contention between the two of us - groups of people can almost never be easily mapped to one individual viewpoint, IMHO. Even if you have a Society A which by and large views Society B as evil, and vice versa, there will be plenty of people in Society A that do not believe that to be true.

Mapping in this case was meant to refer to the process associated with my inductive argument, not the concept of using a single individual as an exemplar for a group.  You obviously understood my meaning based on your analysis and the implications thereof.  In this context my statement meant nothing more than that.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Ok Stinerman, so in as far as FP goes...

...we are able to draw a parallel between the Trotskyists and Horowitz, but then isn't it true that - by and large - that's where any similarities cease to exist.

And therefore to infer that;

"There really isn't too much difference between old-guard Trotskyism and the views of of Horowitz..."

...is not accurate considering only this one, perhaps a few policies in common amongst the breadth and complexity of both systems of thought.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Hallelujah and Amen.

Horowitz, despite his flaws, is a generally reasonable person.  He was able to consider carefully his previous political positions (he is a reformed Marxist) and reject them as being immoral, unworkable, or just plain wrong and came to new ideas**.  It is the mark of a good man to admit he was wrong and say so plainly; Horowitz has done this.

You sell it, brother, for he has seen the one true light and he is saved!

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Sorry.

 The in your face comment was not directed at you.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

How about this

So, what incentive do I have to continue to try and be congenial when even after the fact the hard core liberals are spewing just as much invective as they did before Obama was in office?

How about "conservatives hold themselves to a higher standard than liberals"?  It always worked for me in the other direction.  However I still don't self-identify as a liberal so I wouldn't know how it'd work for me. :-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Meh back.

"We conservatives continue to love our country"

Yeah... just like my next door neighbor... who had a giant flag on his front porch for every day since 9/11.

He took it down Tuesday morning.

I have talked to many people with similar stories.

I work at a D.o.D. lab... and conservatives outnumber liberals here by more than 3-to-1 easy... and similar things have been happening the past few days.   One guy hung an upside-down flag outside his office.  Another guy threw his commemorative "Operation Iraqi Freedom" mug away.

Do those conservatives "continue to love their country"?

Rush Limbaugh said on Tuesday... "I want Obama to fail."   Does he love his country?  (actually.. has he ever?)

 

Your statement rings hollow, GR.   I have run into MANY conservatives lately that only love their country when the President has an "R" next to his name.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

………… parent

And you are just making my point above.

 Here .

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Another cheap shot...

Conservatives are indeed proud of the inclusion aspect of what BO represents, there is no doubt about it.

And to the extent that he puts into practice the words he has used with regard to individual responsibility - truely equal opportunity - and family values, there will be nothing but accolades from the right side of the isle.

But that is a far cry from from signing off of what  BO stands for as a whole.

And what is this ethnic pluralism nonsense? Racial diversity, and acceptance, ok. If however it is some social engineering "objective" ...not.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Stinerman, your link doesn't go where you want.

But I had heard that Kennedy withdrew her name "for personal reasons."  We all know that these are the liberal code words for "I was forced out against my will but I have decided to fall on the sword for the good of the party."

This just serves as another example on the mounting pile of good women that the Democrat party has decided aren't good enough to hold powerful positions within their party.  I guess that they should just stay at home with the kids.  Barefoot and pregnant.

There is rampant sexism throughout the entire organization, and if it continues unchecked the Republicans will ultimately reap the benefits.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

…………

I expect you to take this back

...if Fran Drescher gets the post. :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

LOL

Actually I would absolutely LOVE it if Fran got the post!  That would be an absolute gas.  Can you imagine her making a speech on the floor of the Senate?

If she gets the post I will gladly retract this statement.  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Alas, no Fran

But it is a woman, and one that you might be relatively OK with, being pro-gun and all.

So I guess that puts female Democratic Senators at 13 out of 57 (23%) and female Republican Senators at 4 out of 41 (10%). (Yes, I'm assuming a Senator Franken, because it amuses me to do so, and it doesn't change the final percentages.)

Which party has the sexism problem again? :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Yes, I saw that.

But I only offered to retract my statement for Fran.  This is because if she had actually made the cut it would have been clear evidence of a lack of sexism, for only a group actively promoting women would have put her into that position!  :)

Which party has the sexism problem again? :)

The Democrats, of course.  The number of Senate seats is only one measure.  We need to take the entire picture into account.  :)

They do get credit for picking a women though.  So in this case they helped you out.  Actually, given that I now know that the Democrats fear my legal prowess they may have made a switch at the last moment.  My previous claim was made before they announced their decision, after all.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Link

Yeah.

The site code is still converting & into "&" in the links.

Nothing I can do about that except try to use links w/o the ampersand.  I'll keep that in mind.

Thanks for the catch, GR.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

So Dick Morris predicts Socialism is on the march..

Which means I feel better that we'll be nowhere near socialism anytime soon. Read his column , and assume the opposite.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

…………

Quite true...

Just about everything Dick Morris ever predicts goes exactly 180 degrees the opposite.

I remember when the bailout crisis hit and McCain "suspended his campaign" to head to Washington, Morris predicted this would be the turning point that would vault McCain into a 7 or 8 point lead in the polls.

Before that, after Hillary won Texas and Ohio, Morris predicted this would begin the "death spiral" of the Obama campaign.

If Morris is predicting socialism, then there won't be any socialism any time soon.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

………… parent

Actually, with the current administration ...

 it has already arrived.  Just give them time.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

It would have...

...had he done the right thing and opposed it!

And because he didn't, it was the turning point!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Frosting on the cake

 This is so exciting! I love it.

 Hillary Clinton greets the staff at the State Department to rousing and repeated applause. Sweet!

  The moral at the State Department has been at rock bottom, due to infighting and conflict on priorities and methods. Hillary will welcome all ideas for development and diplomacy, she said to repeated applause. 

 President Obama will make a visit to the State Department later on today, to reiterate confidence in our new Secretary of State for the common vision of more openness and diplomacy.

…………

Heh.

ML - The moral at the State Department has been at rock bottom, due to infighting and conflict on priorities and methods.

In other words, the rank and file at the State Department are just a bunch of embedded liberals as we have long suspected.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Obama Administration is Already Shredding the Constitution.

That didn't take long.

On his second day in office, Obama has already signed executives orders endorsing policies that liberals have long claimed constitute the "shredding of the Constitution."  Will we hear continued outcries about these very same policy decisions now that a Democrat has made them?  Don't hold your breath.

Obama Issues Directives on Detainees, Interrogation, Guantanamo

 

According to sources in the law enforcement community, the executive order on interrogation does not declare "enhanced interrogation techniques" to be torture; the order is silent on that.

"This allows for a lot of flexibility, a lot of wiggle room," said one source.

While the administration has insisted on one interrogation standard, one source says they are thinking about assembling a group within the next 60 days to make recommendations on a set of separate techniques for the intelligence community to use.

White House counsel Greg Craig acknowledged late Wednesday that the administration will have to establish a panel to make recommendations to address intelligence community concerns.

[...]

Administration officials indicated they do not want detainees outside of the U.S. to get habeas corpus rights or rights similar to those enjoyed by U.S. citizens. The Obama administration will likely go to Congress for what it wants to accomplish.

The order directs all information regarding the remaining 245 detainees be consolidated in a central repository and will create a panel to review those cases and split the detainees up into three categories.

Category one is comprised of the 70 detainees that President Bush sought to repatriate but couldn't because no country wants them, and they would likely be tortured at home. The Obama administration believes they can get foreign countries to take them.

Category two is the group of detainees that can be prosecuted under war crimes in Article III courts federal courts designed to address cases that involve citizens of other countries or tried in modified military commissions. This includes Sept. 11 planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammad. The administration would seek a stay on habeas petitions in Article III courts and continuances on the ongoing military commissions.

Category three is made up of detainees who can't be released and can't be tried. The thought is to create a panel, which could turn into a national security court, to handle these future highest-value detainees to determine prospective policy since terrorists like Al Qaeda chief Usama bin Laden will continue to be caught.

So, there you have it.  Obama has suspended Habeas Corpus protections for those currently at Gitmo as well as future terrorists who might be caught.  A key plank in the claim that Bush shredded the Constitution.

While he has for the moment restricted interrogation techniques to the Army Field Manual as liberals have demanded, he has plans to come up with his own list of "alternate interrogation techniques" for use on these people.  Liberal-speak translation: he intends to torture these people if he has to in order to get information out of them.  Despite the liberal rhetoric that torture doesn't work.

He knows that he is currently holding 70 people who have been cleared for release but he continues to hold them none-the-less and for exactly the same reasons as Bush did.  It is certainly within his power to release them but he simply chooses not to do so.  He is now 100% invested and complicit in their on-going detention, without any plans to prosecute them ever.

He is also making plans to create a category of detainees who "can't be released and can't be tried".  In other words, he plans to hold them indefinitely, without trial, and without habeas corpus protections.

So my liberal friends, Obama is different from Bush how?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

…………

Baby steps

Looks to me like this would be better described as taping together some pieces of the already shredded Constitution, and leaving some still in tatters to be addressed later. If they are addressed later in a disagreeable manner, or if they are left unaddressed for a significant length of time, then I can get upset.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

He he.

Fair enough.  Time and the reality of who is being detained and why is on my side.

Hey, I might have to start sock puppeting at DKOS again !  It's a complete high five and white wash over there.  Someone here with an active DKOS account should link to my comment above and drive some traffic towards SC.

:) 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Robert 'Douche Bag" Reich - gets the ball rolling...

Keep stimulus money away from skilled workers and “white male contractors”

RR wrote in his blog;

The stimulus plan will create jobs repairing and upgrading the nation’s roads, bridges, ports, levees, water and sewage system, public-transit systems, electricity grid, and schools. And it will kick-start alternative, non-fossil based sources of energy (wind, solar, geothermal, and so on); new health-care information systems; and universal broadband Internet access.

It’s a two-fer: lots of new jobs, and investments in the nation’s future productivity.

But if there aren’t enough skilled professionals to do the jobs involving new technologies, the stimulus will just increase the wages of the professionals who already have the right skills rather than generate many new jobs in these fields. And if construction jobs go mainly to white males who already dominate the construction trades, many people who need jobs the most — women, minorities, and the poor and long-term unemployed — will be shut out.

What to do? There’s no easy solution to either dilemma…

People can be trained relatively quickly for these sorts of jobs, as well as many infrastructure j0bs generated by the stimulus — installing new pipes for water and sewage systems, repairing and upgrading equipment, basic construction — but contractors have to be nudged both to provide the training and to do the hiring.

I’d suggest that all contracts entered into with stimulus funds require contractors to provide at least 20 percent of jobs to the long-term unemployed and to people with incomes at or below 200 percent of the federal poverty level. And at least 2 percent of project funds should be allocated to such training. In addition, advantage should be taken of buildings trades apprenticeships — wich must be fully available to women and minorities.

 

Boy, those are going to be some well built bridges and stuff...YIKES!

Here Rangel and Reich exchange niceities about how fun it will be to re institute quotas and racial profiling...

 

In case you missed it;

REICH: …”I am concerned, as I’m sure many of you are, that these jobs not simply go to high-skilled people who are already professionals or to white male construction workers…I have nothing against white male construction workers, I’m just saying there are other people who have needs as well.”

RANGEL: And one thing you can depend on, you don’t have to be worried about what the middle-class is gonna do. Things are so bad. They have to put food on their tables. Clothes for their kids. Get them in school. I think this is a tremendous opportunity for a stronger America.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

…………

George 'Douche Bag' Bush dropped it

 the ball that is in the first place.

 Just using the acclaimed "GoRight Method" of fighting fire with fire. It's low rent and low class to call Reich a douche bag.

  It's also low rent to call #43 a douche bag. It sounds pretty disrespectful doesn't it.

 

………… parent

Yea, RW.

ML - It's low rent and low class to call Reich a douche bag.

Stop giving douche bags a bad name.  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Miss L - Why do you correct my PC-ness...

...and avoid the whole absurdity of Reich's behavior in the post itself...

It's typical, and telling!

PS - Having heard liberals call GW every name in the book for 8 years has numbed me to it, seems to strike a cord with you though when the shoe is on the other foot...LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

What is this animal

 you keep referring to....... 'liberals'? You use this 'liberal' animal as an excuse and to excuse all reason. 

 I think you have a disease, Liberal Derangment Syndrome. It is rendering you blind, deaf and dumb. Worse it seems to be sapping your intelligence. Pity.

 

………… parent

(Shakes head) Oh Miss L...

And what does THAT have to do with Robert "DB" Reich's vexatious comments...again?

And just for your edification;

To experience a form of derangement syndrome, one must avow the antecedent...

Therefore it would be literally and figuratively impossible for me to have "Liberal" derangement syndrome, as I, as you so well know, am not a liberal.

Now, I know you read that term somewhere recently, evidently thought it sounded cool, and you have had to throw it in several of your posts the last week or so, but please, do yourself a favor, try your best to at least use it in it's correct context, otherwise Miss L, people might think that you are suffering from it, and that it is sapping your intelligence.

LOL!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Huh

I guess everyone that has been accused of Bush Derangement Syndrome doesn't have it, unless they happen to be a bush?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Yes...Bush "derangement syndrome"...

Would be a reference to the fact that the wheels were coming off the Bush presidency.

It is true, Krauthammer did accuse people like Miss L of sufering from a "Bush Derangement Syndrome", but that was contrary to the way the term has always been used. At least in as far as I know.

Remember in the primaries, take Kerry for instance, it was often said his POTUS run suffered from derangement syndrome, when the swift boat stuff started breaking, the same with Romney, his candidacy suffered from derangement syndrome.

But I will acquiesce on this, I suppose it could be seen either way considering the Krauthammer precedent.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I can't get worked up about this

Does anyone really think that a long-term unemployed person is going to voluntarily go for a job involving unskilled but tough, dirty, manual labor?

If this were true, they'd already be working.

………… parent

But even to have the ...dare I say it...ok I will....audacity...

...to say something like that...is...well it's infuriating is what it is...

I mean is this what Obama is supposed to stand for?

If so count me out.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

What's your plan?

Do you have a constructive suggestion that would actually put people to work?

 People need jobs. If you hadn't noticed we have lost a half a million jobs per month for the last four months.

 Demand for products is declining. And your solution for long term sustainable recovery is........?

 

………… parent

Hmm...for long term sustainable recovery...maybe...

 

These things would save us a Trillion bucks, and right the economic ship...

 

Abolish The Tax Code - Implement the Fair Tax (National Consumption Tax).

Lower Corporate Tax Rates - Make America's businesses competitive with the rest of the world. (Until new tax code is implemented)

Health Care - Improve quality and enhance transparency by introducing the same competitive forces that drive innovation in other sectors of the economy.

Domestic Energy - Pursue our domestic sources of energy, drawing from our broad and diverse base of options, including opening ANWR to oil and natural gas development.

Promote Education - Emphasize math and science, charter schools and public-private partnerships.

Improve Worker Training - Consolidate all federal programs in this area, and focus on giving workers the skills they need to succeed in a global economy.

Nuclear Technology - Accelerate construction of new nuclear power plants.

Reform Our Immigration Laws - End illegal immigration, but encourage legal immigration and recruit highly-skilled workers and welcome the best and the brightest.

Middle Class Savings - Eliminate all taxes on interest, dividends, and capital gains for anyone with an adjusted gross income under $200,000.

Make The Bush Tax Cuts Permanent - Extend them until the new code tax is implemented.

Eliminate The Death Tax - Allow families to pass on their hard-earned savings, and assets without the federal government taking a cut.

Efficientcy In Medicaid - Give states flexibility to spend their Medicaid dollars in whatever way they find most efficient and effective.

Regulatory Relief - Eliminate cumbersome and unnecessary regulations and bureaucracies.

Energy Security - Shift federal priorities to emphasize issues of energy security, particularly at the Department of Energy.

National Tort Reform - End frivolous lawsuits.

Transportation Infrastructure - Invest in infrastructure projects critical to the national economy.

Spending Limits - End discretionary appropriations that increase spending by more than inflation minus one percent.

Invest In Research - Dramatically increase federal spending on research, development, and demonstration projects that hold promise for diversifying our energy supply and increasing our energy efficiency.

Conduct Review - Examine and evaluate all federal spending programs to identify waste, duplication, and inefficiencies that can be eliminated.

Reform Entitlements - In a forthright and bipartisan way, address the impending budget crisis caused by increasing entitlement spending.

Line-Item Veto - Give the President the same power held by most state governors.

Presidential Flexibility - Authorize the Executive Branch to spend less than Congress appropriates for a given project or agency, up to 25%.

Institute Super majority Requirement - Impose a three-fifths (60%) super majority to pass any law that would raise taxes.

Make Health Care Tax Deductible - Level the playing field by making all health care expenses tax deductible. (Until the new tax code is implemented)

Reform Medical - Use some of the money currently spent on providing expensive "free care" for the uninsured at emergency rooms and instead help the truly needy buy private insurance.

Medical Liability System - Institute federal caps on non-economic and punitive damage awards to eliminate frivolous lawsuits and bring an end to the practice of defensive medicine.

...Problem Solved.

At least in as much as Government can possibly solve it.

Think what you want of him, but I find his economic plan goes to the very heart of our problem, and addresses the many fundamental problems with government, while doing the very things all agree must be done in terms of stimulus.

Mitt Romney suggested many of these things two years ago.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

That's a well thought out list

Most of it is sensible and reasonable.

 The tax code is insanely complicated, and there are so many loopholes that have been written into it, as some sort of 'incentive', I am not sure even a good tax lawyer understands the whole system. I would imagine that some corporations and some in the upper income levels would balk at changing a code that favors their own interests.

 Your prescription could work well  for 'normal' times. The economic downturn we are in, however is not normal times.

 IF job losses continue at a half a million every month, that puts more pressure on state budgets for unemployment insurance, etc.,  at a time when state revenues are decreasing.

 If job losses continue at the current rate, in one years time that would be six million jobs lost. Some of these folks will likely be unable to make their mortgage payments, thus furthering a downward spiral, of loss of state tax revenue due to loss of property tax monies. This in turn puts stress on the local businesses and schools, forcing larger class rooms and teacher layoffs.

 This is all happening at a time when global trade is slowing, putting more stress on businesses. Also concurrent is the unwillingness of banks to lend to each other, which is creating even more stress on businesses who rely on banks to fund their payroll and inventory.

 So how would you deal with the problem of job losses that is reaching critical mass with the unpleasant prospect of bankrupting state governments at the very time they are being asked to spend more on unemployment, at a time when demand for goods around the world is slowing dramatically, and many of the big business banks are tightening their lending on a global scale.

 What I think you fail to recognize is that the economic problems we are facing are nothing like normal times.

………… parent

Of course I realize these are not normal times...

I think this plan accomplishes more efficiently, and produces better results in it's net effect than planting grass in the mall, of redecorating the state department.

Building new nuclear facilities, transportation infrastructure, developing domestic energy, lowering business taxes, investment in reasearch and development, all those things go to creating jobs, certainly this plan is more responsible, and addresses the economic problems more than $300 million for rubbers as is in the democrats plan.

Actually everything in the plan will rev up the economy, simplify government, and kickstart the whole country and its economic engine.

Let me ask you;  What would you say that a) we need that is not in this plan, and, b) what is in the plan we do not need?

What are your big ideas that address these extraordinary times and create jobs that is not included in my list?

Thanks for the sane thoughtful response by the way, refreshing. ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Oops.....

There is a small rub..... where is this 'money' to build the things you have highlighted in your plan going to come from. That's the problem.

………… parent

You're asking ME that?

We would have to do what Obama is doing...but to a far less extent. That's why the emphasis on making government more efficient and control spending.

Obama is growing government at any cost, has a stimulus full of unproductive appropriations, and spending a trillion dollars we don't have, then pinning it on our grand kids.

In contrast, this plan is about reforming government, streamlining it and making it as efficient as possible, reducing its size, and controlling spending, and in a responsible way, building infrastructure, nuclear, etc.

That's funny you ask me that Q?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Too bad

 that you don't understand that were really are in an economic crises. Really. No kidding.

It might not be affecting you now if another half million folks lose their jobs every month, but it will.

Obama did not chose this, nor create it, he just has to deal with it.

Creating jobs gets TOP priority. You do understand the consequences to our economy of having six million people out of work while we wait for your plan of reforming government. 

You again say building infrastructure, while not understanding that there is NO money, no loans, no bonds, to build it with. The state governments are all facing budget shortfalls. Private companies are scaling back spending. 

 Your plan is unrealistic because we just don't have the time to wait. Unless of course you are into homelessness and tent cities. ;0

 

 

………… parent

Back up in the cuckoo nest are we...?

Putting aside for now your clear abundabce ecomomic acumen...giggle...

Please, in the spirit of coming to some beneficial outcome, simply answer my previous Q;

Q: What would you say that a) we need that is not in this plan, and, b) what is in the plan we do not need?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

We need an

 infusion of cash to create jobs and grow the economy.

We don't need hyperbole about cutting spending, or that spending=socialism,  at a time when we need an emergency invest in our country.

 We can either lead the way out of this, for the rest of the world to follow, or shrink into a global depression.

 If you think we are a super power ask yourself why everyone is tip toeing around offending China, by not pressing them on their currency manipulation, which is having a direct impact on the US.

………… parent

Who knows?

 If people're desperate enough, they might well go for pretty much anything, if the economy totally tanks.

 Thanks, G. W. Bush.  You sail out into the sunset and back to your retirement ranch in a sea of farewells and hugs, but you're getting  away with murder, both literally and figuratively speaking.  God.  Dubya--you stuck the last nails into already-bad situations here in this country, making them much worse, and you're getting away with it.

George Bush really should be prosecuted for what he did, and, President Obama, if you're listening in, YOU don't have much backbone either if you don't start an investigation and prosecution of Bush, which shouldn't be allowed to slide.

And to everybody here on SwordsCrossed, who all tend to rally to President Obama at all costs and get their panties in a wad everytime he's criticized and attribute criticixm of President Obama to racism..that's pure bullshit!  Nobody's infallible, and nobody's above reproach!

 

 

 

 

………… parent

Nobody's infallible

 and nobody's above reproach!

Does that include you?

………… parent

Hey listen, Honeybabe.

 I never SAID that I was infallible or above reproach.  However, YOU'RE the one who seems to think that you're perfect, infallilble and above reproach.  Your hifalutin', highhanded, condescending, nasty attitude really sucks, if you want to know the truth.  Just sayin'.

………… parent

Personal insult

 

 Your wrath towards me personally is duly noted. I also note that you have been trying to provoke me with personal and ugly insults for some time now. 

 I feel your personal attacks are unwarranted and unnecessary.

 I don't want to feed this fire, because it is very difficult for me not to respond in kind, so I will no longer be responding to your posts.

 

  

………… parent

Well, missliberties;

 Now you know how it feels when people are mean, nasty and ugly?  Good! I  have just given you a taste of your own medicine, which is PRECISELY what you need!  Enough said.

………… parent

Obama, unlike his predecessors didn't reverse the contraception

language today.  I thought he would have.  You see on the anniversary of Roe vs Wade Clinton had reversed the Mexico City language (Executive Order) issued by Reagan and allowed funds to go to Family Planning organizations around the world that also mentioned/referred out for abortion services.  Dubya in turn re-instated the Mexico City protocol on his first Roe v Wade anniversary.

I'm not sure if Obama is trying to be respectful or what.  I have no doubt he will issue the order eliminating the funding restrictions, but it didn't happen today.

That is something I would expect the conservatives here to be somewhat happy about (that he didn't do it today, not that he will inevitably do it).

…………

A day late

Happened today .

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Oh nice - and he's getting $300 Million in condoms...

...hidden in the stimulus package...how refreshing having Obama around.

He also bombed Pakistan and killed innocent children...

Is trying to ban outside photographers from the White House press room...

Is unwilling to discuss military operations with the press corps...

"Welcome to my new boss...Same as the old boss..."

BTW...Prediction...

Robert Gibbs is gong to make Scott McClellan look like Aristotle.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Birth control and abortion rights are necessary.

 The world's overpopulated as it is.  

It's agreed that we shouldn't be in Pakistan or Afghanistan, though.  We should pull out.

 

………… parent

Was this an intentional pun? :)

"The world's overpopulated as it is... We should pull out."

Maybe not the most effective form of birth control, but it's better than nothing! :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

lol...I of course agree the world needs contraception...

...just not in a economic resuscitation effort...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Well logically

during hard economic times people do not stop having sex (in fact there seems to be no condition under which people stop having sex in general) but the use of birth control will naturally decline as it is not necessary (in the sense of keeping you alive, i.e. food and shelter) and generally isn't covered by insurance.

Given that having more kids tends to correlate strongly with poerty (as well as abuse, drug abuse, etc) it makes sense to subsidize reproductive healthas a way to keep a bad situation from getting worse.  Ideally we'd be talking about vasectomies more than condoms but whatever you can get people to use is better than nothing.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Funny how I could not find one surrogate on MTP, FTN, or any of the Sunday talk shows who came on and defended the Democrat's economic plan of spending 1/3rd of a billion bucks on birth control.

Yet here you are...

Dude?

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I guess we're not good enough for you?

In order to even address an argument, it has to come from an official surrogate?

It actually sounds like you might not have a problem with the proposal, you just don't think it should be part of the stimulus package. That's a reasonable position. However, as Obama has said , this isn't just a stimulus package.

“This is not just a short-term program to boost employment,” Mr. Obama said. “It’s one that will invest in our most important priorities like energy and education, health care and a new infrastructure that are necessary to keep us strong and competitive in the 21st century.”

 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Here's a question, though:

Why does President Obama seem to advocate the use of "clean" coal and ethanol as alternatives to energy?  Coal will only produce more acid rain and pollution, which will harm people's health on the long run, and ethanol will pollute even more.   

………… parent

Those issues

...are ones on which I happen to disagree with Obama, so you won't get any defense of them from me! :)

I'd guess his support of clean coal has to do with the fact that the US has huge supplies of coal. If such a thing as "clean coal" actually existed, it would certainly be a boon to our economy. And his support of ethanol probably comes from having been the senator from a midwest state that grows corn.

Either one of these technologies conceivably could work out (cellulosic ethanol in particular seems like it could have promise), but I'm not personally convinced that they will.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

There lies the rub, Spiritual Lefty.

 Coal and ethanol, whether "clean" or not, are among the most polluting, from what I understand.  There's no such thing as  "Clean" coal.  That term's just an oxymoron.  Pollution's a big enough problem as it is.  Why add to it and make it worse?

………… parent

There lies the rub, Spiritual Lefty.

 Coal and ethanol, whether "clean" or not, are among the most polluting, from what I understand.  There's no such thing as  "Clean" coal.  That term's just an oxymoron.  Pollution's a big enough problem as it is.  Why add to it and make it worse?

………… parent

That raises even more difficut and troublesome questions...

Look...This is a colossal scam on the American people, and I think... you know that.

Nancy sure does. She basically told American fiscal conservatives to shut up and eat it, because they won the election, and if they want to F up the country, they can and will.

Obama sure does, when asked by Eric Cantor about the package and spending, he was not-so-presidentialy interrupted by Barry with, "I won".

So much for post partisan politics?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I respectfully object

I think you have been listening too often to Republican propoganda, because your entire premise here seems to be that Democrats are the enemy of America. That their intention is in fact to "F up the country."

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

The democrats are the ones shoving this...

...unconscionable stimulus package, that is too big, inappropriately allocated, and doomed for failure, down our throats.

Do you realize the consequences when this Democratic fiasco flops? Think about that certain eventuality for a minute.

It makes me shudder.

So who should I be objecting about if not the ones perpetrating the whole thing, the Democrats? Believe me, all my representitives no exactly how I feel! Republican and Demorat.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I realize the consequences

if it flops. Do you think Democrats do not? There is rarely such a beast as a certain eventuality, and this is defintitely not one.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Then why do you not take it more seriously?

Why do you not object when you see your own party being so irresponsible, why do you not say anything critical when we are on the verge of pissing away a trillion dollars?

Why do you just join in with giddy democrats rationalizing their way right down the road to national bankruptcy, and the ensuing economic depression.

If it is not a certainty SL, the way the democrats are responding to this, makes it at least very likely!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

If democrats like it, it must be bad?

I believe I have already explained why I feel that the particular part of the recovery package that you have been so vociferously objecting to is in fact a good idea. It saves money. If you are seriously objecting to the ultimate cost of the package, then you should be praising this part. But no, you object because it is a liberal idea, and therefore in your mind, a bad one. If you want to provide an actual argument against it, or an argument against any other part of the package, then feel free. But simply saying it costs too much (when in fact many economists are saying it is not enough) won't convince me of anything. Your opinion that the likey outcome is doom is good enough for you. It is not good enough for anyone else, particularly when you are quite obviously starting with a faulty assumption, that everything Democratic/liberal/left is evil/bad/dumb.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Ok...fine...

This may be your JFK SL...

Your grand kids will ask you someday where you were or what you did when all this happened...

and you'll smile and say something marginal as you've explained to me here...and you'll apologize and let them know how sorry you are it is that way...and perhaps share stories of how it was when America was the greatest nation on earth, and how it was based on individual freedoms and liberties, and maybe reminisce about how, although you didn't quite get it, there were free markets and prosperity...

(only in this metaphor you could have been one of the folks pointing towards the book depository...

before the motorcade got there...)

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Really?

Your fantasy vision of the future really is your whole argument? Come on, you can do better than that.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

OK...Meet Mr. Larry "Clueless" Summers - Obama's econ advisor...

And considering how well the Uber Democrat has done herself...

...let alone when you get them in a group

Why would we worry about our country's future...It's in their hands after all!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

So let me get this straight

I make note of the fact that your entire argument seems to be colored by your notion of Democrats as the enemy, as hammered into you by right-wing propaganda, and your response is showing me some YouTube videos of right-wing propaganda?

Listen, you are welcome to think whatever you want about the Democrats, but if you want to have an actual discussion about anything, you can't have your glaringly obvious partisan opinion as the foundation upon which your arguments are built, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone who isn't indoctrinated into your cult.

You have been presented with reasonable arguments as to why the Medicaid contraception expansion makes good economic sense, and your only counterarguments so far have been to sputter about certain doom and how stupid and evil Democrats are.

Bleah.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

When did ...

Meet the Press and CNN become "right-wing propaganda" organs?

I guess I must have missed the memo about the change of ownership.  Let me check my mail again.  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

I know, funny reation huh?

What she said to me could easily be turned 180 degrees and apply just as well.

Funny how they never respond to content, just rant about the formalities of this or the tone of that?

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

What content?

Funny how they never respond to content

Where in this thread have you provided any content to respond to? Starting from Tlaloc's argument here , what have you said that is not just your standard liberal-bashing mantra? You have not argued against anything that Tlaloc asserted, or anything that I asserted here . How do you expect us to respond if your entire "argument" consists of "You're a poopy-headed liberal, therefore you are wrong?"

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Well here then...Just for starters...

It is such a ludicrous thing, I can't even believe you need to be convinced of anything, but you are a liberal, so...Why not actually do things to fix the economy? We have already given Planned Parenthood a $300M gift this year, I think we could do better than tossing them another $300M, don't you. Just as a matter of fiscal policy we could...

1) Investment Tax Credit Unlike traditional fiscal policy an investment tax credit cannot be fully crowded out and it works best when it is expected to be temporary. Cuts in income taxes stimulate the least when they are expected to be temporary.  But in contrast, an investment tax credit stimulates the most when it is expected to be temporary because a temporary credit must be used now or lost while a permanent credit gives you the option to wait.

2)  A supply side stimulus : The IRS knows how much income that each taxpayer reported last year.  So let's cut everyone's marginal tax rate based on last year's income.  In other words, suppose that last year Joe earned $66,520 which puts him in a 25% tax bracket.  Joe's tax schedule this year will be exactly the same as last year except for every dollar earned above $66,520 the tax rate drops to 15%.   We do this for all taxpayers so that each taxpayer has their own schedule and for each taxpayer there is a decreasing marginal tax rate.Note that this plan increases the incentive to work and it doesn't increase the deficit.  In fact, the Tabarrok plan increases tax revenues!  The key is a marginal tax cut with a different margin for every taxpayer based upon last year's return.

3). A cut in the payroll tax ala Singapore .  If employment is down reduce the cost of employing labor.  This policy has lot to recommend it because unlike a fiscal stimulus it lets the reallocation process work towards its long run equilibrium.  A construction stimulus, for example, pushes people into construction (or keeps them there) when perhaps labor could ultimately be more productive in other sectors of the economy.  The payroll tax cut enhances this reallocation effort it doesn't impede it.

4)  Don't PanicThis is the policy that has cured most recessions.  The do anything and do it now mindset feeds panic.  I do think this recession will be longer than average and quite deep, it is a concern that it is worldwide.  But recessions are normal and we have unemployment insurance and other assistance programs to help people through tough times.  The economy will recover and its very possible to make things worse by trying to make things better.

Here are a list of economists who are out against the stimulus;

Alberto Alesina , Robert Barro , Gary Becker , John Cochrane , Eugene Fama , Robert Lucas , Greg Mankiw , Kevin Murphy , Thomas Sargent , Harald Uhlig , and Luigi Zingales

Here is a good article from Marginal Revolution :

This exchange is a good micro-cosm of how the stimulus debate has proceeded.  A highly respected anti-stimulus economist puts up some anti-stimulus evidence in a highly imperfect test (in Barro's defense, he did cover more than just WWII).  The anti-stimulus economist is attacked by pro-stimulus economists.  But the pro-stimulus proponents are focused on attack.  They are not putting up comparable empirical evidence of their own for the efficacy of fiscal policy and there is a reason for that, namely that the evidence isn't really there.

I fully admit that I don't trust the oft-cited evidence that tax cuts are 4x better stimulus than government spending boosts; I think the result is a mirage from underspecified models.  Overall we simply don't know how well the proposed stimulus will work -- if at all (is aggregate demand always the relevant war?).  It's a kind of Hail Mary pass, an enduring belief in aggregate demand macroeconomics at the theoretical level, even in light of broken banks, sectoral shifts, and nasty, failing expectations, all mixed in with hard to spend well, slow to come on line , monies.  Yes it could work but our agnosticism should be strong rather than just perfunctory. 

Writing polemics against market-oriented economists, no matter what the failings of such economists (and I am one of them, and I have failings), doesn't get us out of that box.

I'll say it again to the pro-stimulus forces: a stimulus is going to happen, so I'd love to be cheered up by your evidence.  Put it on the table.

Here is Barro's article :

As we all know, we are in the middle of what will likely be the worst U.S. economic contraction since the 1930s. In this context and from the history of the Great Depression, I can understand various attempts to prop up the financial system. These efforts, akin to avoiding bank runs in prior periods, recognize that the social consequences of credit-market decisions extend well beyond the individuals and businesses making the decisions.

But, in terms of fiscal-stimulus proposals, it would be unfortunate if the best Team Obama can offer is an unvarnished version of Keynes's 1936 "General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money." The financial crisis and possible depression do not invalidate everything we have learned about macroeconomics since 1936.

Much more focus should be on incentives for people and businesses to invest, produce and work. On the tax side, we should avoid programs that throw money at people and emphasize instead reductions in marginal income-tax rates -- especially where these rates are already high and fall on capital income. Eliminating the federal corporate income tax would be brilliant. On the spending side, the main point is that we should not be considering massive public-works programs that do not pass muster from the perspective of cost-benefit analysis. Just as in the 1980s, when extreme supply-side views on tax cuts were unjustified, it is wrong now to think that added government spending is free.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Better

You still don't seem to be arguing against any of the points that have been made in favor of the Medicaid expansion, so I guess that just isn't the argument you want to have. It was your railing against that expansion that drew me into this discussion in the first place, though. Hence my frustration with your lack of engagement, and my astonishment at your claim that I am the one not responding to content!

I don't deny that the ideas you have presented here may be good ones, although the different tax schedule for every taxpayer sounds kinda crazy. I suppose it would boost business for tax preparation services, though!

The cut in payroll tax is in the Democrat's plan already. In fact, I think it is the largest part of the tax cuts. There may be investment tax credits as well, though I believe they are targetted specifically at renewable energy, which may not be what you have in mind.

Don't Panic is always good advice.

I'd be tremendously surprised if there were not a bunch of economists against the stimulus. How often do economists actually agree on anything? :) I suppose I could come up with a list of economists who think it's too small, too, but I doubt you'd be impressed.

I am unable to connect to Marginal Revolution for some reason. I'll try again later. But as for "I'd love to be cheered up by your evidence.  Put it on the table." Well, I did put some evidence on the table that the contraceptive thing would more than pay for itself. Do I need to go through every expenditure line by line before you are satisfied that there might be some good ideas in there?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

As for the part you like to coin, "Medicaid Expansion"...

Sure lets have that talk...it just would not be something I would want to stand on if the tables were turned...but...here you go...

Michelle Malkin , Media Blog , Townhall.com , Pajamas Media , A Blog For All , Don Surber , MsUnderestimated , Hot Air , The Foundry , Moonbattery , Wonkette , This ain't Hell … , THE ASTUTE BLOGGERS , Whiskey Fire , Riehl World View , Gateway Pundit and The Other McCain

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Enlightening...

This is really getting to be ridiculous now. Almost all of the links you provide say exactly the same thing. In summary: "Nancy Pelosi just defended the contraception funding! She's sooo stupid!"

Yep, it's just more of the same. "It's coming from a liberal, so it must be bad." Zero analysis of what she actually said. Zero response to the content. It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

Two exceptions (and I confess I didn't read them all because they were getting repetitive. If there is a real argument in there somewhere, maybe you could pare down your link list, or just summarize it yourself?):

Wonkette - I think it is hilarious that you linked to that, since it is a parody of the tizzy the right-wing is in on this issue. Best part:

The TRUE FACT is that babies fart out dollar bills for their first 6-9 months, more than compensating for their parents’ lost wages plus health care plus extra food and $700 strollers and car seats and whatever. A responsible fiscal stimulus package would compel every woman over the age of 14 to have ten babies before 2011.

A Blog for All - kudos to them for actually providing some form of counter-argument:

It costs $190,000 to raise a child to the age of 18 , and that's a conservative figure at best. Throw in college, which can cost another $100,000, and you're talking real money.

That's real income earned by all those people, and Pelosi is telling us to throw that all away because it costs money, but contraceptives will save us money in the long run?

So it seems like this guy is saying that adding expenses to American families' budgets is a good way out of a recession. If they have to spend more money, they need to make more money, right? Well then, maybe we should just raise everyone's taxes $10,000/year. Then everyone will have to work harder. Problem solved!

Also love the way that it's not even "real money" until you throw in that extra $100,000!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Ok, so it boils down to this....

First off, I want to make it clear that most Republicans agree that a stimulus is necessary. Everyone knows we need to do everything we can to get the economy moving again.  Where we differ is the degree to which the engine ought to be government, or the private sector. I can not for the life of me understand why the current stimulus ignores the latter at the preference of the former, especially America’s biggest job creator, our small business sector.  I want the new jobs to come from the private sector. You want to grow employment through an expansion of government. 

The test of proper stimulus boils down to three words.  All of them beginning with the letter “t”.  Stimulus, by it's very nature should be timely, temporary, and targeted, but if you apply the three t’s test to much of the spending in the democrats stimulus package, it fails miserably.  

The first problem is we’re running out of money, even borrowed money.  Democrats readily admit at every turn, their package will total at least $825 billion, all of this when the baseline deficit for this fiscal year will hit $1.2 trillion.  That amount exceeds all historical records.  As a percentage of our economy, that will mean 8.3 percent, that amount easily exceeds the previous peak of 5.7 percent in 1983. 

The other problem is that, if we prime the pump too much, then we might risk too much stimulus.  The result could be inflation. The theory for erring on the side of overloading on the spending side is that we need to direct dollars to the folks most likely to spend them.  This is the reason we are told that we need extra money, expand entitlements, and other state aid.

It misses this point;

U.S. fiscal policy system already has an arsenal of anti-recessionary automatic stabilizers directed at the same population.  These stabilizers provide immediate assistance to those most vulnerable to an economic downturn. CBO says these benefits, including food stamps, unemployment insurance, Medicaid, etc will grow to $250 billion this year. 

Democrats did not include relief from the Alternative Minimum Tax either?

Spending in this bill should be judged based on tits merit, will it stimulate the economy and is the money being well spent? It wasn’t so long ago that $87 billion was a lot of money,  and providing assistance to states makes sense if we are concerned about states raising taxes or cutting spending, but is $87 billion the right number ,and is increased Medicaid spending the right way to do it? Couldn't we better stimulate economic recovery using that money elsewhere?

I’m disappointed that there seems to be no focus on trade as a component to the economic stimulus package.  Opening up new markets for U.S. exporters should be part of the mindset to stimulate our economy. 

There are just so many more direct ways to "stimulate" our economy, and it is frustrating to see things like the aforementioned in lieu of them.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Politics

That's not a particularly unreasonable position, and I actually said as much way back when . It would probably make more sense to split this thing up into a stimulus bill and a sustainability bill, or some such thing. But I don't think there is any way that will happen, because there would be far less Republican support for the sustainability portion - so it is definitely not in the Democrats interest to split them up. It would be politically foolish.

I believe, as does a pretty clear majority of America, that the substantial, strategic and sustained parts of this package are at least as important as the timely, temporary, and targeted bits. Ideally, the latter gets the economy out of the crapper, and the former helps it grow in real ways, not the illusionary credit bubbles that seem to have been the driving force for the past twenty (?) years or so.

The contraceptive thing is probably neither of these. Heh! But I still think it is a good idea. Looks like it's getting dropped anyway. Maybe it was stuck in there just to give Republicans something to target, then the Democrats can cut it as a "compromise." :) It'll probably be back when Congress tackles health care, whenever that might be!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

I don't understand it?

It would probably make more sense to split this thing up into a stimulus bill and a sustainability bill, or some such thing. But I don't think there is any way that will happen, because there would be far less Republican support for the sustainability portion - so it is definitely not in the Democrats interest to split them up. It would be politically foolish.

So...You agree, but essentially are afraid the Democrats won't be able to exploit this golden opportunity to further their big government agenda?

I believe, as does a pretty clear majority of America, that the substantial, strategic and sustained parts of this package are at least as important as the timely, temporary, and targeted bits. Ideally, the latter gets the economy out of the crapper, and the former helps it grow in real ways, not the illusionary credit bubbles that seem to have been the driving force for the past twenty (?) years or so.

Oh contraire, I think most of America is crapping themselves over this, and would just like the economy dialed in thank you very much, and may or may not like to see a sprawling fed. And just a quick note, the economy has grown in very real ways, but never through Government expansionism, that would be not real growth, but adding burden to taxpayers. I don't know if you guys get that we already have a huge federal government, and we can only sustain so much? Already entitlements are 2/3rds of the budget, how are supposed to pay for all this!

The contraceptive thing is probably neither of these. Heh! But I still think it is a good idea. Looks like it's getting dropped anyway. Maybe it was stuck in there just to give Republicans something to target, then the Democrats can cut it as a "compromise." :) It'll probably be back when Congress tackles health care, whenever that might be!

Yes it is being cut, and why, because it was stupid. Especially considering the situation we're in.

It's like you're saying, sure wer're about to file bankruptcy, but forget tightening our budget, and taking a second job, instead lets take a 3rd on our house and put a big fancy addition on it, how will we pay for it, aw lets not worry about that, we have to impress the neighborhood, anyway the kids will handle that, and besides it'll make us feel better seeing all the workers running around?

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Sigh

See, now you're reading everything through your Democrats are evil prism again. What you see as furthering their big government agenda is actually an honest attempt to help the economy.

You can believe what you want about what America thinks, and of course we are all concerned about the cost, but recent polls seem to support my assertion that most Americans support the Obama/Dem plan.

Gotta love your consistency on your arguments against the contraceptive program. Because it was stupid. Such an erudite display of logic!

I'm not saying let's put a big fancy addition on the house, I'm saying let's get some triple-paned insulated windows, put in solar panels, get high-speed internet so we can work from home, etc. Surely you understand the concept of spending money to save money, don't you?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

It just ocuured to me...

...after feeling guilty of putting on too partisan a display for half a second...that in all of this, you are consistently as partisan as I. LOL.

You see the world through a liberal prism, were liberal views are always good, and if a differing opinion that has merit comes into play, the liberal one is always better, and those who dare question that, are just too partisan to get it.

The contraception thing was a litmus test of sorts, it flies in the face of anything that could be considered legitimate stimulus, and if you don't understand at least that much, don't balance your own checkbook. ...kidding. ;-)

LOL!

...funny how all that works huh?

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Consistently partisan

Let's see... in this open thread alone:

Regarding your opinion: That's a reasonable position.

To independentminded: Those issues are ones on which I happen to disagree with Obama...

To you: I don't deny that the ideas you have presented here may be good ones...

Again, on your opinion: That's not a particularly unreasonable position...

A general comment: There are plenty of bad ideas supported by Democrats. But that does not mean that all Democratic ideas are bad. Same holds true for Republicans and Republican ideas.

On Obama and the 2008 election: I felt there was at least a chance that he would not only be competent, but willing to listen to conservative ideas (and use the good ones!). McCain may have been able to do the same from the other side, which was why I felt pretty good about our prospects after the primary, no matter what the final outcome.

On Clinton and Bush: But there is no denying that both received a lot of criticism from the other side (and probably more than was justified on both counts).

And, I also said that the contraceptive thing probably does not belong in the stimulus, but that I think it is still a good idea. So apparently I pass your litmus test!

Of course, since you are so insanely partisan, I am quite sure that all of the above looks like far left-wing hate speech to you! :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Politeness doesn't = objectivity (or) My point made PERFECTLY.

..of all the ideas you've heard here, over the course of all that time, good, bad, and indifferent...

...you dismissed them all... (politely of course, but nonetheless...)

...in favor of...

(You guessed it ladies and gentlemen)

...whatever Obama, Pelosi or the Dem's was saying at the time.

Time to take a look in the mirror, and decide what YOU think for once... ;-)

(Shouldn't have straightened me out on the fact you're a dude...LOL!)

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Hoo boy

Thanks for the advice, brother!

As much as I am sure everyone here is intensely interested in reading a lengthy discussion about your opinion of me, I'm afraid I am going to have to call it quite here. Feel free to continue this fascinating topic without me.

But fear not! I have taken your words to heart. In the future, I shall endeavor never again to:

a) post a comment or diary that is nothing but a lengthy quote from some other blog, with little or no commentary of my own;

b) respond to a question about what I think with a YouTube video.

c) support my arguments with a dump of links from a Google search that I didn't even bother to click through and read myself.

Perhaps then, everyone here will begin to realize that I am an actual human being with my own ideas, not just an automaton programmed by the Republican... er, I mean Democratic National Committe.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

MY VOTE

WOULD BE FOR YOU TO SHOUT YOUR IDEAS LOUDER.

LOUD MAKES YOU MORE AMERICAN! 

Clearly it's working well for the party of 'No' er I mean the Grand Opposition Party  ;-)

 

………… parent

He doesn't have to shout them...

...they're all right there on the DNC website.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Truth stings...

I just realized, you haven't broke your lockstep with them one iota, so how does that make you any less partisan than I.IT DOESN"T! LOL!

Despite your posting etiquette...you are, in the end, just another liberal partisan hack...

I'd say join the club...but you're already a full fledged member!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Let them eat cake - The Dem's new mantra...

We are just not seeing the kind of stewardship of the federal government that we all hoped for, at least in as much as the silver tongued Obama promised in his post partisan promises.

I think Obama promised a lot, and to hold him to at least the fundamentals of that is hardly asking too much! Pelosi and Reid need to come to the table, and the POTUS should spend less time worrying about Rush Limbaugh, and more time getting his 2nd's in line.

Note the following from Marc Ambinder’s account of the meeting between President Obama and the House GOP over the stimulus package:

The President admitted that all of the spending [for the stimulus] can’t be done in two or three years.

So, the President is finally admitting that the government won’t be able to spend all of the stimulus money during the period the recession is likely to last.

We now see–in the event that we did not see earlier–that the effort to pass a stimulus package has significantly less to do with jump-starting the economy and more to do with implementing a massive public works bill that has been at the top of the Democratic Party’s wish list. The recession is just an excuse for this public works package. Recall, of course, that contra Naomi Klein, the real “Shock Doctrine” has been pursued not by Milton Friedman, but by his ideological opponents, who are more than willing to cynically use an economic crisis to advance their ideological agenda. This is just the latest evidence of the attempt to advance the Democratic Shock Doctrine to burden the country with a stimulus package that we do not need, do not want, will do nothing for our economy and will only serve to wreck whatever remains of our fiscal health.

HT-RS

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Obama's Very Stimulating Package

His package is designed to lubricate the economy, and is loaded with stimulus to enlarge the shrinking coffers of local economies which have suffered with cuts and bruises and have been sorely constricted by the family values party.

 The economy has shrunk tremendously under GOP leadership and growth has been rendered nearly impotent.

 Thankfully the Obama stimulus package offers the capacity for a  large improvement in growth overall.

  •  It almost seems that the GOP is  jealous that Obama's package is potent and will successfully begin to lubricate the economic sore spots bringing our country back to a sense of potency and vitality.
  • Why else does the GOP keep obsessing about Obama's package? 
  • :=)
………… parent

LOL! Ya that's it...Great analysis?

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

By the way

...although I have found it humorous so far that you seem to think I am female, and it might be fun to continue stringing you along, I do in fact have both an X and a Y chromosome. (And only one of each, thank you very much!)

I'm pretty sure you have made some other assumptions about me that are also incorrect, but for now we'll just clear up the one. :)

I have to admit some curiosity as to why you think I am a woman, but you can keep it to yourself if you prefer. I can think of two possibilities, one of which doesn't reflect too badly on you. :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

ROTFL! That is too funny!

...well then, my sincere apologies Sir.

Somehow early on I got that idea from something, I'll have to give it some thought... ;-)

...so funny....

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

No worries

My best guess was that in the context of defending gay marriage, I mentioned both "my wife" and the fact that I live in Massachusetts, and you concluded that I was a lesbian. :)

Or perhaps it is my remarkable wit and even-handedness that brought you to think I was a woman. (That's for you, independentminded, Miss L, and purpleface!)

Anyway, I am off to the movies, with my legally-married-in-all-50-states wife. :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

With appropriate editing

...Fox News can easily become left-wing propaganda. In fact, it often is. Does that mean Fox News itself is left-wing propaganda? I don't think so.

Granted, that first video is unedited MTP, so that is not right-wing propaganda. But then again, I don't see how that one particularly supports RW's assertion of cluelessness, so I pretty much ignored it.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

The trouble is though, Spiritual Lefty, is that

 the vast majority of the Democrats, including the Democratic Senator-turned-POTUS, also contributed to the mess that this country's presently in by going into locksttep with the Republicans on a number of things, such as the Patriot Act, the continued funding of our Iraq War, FISA, the disastrous bail-outs, and a number of other things.  So, the Democrats aren't blameless either.  Sorry.

………… parent

No argument there from me at least

Democrats are the lesser evil.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

I don't disagree either

I'm hardly making a claim that Democrats are blameless. My contention is simply that Democrats are not evil incarnate, and are not actively seeking to destroy the country.

There are plenty of bad ideas supported by Democrats. But that does not mean that all Democratic ideas are bad. Same holds true for Republicans and Republican ideas.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

We all can agree on that...

...I guess. ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Panic time

 We are all losing our freedoms and liberties. Could you be more hysterical? 

 It's the End of the World!! Run for you life.

 The democrats are sucking your brains out. You will no longer be able to make a living or think for yourself without their permission. OMG!

 

 

………… parent

I love this video - I'm sure you will hate it...

...that is if you can even understand it in it's simplest form.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Since you have prejudged

 that I won't understand, and and if I could I would hate it, I won't bother viewing.

It sounds like just a goad.

………… parent

Ok, but remember...

..."There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a person in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation"

I was being a bit to acrimonious perhaps, I apologize... ;-)

It is an overly simplistic little video...but cuts to the chase if you will....

Go ahead and watch it, it'll give you something to beat me up over... Kidding.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I have a headache

when I am in the mood, I might take the time to watch it, if I feel like it.

OH and thanks for not being a complete d*** all the time ;-{} 

………… parent

This is one that may put a wrinkle in your brow...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Gattaca, Bread and Circus, Target Fixation, and Children of Men

The following is on topic, I swear.

I love this video - I'm sure you will hate it...

A wise man once said: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Target fixation: the process by which the brain is focused so intently on an observed object that awareness of other obstacles or hazards can diminish.

In Children of Men a rebel group is so fixated on fighting their oppressors, they nearly kill and ignore the key solution to their original problem

The economic game wasn't started on even terms. If the Cardinals were forced to run a marathon before they played the Steelers, you'd be hearing the Cardinals long for an more even playing field.

Freud might have a field day with Dr Williams and conclude that Williams is spiteful at the others of his youth that didn't make it out of poverty and convinced himself that poor people are afflicted with a woe-is-me attitude.

"Income redistribution" doesn't need to take the form of people being paid to watch Oprah.
A non-zero sum game can still leave many more people out of the game entirely.

Around 4:20 he seems to subscribe to a different version of history than any historian I know. Generally people are wealthy haven been born wealthy, the people that later become wealthy may have generally worked for it.

As for the taxes being robbery which includes the upper 1% being "robbed."
It's what thief you like better the thieves of our grandfathers or the thieves of today. Can what was stolen yesterday be truly stolen today.

Also there is more than one Federal tax, the Federal Income Tax is just one of many Federal taxes. If taxes are robbery, at least the government keeps their hands mostly out of the pockets of the one's with the least.

A realist might think that taxes is the price those on one side of the wall need to pay to keep the 30' gorilla on the other side well fed.

The state always demands a sacrifice , but if it's paid so that the Donner Party is fed, let the government steal.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

It's that time of the night I suppose...

A wise man once said: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Um, excuse me, but, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"...is an absolute in and of itself. lol.

Target fixation: the process by which the brain is focused so intently on an observed object that awareness of other obstacles or hazards can diminish.

Works for Tiger Woods.

In Children of Men a rebel group is so fixated on fighting their oppressors, they nearly kill and ignore the key solution to their original problem

Haven't seen the movie?

The economic game wasn't started on even terms. If the Cardinals were forced to run a marathon before they played the Steelers, you'd be hearing the Cardinals long for an more even playing field.

It was even today, has been for a while, but the only one's who know what the field conditions are...are those who chose to suit up and go and try out for the team.

Freud might have a field day with Dr Williams and conclude that Williams is spiteful at the others of his youth that didn't make it out of poverty and convinced himself that poor people are afflicted with a woe-is-me attitude.

Freud is a joke by and large, but he was just as likely to have done a line before he walked into the room,  and promptly tell him his views were being influenced by his latent desire to get it on with his mother.

"Income redistribution" doesn't need to take the form of people being paid to watch Oprah.
A non-zero sum game can still leave many more people out of the game entirely.

Income redistribution violates a spectrum ofcriteria we don't have the time to address here.

Around 4:20 he seems to subscribe to a different version of history than any historian I know. Generally people are wealthy haven been born wealthy, the people that later become wealthy may have generally worked for it.

I saw nothing that puzzled me there?

As for the taxes being robbery which includes the upper 1% being "robbed."
It's what thief you like better the thieves of our grandfathers or the thieves of today. Can what was stolen yesterday be truly stolen today.

Too ethereal, maybe you can help me understand what you're attempting to say?

I will say that the federal government has set itself up to be the recipient of the gift that keeps on giving....one generation to the next.

Also there is more than one Federal tax, the Federal Income Tax is just one of many Federal taxes. If taxes are robbery, at least the government keeps their hands mostly out of the pockets of the one's with the least.

It is a cluster F, and needs to be changed!

A realist might think that taxes is the price those on one side of the wall need to pay to keep the 30' gorilla on the other side well fed.

It is sad that the beautiful system of government the founders gave us, has been so debased - that you have to think of it that way, and you think your being a realist?

The state always demands a sacrifice , but if it's paid so that the Donner Party is fed, let the government steal.

....not very impressed with him, whoever he is?.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Freud is a joke by and large,

Freud is a joke by and large, but he was just as likely to have done a line before he walked into the room, and promptly tell him his views were being influenced by his latent desire to get it on with his mother.

:) Agreed.

I saw nothing that puzzled me there?

Williams seems to failed to qualify and thus imply everyone has "earned' what they have through work. Even though he is saying something along the lines of "to each according to his abilities to earn money through actual work" Or Williams seems to feel that vast family wealth earned through Trust and Monopolies is earned.

It is a cluster F, and needs to be changed!

If taxes are robbery,  the Federal government is at least serendipitous enough to counteract other federal taxes than burden individuals outside of the Federal Income Tax for those individuals that have the least to "get stolen." It is sad that the beautiful system of government the founders gave us, has been so debased - that you have to think of it that way, and you think your being a realist? Not really a reason I generally support progressive taxes, but one should be aware of the consequences. ie if one wants to open up Pandora's Box, just be aware what you're opening.

....not very impressed with him, whoever he is?.

Why, it's one of the Founding fathers.

 

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

*shrug*

I gave you a logical argument and in return I get an appeal to authority.  Color me unconvinced.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Tlaloc, you romantic...

having more kids tends to correlate strongly with poerty

The fine art of seduction...poetry.(It's my right to read a typo however I want!)

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

………… parent

You mean poverty, right?

 yes, having more kids is often related to poverty, but, more often than not, it's related to not having access to birth control and/or abortion rights.  It's shameful that people should be forced to have unwanted children when it's so tough to take care of, feed and clothe  kids, not to mention educate them and keep a roof over their heads.  Why don't the anti-choice people put their money where their mouths are and take in some of these kids who were conceived as a consequence of unwanted pregnancies?  

………… parent

I will tell you a shameful secret

I actually have a published poem.  It's not exactly the kind of freelance writing I usually do but it was a quick couple-o bucks.  Let the mockery commence.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

This is funnier than anything he ever did on SNL!

Al Franken is now basically telling the court to stay out of the whole election mess ...and his solution...

Let Harry Reid decide! LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

…………

sorry, I am an idiot

The blockquote button is now in

and working

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

Thx man!

………… parent

thanks to you

for bringing it up to my attention, especially the part where it is :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

YEAH!

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Look at England...it would behoove us to learn the lesson...

Nuts ...... why would any rational state allow immigration of a people who reject co-existence out of hand, and whose objective is dar al-Islam and sharia law? I ask you?

GHETTO BRITAIN the Star

MUSLIMS want to create their own communities and remain segregated from British society. A shocking 44% think they should be free to develop along separate lines.

MUSLIMS WONT INTEGRATE But critics claim Muslims will create their own ghettos if they are left to their own devices.

The poll found religion has replaced race as the biggest equality issue, with six in 10 Brits thinking it is more divisive. Mass tension has grown following terror attacks from Muslim fanatics, including the 7/7 Tube bombings in 2005.

The war in Iraq has also added to divisions leaving many communities split.

But critics are fuming Muslims are refusing to fit into our way of life.

English Democrats’ chairman Robin Tilbrook said: “As far as I’m concerned, what we want to be about is having an integrated society.

If people don’t want to  integrate, they shouldn't be here.

“It’s not at all right to have what’s really a sort of ghetto situation developing – it’s going to lead to trouble.

“We can’t have a single society with lots of different rules.” Stephen Green, national director of Christian Voice, said: “I’m not surprised because there are already Muslim enclaves all over the country. They keep themselves to themselves anyway.”

From Atlas Shrugged

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

…………

Why shouldn't they be allowed

Why shouldn't they be allowed to keep to themselves, if they aren't harming others. I don't think anybody has any problem with the separatist societies of the Amish. They shouldn't be allowed to harm others, but you seem to have a problem just with them keeping to themselves.

………… parent

Look into it a little more deeply...

These people are wanting to live under their own law, so instead of being arrested and going to court, they may be stoned, or have their hand cut off.

And it poses a wealth of other troubling prospects as well....

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Anybody's hand get cut off yet?

Any stonings happened yet?

And more to the point:

Any hands get cut off yet that weren't prosecuted under British law?

Any stonings happen yet that weren't prosecuted under British law?

If not, then what exactly is so troubling here about a free society where people are permitted to live their lives however they see fit, and associate with whomever they wish, so long as they do not violate the law?  Or do you want to legislate dress codes and so forth?

 

………… parent

If that was the case, no, but it isn't...

If not, then what exactly is so troubling here about a free society where people are permitted to live their lives however they see fit, and associate with whomever they wish, so long as they do not violate the law?

Nothing at all.

Unfortunately that is not all they are attempting.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Well, then why not discuss the things they are attempting...

...instead of casting out things things like stonings and cutting off hands?  Then perhaps we can determing if laws are being violated and go from there.

………… parent

Ok

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Who is this man...

...and why exactly should I believe anything he has to say?

………… parent

Who are you and why should I believe anything you say?

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Because I'm skymutt, son...

If you don't know why, you better ask somebody ;-)

………… parent

Pat Condell of course

Fairly well know atheist on youtube.   Not a big fan of the xenophobic Muslims that migrated to the UK.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Ah I see... a comedian.

That explains the racist statements... comedic license, I guess.  Not my particular cup of tea as far as humor, but at least it answers my question of whether I should take him seriously!

………… parent

Oh he's serious. Why Atheists can't be serious...Oh Skymutt?

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

It's around the corner

If the Brits continue to allow the more fundamentalist ilk of Muslims in, those elements will pry their views on all that they can. They're already those that have a sway that are actively working to criminalize certain disagreements with Islam as hate speech, it's happening with the Danes right now.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Ding ding...We have a winner!

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I WANT SOME TARP!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

…………

New York Finally Did Something Right...no pun intended... ;-)

After Caroline Kennedy seemingly disappeared into thin air after a short circuted bid for Hillary Clinton's seat in the Senate, Gotham now has it's girl, a Blue Dog Democrat, and a gun rights advocate has been tapped to fill that spot in the form of Kirsten Gillibrand , a Democratic NY State Congressman from upstate.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

…………

Why in the world did they APPOINT a senator,

 instead of doing it the usual Democratic way and having the people elect who they pleased?  Oh, boy, it sounds like this was learned from the Supreme Court, who HANDED former President Bush's seat in the  White House to him.  Not a good omen, imho.

………… parent

Anderson Cooper Loaded & Live On Air...LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

…………

Good ole days

Too bad that fake CNN site was taken down years ago , otherwise I'd have you feeling bad with a story about Anderson having an inoperable malignant brain tumor.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

This was apparently posted last night...

...and it is of recent breaking news...

...Are you asserting it is faked?

It seems to me in doing a quick investigation on google...it's real.

How about Diane then...she was probably hanging out with Anderson all night...LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Not saying it's fake....

...just that Anderson may have medical problems, Diane seemed a bit tipsy on the other hand.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent