Wednesday Open Thread
House will be voting on the Obama Stimulus plan today and Obama will hear advice of the service chiefs on Iraq
What's going on today?
Submitted by Ender on Wed, 2009-01-28 10:35
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House will be voting on the Obama Stimulus plan today and Obama will hear advice of the service chiefs on Iraq
What's going on today?
Comments :
I'm enjoying the day off work
Franklin county is under a level 2 snow emergency.
We received a good sleet/freezing rain/snow storm over night. The boss called in at 9 and said not to bother coming in.
Time to get to work finishing odds and ends around the apartment.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Obama the Republican?
Via Sullivan
from the NYT
:
“This was not a drive-by P.R. stunt, and I actually thought it might be. It was a substantive, in-depth discussion with our conference, and [Obama is] very effective. He knows that the debt and the deficit are huge long-term problems as well and he made a compelling case. He sounded, frankly, a lot like a Republican,” - Rep. Zach Wamp (R-TN)
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
I love it!
A business minded, fiscally responsible democrat! I hope the rest of the party follows his lead.
I'm only half stupid
Doesn't Zach know Obama has been telling crowds...
...what they want to hear for a couple years now.
The stimulus package he wants is PROOF positive of what he is...a big spending, big government, Democrat.
I respect the House Republican leadership for standing up to him on it!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
The Economic Recovery Program
It's not a stimulus package, its an economic recovery program.
Losing approximately 20 thousand jobs/day with all markets shrinking globally, insolvent banks around the world, and let me guess, you would suggest tax cuts are THE cure. If a business has no customers (demand) then tax cuts won't promote growth.
Businesses want customers that are willing to spend because they have the confidence they won't lose their jobs.
I'm only half stupid
Taken at face value
I still think that's better than a big spending, big government Republican.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Zing....
'tis true.
Dubya was the biggest spending President we had since LBJ.
Non-military government expenditures grew by nearly 8% during his term (for comparison's sake, only about 5% during Clinton's term).
George W. Bush, with a GOP congress for 75% of his term, grew the U.S. government at a faster rate than any President in 40 years.
So much for "small government conservatism".
All talk.
I survived the Bush Administration
Which is why this is one of the topics I have complained about.
With Bush43, obviously. See, I'm not a blind partisan. When the man was spending like a drunken sailor I was complaining about it.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Good thing we didn't call you out by name
Otherwise we'd be pretty embarassed.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Sorry, I don't understand you point.
.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4My apologies
You just jumped into the conversation in what seemed to be a very defensive tone, as though we were calling you out for your support for the GOP's gluttonous ways.
We all know how disheartened you are by the new and improved Big Government GOP.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
I'm no fan of spending ...R or D...
...but still disagree...I'd rather spend money on defense than entitlements. The infrastructure in good either way.
Obviusly we need better oversight in PM's dept... ;-)
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Why?
I'm curious as to why?
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Well its constitutional for one....
Our government already spends 2/3rds of its budget on unconstitutional entitlements. It's a bad idea gone wild.
Our military needs to be maintained, upgraded, etc.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Unconstitutional?
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States"
It provides for both defense and welfare right in the text itself. (article 1 section 8)
your "unconstitutional entitlements" are quite consitutional. At least as much as spending on the air force and marines, neither of which is explicitly allowed for but must be assumed under the coverall of "defense."
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Not exactly...
Military spending is constitutional...Entitlement spending is certainly not.
No where in the United States Constitution can you find any "entitlements" for any Americans. So how did America become a social welfare state almost as hopeless as Marxism and Communism? You can trace it to the 16th Amendment that established our nation's first income tax - an "illegal" tax that was never fully ratified by the States in 1913.
That was the beginning of the end.
By taxing American workers whatever amount they wanted, the United States Congress and the President were able to endlessly expand the federal government and create a massive, uncontrollable welfare state. The Welfare State began with President Franklin Roosevelt's irresponsible "New Deal" program in the 1930s, followed by President Lyndon Johnson's failed "Great Society" program in 1960s.
It has been all downhill since.
This nation was founded on independence, accountability and eslf responsibility, there is no such thing as a free lunch. We've become a society of free lunches and entitlements requiring a more than $2 trillion-a-year federal budget - and massive, indifferent bureaucracies at all levels of government doing for people what people are capable of doing for themselves. The only humanitarian exceptions are those with documented mental or physical disabilities. They are truly worthy of our help, but help without vast and confusing bureaucracies skimming most of the tax dollars off the top for themselves in overhead.
America must get back to its fundementals, before there was a New Deal, or a Great Society - all liberal notions that undermined our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and our freedom, independence and liberties.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Your logic doesn't hold up
No where in the constitution does it say anything about bullets, missiles, tanks, fighter aircraft, body armor, or helicopters. You assume those are okay under the generic term "defense." At the same time you want to claim that the similar argument (entitlements fall under the generic term"welfare") is certainly not constitutional.
You can't have it both ways, RW.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Oh come on...do we really have to play this game...
Of course, when the founders wrote the Constitution, and fought that little war that established our country, they knew that bullets, guns, and whatever state of the art of war equipment that may entail.
Not only does the constitution not allow for ant manner of entitlement, the founders themselves went into great detail to prevent any such occurence!
When the Constitution was being considered for ratification by the State Senates, some people were suspicious of the "general welfare" Clause and tried to claim that these two words could authorize any kind of welfare. The general welfare Clause in Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution reads:
"The Congress shall have Power to ... provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; ..."
It is an introductory phrase which is followed, after a semi-colon, by a specific list of the 17 things the new government would be authorized to do, such as; to establish Post Offices, coin money, make Treaties, establish standard weights and measures, provide for a Navy, punish pirates, punish counterfeiting, fund a temporary army, declare war, and exercise exclusive jurisdiction over all cases in the future Washington, D.C., etc.
To counter those rumors that the general welfare Clause in the proposed Constitution would authorize any kind of welfare, James Madison, in Federalist Paper #41, explained its clear intent. He stated that it;
"is an absurdity"
...to claim that the General Welfare Clause confounds or misleads, because this introductory Clause is followed by enumeration of specific particulars that explain and qualify the meaning of phrase "general welfare."
Why do people like you not seek the truth of the matter, and instead try to find your own meaning in the Constitution?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
We've already established
We've already established that Tlaloc doesn't recognize the Federalist Papers as having any relevance in regards to our Contisitution or it's interpretation.
True
Altough I'd say that they simply have no binding force. They may very well show us what the founders intended but the founders intents do not carry weight of law.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
If the application of law
If the application of law required no interpretation then Judges would behave far differently. While you may feel you are right in the strict sense, I think reality reflects a different understanding.
Interpretation, surely.
Original intent from two centuries ago? Not so much.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Could you enumerate where you
Could you enumerate where you see the difference?
Certainly.
When a judge looks at the second amendment and decides it should apply to muzzle loading black powder muskets, that is original intent. When they decide it should apply to 9mm handguns that's interpretation.
Original intent is making yourself slave to the prejudices of men long since dead. Men who would be functionally idiots should they be miraculously raised from the dead tomorrow.
Interpretation is taking the law and tying to use common sense as well as jurisprudence to keep it from being instantly outdated by changing circumstances.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Interpretation is taking the
I think both of those definitions are functionally weak enough so as to allow for manipulation. But I see your understanding.
Manipulations
I don't disagree that interpretation allows for manipulations, but what is the alternative? Even the most dense legalese still requires interpretation to put into effect, and the constitution (and Bill of Rights for that matter) are far from legalese.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
There are amendments to deal with...
any inherent antiquity issues...
A firearm is a firearm, so your illustration is an invalid one.
The opposite could not be more true! Originalist interpretation does not enslave one to anything, it gives one clear understanding of the framework, and thus frees us to make lawful legislation etc.
It liberates the reader to know he is true to what our country is, and enables him to identify false prophets like yourself.
The founding principles are as sound today as they were hundreds of years ago, all other revolutions have come and gone, only ours remains. And it is because of the innate qualities the framers wrote into our founding documents.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
How can restricting yourself
to the unchangable whims of dead men possibly be freeing?
And no a firearm is not a firearm. A musket is very very different from a hand gun or a modern rifle, or a blunderbuss, or a shotgun. Weapons are tools made to a particular purpose.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
"Unchangeable whims"....think about that Tlaloc....
Nevermind.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
The Constitution carries law...
...and the original intent of the founders is what is of interest here.
Without holding the constitution to its original meaning it has no meaning, and becomes a fictional document that can be to one person one thing and to another something else entirely, and consequently is then of no use or interest to anyone.
Being a anarchist yourself, maybe that is your attempt here?
We must consider the framers original intent when intepeting the constitution. It contains our guiding principles, so why we may differ on policy, politics and the like, we can never disagree about this.
It is what it is, don't dig it, asta la vista baby.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
The constitution has to be interpreted
the question is only whether we will do it ourselves, with an eye towards what it means in modern circumstances, or if we do it by trying to interpret how the original founder interpret it (with our imperfect knowledge of what they thought, and their utter ignornce of the modern world).
That's a pretty easy choice in my book.
The constitution bereft of interpretation is nothing more than a piece of vellum. It does nothing itself except inso much as we internalize it and give it meaning.
We most certainly do disagree about this. The original founders were not gods or supermen, and there is no reason on earth you must kneel before their idols and obey their commands. They were just men. And they're dead now. They have nothing to say about the modern world because it is a thing beyond their wildest imaginings.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Ok...
Thank goodness the constitution was not written on a page out of your book...
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
No RW, that's just not true
You are pretending that the first part of A1S8 is introductory when it is not, it is the first in the list of what congress may do, and it explicitly says congress can raise and spend money on both defense and welfare. One obvious way we know that your interpretation is wrong is that the remained of A1S8 is not specific powers explaining the "introductory clause." In addition EVERY clause in A1S8 is followed by a semicolon, not just the first.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Tlaloc...you are not correct on this issue.
1st....
Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government.
~ James Madison
...and 2nd....
"One cannot lay their finger
on a single article in the Constitution
which grants a right to Congress for any expenditure
in the name of benevolence with
the money of their constituents."
~James Madison
Father of the Constitution, 4th US President
1792, in disapproval of Congress considering $15,000 for assistance to private citizens
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Seriously, Red_Wing. You are
Seriously, Red_Wing. You are not hearing Tlaloc. It does not matter what was said outside of the Constitution. If James Madison wanted us to understand that, he should have written...
...at the bottom of the Constitution! But he didn't at it's too late and there's no do-overs with our Constitution! Wait...
No....seriously....
Please read through the text, you see the things that they were considering welfare, run courts, coin money, conduct foreign policy, etc etc. Do you see anything even remotely like something authorizing the redistribution of one mens property to another? No. Not even close. Why, because as it is so obvious to see, they were talking about the "General" welfare of the country. The absence of the directive is also proof. Had they intended to allow it, they would have gone to lengths to perfect the how where when and whys of it. Instead they did the opposite The evidence is overwhelming.
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I should clarify that I was
I should clarify that I was being sarcastic. I agree with what you are trying to assert.
I sensed your being a bit devilish... ;-)...
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Magilson is right, here.
Since I have no special regard for the supposed intent of the founding fathers there's no purpose to you (RW) making arguments from such intentions. It just won't work to convince me at all. It's like me trying to sway you by saying "Well Barbara Boxers said x, so you should totally agree."
Magilson- yes anythign they wanted to be part of the law should have been in the constitution or an amendment. Part of the problem with arguing from intentions is that we really don't have any idea what those intentions were. We know what this person said when they write this letter or that paper, but was this a passing fancy? Was it a deep becdrock of belief? Was it a conclusion reached long afterwards?
Another probelm with arguing from intent is that we had a number of "founding fathers" and they had pretty disparate views on the matter. There is no one "original intent" there are a multitude, and no reason to view one as more legitimate than another. These men argued out their differences and came to a mutual understanding, which is the constitution they signed. That's where the law is, not in whatever personal prejudices they might have had that they could not convice their fellows to include.
Finally the last problem with arguing from intent is that there is no reason on earth to treat the found fathers as superhuman. They were a generally smart bunch and faced with a big task they did rather well. Better than many others, but no perfect. That said they are dead and gone. They are significantly less relevant to modern politics than any 18 year old citizen because that citizen can vote. It is anachronistic, not to mention naive, to try and apply the founding father's ideals to a world that is entirely different than the one they lived in.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Naive? I'm not sure you
Naive? I'm not sure you thought that one through. You are doing just that in applying the Constitution.
How so? -nt.
-nt.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Constitutional interpretation
There is no inherent reason why textualism or originalism (the philosophy I ascribe to) is better than the "living constitution" interpretation. I obviously maintain that originalism is the most logical and therefore "best" way to interpret the constitution, but I don't believe that it is the only rational way to do so.
My originalist philosophy comes from the idea that the meaning of the words in the law must be constant otherwise someone can never know at any instant if they are breaking the law (or in this case, whether or not the government has the power to do X). However, this would imply that I'm a strong proponent of stare decisis, which I'm not.
To make a long story short, Tlaloc's living document approach isn't mine, but it is consistent. It's not like we have the market cornered on legal interpretation theories.
As an aside, more and more I find myself in the middle ground. This scares me to no end. I've said before that the moderates are the real idiots because they believe how things are now are generally how they should be.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
M was joking.. hint hint...
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
unintentionally right is still right
I can give people the benefit of the doubt :)
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Ha, a misreading worthy of me.
But of course this is hte welfare of the United States, not its citizens. I don't believe the founders envisioned welfare as we know it today, so I doubt that word means what you think it means (in this context).
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4As if the United States was a
As if the United States was a tangible entity hidden in some vault in Washtington D.C. We, the citizens, are the United States.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it's poor arguments like this that give people like Tlaloc a certain spring in the philosophical step.
He is just being intentionally provacative...
...He knows he's on the wrong side of that whole thing.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Regardless (or is it
Regardless (or is it irregardless). ;)
Splitting the distance yet again
I agree with your reading, however...
And this is where Tlaloc makes his point. They didn't envision a lot as we know it today. Why be bound by their intent when it isn't all that relevant to life in the 21st century?
I know our answer is pretty much the same, but it is still a compelling question.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Not really....
They expressly shunned such ideas as welfare in that sense.
This whole thing is just an excercise in appeasing you liberals...the Constitution is rock solid in this regard, and it is unequivocally not in your favor.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Don't be so quick on the draw
Try to read a few more of my posts before responding.
I just made a case for why I think Tlaloc is wrong in his interpretation and I was agreeing with GoRight. I do not believe that the Constitution authorizes most entitlement programs in my opinion. However, the people who count (at least 5 of the people on the Supreme Court) think that it does, so I'm happy to go along with their view**.
The point that I was attempting to make is that, yes, the founders weren't interested in welfare, but Tlaloc really doesn't care what they thought because their opinions aren't the basis of his interpretation of the Constitution. The idea that we ought to use the founders' intent isn't self-evident by any means; we must properly defend it.
**Boiled down my position is that the states should be doing the heavy lifting on welfare, but someone needs to be doing it. And if the feds are doing it, then I'll live with that arrangement.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Stinerman
did I miss a post you wanted me to respond to? This thread has kind of taken off so it's very possible.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Not in particular
We've went back and forth on this topic enough.
However the post I was alluding to is here
.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Please clarifty
Taking your comment, again, at face value, are you charging that we don't spend enough on defense?
Your comment is hard to parse. Would you be happy if we literally took everything from entitlements and put it toward defense or would that be too much? Or are you just making the point that excessive spending on "constitutional" programs is better than excessive spending on "unconstitutional" programs?
(I use the quotes because the SCOTUS has already decided that most entitlements are constitutional therefore they are actually constitutional in an objective sense)
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Of course not...
I was just saying given the two...I would perfer the defense over the freebies.
I would like really to eliminate all entitlements, and keep military spending at whatever is needed, repeal the 16th amendment, close the IRS and Fed, have a fair tax, get our fiscal house in order, and our government back in line with the constitution.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
God.....
Compromising his own stiumulus package, eh?! Frankly, I KNEW all along that President Obama would do that. He's just another damned politician--like most all the others. THIS is precisely why I did a write-in at the polls on Election Day last November; I figured that no matter which one of the two POTUS Candidates got elected into office, we'd continue to get screwed.
Track Obama's Promises with the Obameter
The Obameter
will be keeping track of Obama's campaign promises...all 509 of them.
Hat tip to The Liberty Paperswho adds:
I was looking for that, how great!
He did break one though, he promised that he would hire no lobbyists....
And they don't show that...?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
It's official. President
It's official. President Obama is a politician. I'm not sure what 53% of American's are going to do.
Why do you think he won?
He's a politician. Imagine the chances of a non-politician winning are about zero.
I'm only half stupid
I thought, given the hero
I thought, given the hero worship, that he might be superhuman. Kinda like Superman only his kryptonite is cigarettes...
With all due respect Mr.
With all due respect Mr. President, that is not true.
Do you have the whole quote?
And remember Obama is a lawyer by trade, it seems that he's lying in a different way than any of the people seem to be claiming he is, as judged by a quick google search.
...intentionally misleading is lying.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
No rose-colored glasses here
They can throw money at the problem, so they will.
There are no guarantees that any of this stimulus package will actually do any good. And by good, I mean addressing the seemingly most pressing concerns of market instablility and job loss. Even Obama's promise of creating/saving 3 million jobs is a drop in the bucket; it comes out to about 260K per job "saved." And saved for how long? A year? Two? And are recently laid off office workers going to pick up shovels and build our new roads and bridges? Of course not.
I have already said my piece on this type of thing in this diary here
about Detroit. It's a horrendously expensive roll of the dice. And I personally don't like the odds. But one cannot realistically expect any other action from a newly-installed government eager to "fix" all that was done wrong by the proceeding Administration.
On the bright side, though, spending that amount of money will take time. Time during which things might change which may affect both public sentiment and policy.
My biggest fear, other than
My biggest fear, other than the incredible amounts of inflation we'll be creating, is that, once again, Keynesian economists will simply say it was "too little, too late" instead of admitting that their understanding is flawed. All I am seeing right now is pro-recovery act (of course it's not a stimulus :gag:) talking heads are quickly letting everyone know that it won't be enough to solve anything. It'll just help us out a bit.
Really...
You should be even more worried
because this little problem is not just restricted to our country. It is global and most other countries are doing everything they can to inject capital into their credit markets, nationalizing banks and all other manner of "keynesian' techniques so that a majority of their economies don't fall into a complete collapse.
It isn't just a minor problem or a small blemish we are dealing with. Quite literally the global financial system is broken and needs a reworking.
I'm only half stupid
Glutton for punishment, are
Glutton for punishment, are we?
No I want
things to improve. I definitely see an opportunity to rework things, though I doubt we agree on which direction that should take.
I'm only half stupid
You know one when you spot one, huh...;-)
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
We've got to fix our OWN backyard first.
We can't waste any more time right now trying to fix other people's messes. We've got to fix our own messed up back yard first. The people who thought that a global economy and a shrinking world were wonderful ideas, as well as globalization....aha...are THEY in for a big, big surprise! It's all very well that President Obama is sweet-talking everybody in the Mid-east, but we've got our own problems to deal with, which're quite deep. Let other countries fix their own messes. It's about time.
I'm not sure, even as a
I'm not sure, even as a libertarian, that I buy into the fact that the only reason we are so interconnected is because we choose to be. Therefore we can just shut ourselves out and everything will be just dandy. Given our current level of communication, something I value very highly, I no longer think we can exist as an island of awesome in a world of suck. You can quote me on that.
Reasons for being in the mess we're presently in:
It's all very well to condemn the previous administration that we had for both its domestic and foreign policies, but let's not forget that all the didn't start with G. W. Bush's Administration. It definitely all came to an ugly head and got worse under Dubya's Administration.
That being said, the years of United States dominence over other countries, which also involved the frequent overthrowing, or attempted overthrowing of governments whose policies didn't tally up with United States interests helped bring about the disastrous global economy, which is on the verge of collapse, if it hasn't collapsed already. The so-called "New World Order", which was, in fact, started by G. H. W. Bush Sr., shoiuld, in fact, be called the "New World DIS-Order", because THAT' S what it really is.
The United States just can't continue to be the Top Cop of the World. it's backfired horrendously.
I agree, but then the NeoCon in me comes out to ask...
...Iran just launched a satellite today, they are the dominant terrorist state on the planet, and they are developing nuclear capabilities...What are you gonna do there...sit around a table and chat about it with Barack?
That's just not adequate. Iran can not be permitted to develop a nuclear weapon, now you may say, they have the right to do what they want, they are a sovereign country, bla bla blah. But your right ends at the tip of my nose, and a nuclear capacity in Iran is a threat to the rest of the world, I don't want to live in the shadow of that.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
You have a NeoCon in you?
I'd get that looked at.
Seriously, though.... Using your self-professed libertarian beliefs, explain to me what right the United States has to determine which other countries launch satellites....
It's attitudes like yours that cause the rest of the planet to hate the U.S..... which is what breeds the terrorism in the first place.
If another sovereign nation wishes to deploy satellites in space, we have no business telling them they can't.
You get all hot and bothered every time the U.N. or other nations try to tell the U.S. what we can and cannot do... crying about losing our "national sovereignty" to the United Nations and the "New World Order".
Well... if we want the right of self-determination for ourselves, we have to back off and grant other nation's that same right.
If they threaten to use the satellites in a capacity against us, then that is a direct threat and an act of war....and only THEN can we justifiably act.
We have a code that we live by in this country, and it is embodied in our constitution. The right of self-determination.
You claim to be a libertarian... but then you spout off stuff like the above which is the antithesis of libertarianism.
I survived the Bush Administration
No, I am a Republican with many Libertarian values...
...as in LibertarianRepublican
.
So in many instances I would agree with you, however we are talking about a government with a mid evil Ideology, who openly preaches hate and death to America, Israel, and western society as a whole. They are the the primary supporter of terror in the world today, and are developing a nuclear capability.
If we were talking about an economic factor, or a social prejudice, or what have you, we would be in total agreement, but given the former conditions, it is a national security issue.
Pretty simple, agree with it or not.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Iran is the dominant terrorist state?
By what measure is that? What terrorist acts has Iran committed?
Why is it that you are fine liing in the "shadow" of the Russian uclear capacity, the French Nuclear capacity, the chinese nuclear capacity, the english nuclear capacity (not to mention our own), the Indian and Pakistani nuclear capacity, and the Israelis and North Korea nuclear capacity but Iran clearly can't have it?
Look on that list, and including Iran (even though they are nowhere near ready to build a bomb, despite the contuing attempts by the right to pretend otherwise) the most dangerous states BY FAR are Pakistan, Israel, and North Korea. In about that order. Iran is way down the list, seeing as they've got a long history of not starting fights with anyone.
The main danger from Iran is that we keep provoking them when if we just left them alone their native moderating forces would have a chance to thrive. Strangely so long as we keep treating Iran as belligerent they're going to be more belligerent than they would otherwise be.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I think you are eatting too many fruit loops...
I would put N.Korea in almost the same category as Iran.
Pakistan is a scary situation, and only lends itself to concerns of more nuclear proliferation, especially in a state like Iran.
I know you hate Israel, and I disagree totally with you on that so we'll leave it.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I'm sure you would
but that doesn't make it so. Take an objective look at the history of NoKo and iran and it's very clear that they aren't even close to the same risk.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Tlaloc...
With all due respect, I am quite comfotable with an assesment of NK that takes into consideration the reality
, and not the hope.
And as for Iran
.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
AEI and reality in the *same* sentence?
tee-hee
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Oh, please tell me what is dishonest, misleading or...
...otherwise incredulous about AEI?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Ah, so you've never read them then...
Seriously the AEI is ridiculously lacking in intellectual honesty. Right up there with Heritage.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
LOL...so those who do research that produces...
...results that are diametrically opposed to what you would like people to believe, are now intellectually dishonest.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Well not if they did so honestly
but that's not a worry with those guys. Seriously, they're pretty blatant in the way they mangle the data to get the result they want out.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Come on Tlaloc...
Please show us all these instances.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Sure
look at the the AEI page and here's the first article listed:
Iraq's Remarkable Election
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123380162010450689.html
The author (good lod Fred Kagan) someohow manages to leave out that at least three candidates were murdered and mortars were fired at polling places. Apparently for Fred "smoothly and peacefully" means "not a complete blood bath."
I also can't find any corroboration that the election has been certified by anyone as Kagan claims (everything I find says that certification still needs to be forthcoming, including a news article dated three hours ago).
they go on:
Small problem- Dawa is by no stretch of the imagination secular. Consider the following principles that all Dawa candidates much sign on for:Absolute sovereignty belongs to God.
from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Dawa_Party
Kagan simply disregards facts he find inconvenient in order to pretend things are how he wants them to be. Similarly Kagan's claim that Maliki's electorla rise is so surprising is more than a little disingenuous since, regardless of grassroots support, Maliki had US backing, which as the occupying military force had a bit of clout.
Kagan again:
Again, lies. The operations in 2008 were far from the ISF going man a mano with Sadr:
from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Basra_(2008)
Got that? The US provided air support, intelligence, embedded ground forces, and special forces. The ISF actually tried to attack Sadr's forces by themselves in the beginnign and got their butts kicked pretty badly, at which point the "coalition" stepped in with the laundry list above.
In addition it was widely recognized that the government's actions at the time were meant to weaken Sadr before the elections. To put it another way we helped Maliki to carry out a campaign of murder against those who would have voted for Sadr, and then sat back and had people like Kagan congratulate Maliki on a surprise upset over Sadr.
Again kagan conveniently neglects to mention that the Sunni tribes we courted to stop the insurgency are now claiming fraud in the vote and threatening to defy the new government militarily (with the arms we gave them no less). See here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/04/AR200902...
Need I go on? Kagan can't seem to go more than two sentences without comminting lies of ommission r commission. He's a hack, and not a very intelligent one given how transparently he lies.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
No you don't PF
First, you don't get to make up numbers. Your 260K per job 'saved' is completely bogus, but convenient for rousing the mob mentality.
Second, building a bridge requires, engineers, machinery, cement, steel, gives the locals a little retail business, so please don't misrepresent building bridges and roads as just office workers to ditch diggers. It's quite disingenious on your part.
Further, let's forget your 'fix all that's done wrong by the past administration'. Do you think there is really a choice but to make a good faith effort to grow the economy?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/opinion/26krugman.html?_r=1
I'm only half stupid
The road to hell.....
I'm not going to quibble over numbers...it's pointless and I included mine merely for illustration and illumination, not to so we can argue over them. The point is not the numbers -- it is the cost/benefit/risk components of the action. I doubt there is anyone alive who can foresee the future clearly enough to say "ah, it will be $X not $Y." I thought I said as much in my post. I see forest, you see trees, sometimes.
Do I think there is really a choice but to make a good faith effort? Look at the $700 billion bailout of the financial system. That was a good faith effort. It's worked amazingly well, hasn't it? Heh...look at the city of Galveston and its seawall: that was a good faith effort too, but Ike still won that encounter.
It's not a question of wanting to do the right thing. It's whether the right thing can be done at all. There are still things in this world that no amount of legislation, good intentions, or money, can change or prevent.
If you can explain to me exactly how this stimulus will affect, say, the soon-to-be-unemployed people of Seatlle, and within a timeframe that actually makes a real difference in the life of someone who knows he will be laid off next month, I will gladly listen. Otherwise, I stand by my assertion: they are merely throwing money at the problem.
The numbers are important
We could quibble for example whether 700 Billion or a Trillion would be enough. So the difference between 260 thou and 60- 100 thou is quite significant if it is per person, yes. So the number matters.
It's scary to think that $700 Billion isn't enough, because it isn't. Compared to the amount of bad credit globally, it's like giving someone a dime that needs a ten thousand dollar loan.
To compare an act of nature, a hurricane to a man made catastrophy, the global credit freeze is not a fair analogy, either.
The stimulus will be a safety net to the soon to be unemployed people of Seattle. It will prevent the Washington State Budget from going into default by being swamped with unemployment claims, which will allow time for new jobs to be created and at a bare minimum less jobs to be lost.
All hope is not lost.
If you feel like reading how every dollar of stimulus spent puts money into growing the economy you can click this link, where there is some discussion among economic scholars from different political sides of the spectrum.
http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny22_hinchey/morenews/102908HincheyJECHe...
For every $1 billion invested in transportation infrastructure, the U.S. creates 35,000 jobs and up to $6 billion in gross domestic product. Every $1 spent on food stamp benefits generates $1.73 in economic activity. Every $1 spent on unemployment benefits generates $1.64 in new economic demand. Every $1 in general aid to state government generates $1.36 in economic activity.
I know folks think I am overstating the case of the cliff our economy almost fell off of, but the TARP kept the global economy from collapsing as there was a massively frightening run on money market funds, that threatened to break the banks, which the TARP stopped.
IN the bigger picture of the US economy a trillion dollars isn't that much is it? =)
I'm only half stupid
It's scary to think that
And there it is. If it works, they're heros. If it doesn't then it wasn't enough. The Democrats are setting themselves up to do no wrong. What's impressed me is how quickly the Democrats were able to employ the same deplorable tactics that the Republican's have for the last 8 years.
Interesting.
The circumstances
and the priorities are a little different.
I don't believe the last eight years started off in the first week with a global lending crises, or the threat of losing a half a million jobs per month, and an ever sagging shrinking economy. So that is not a fair comparison.
I'm only half stupid
Fair?
Whats not fair about it...it is true...
...fair?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
"All hope is not lost"
I think you listen to too much television ;-) Contrary to what you hear, the world as we know it will not be ending soon. There will not be bread lines and soup kitchens feeding half of Denver. Really, there won't.
Will some people go through deprivation, both real and imagined? Yes. Is some form of prudent, well-thought-out action needed? Certainly. A trillion dollars just tossed out in hundreds of programs, in the (unproven) hope of doing something? Too rich for my blood.
I was more
responding to your tone of seeming hopelessness!
We shall see how it goes. I am all for the trillion dollar investment in the country! Sod, birth control, the whole lot. Throw it in. The more the merrier.
I'm only half stupid
Heh
I know you were...that's why I clarified it. You see hopelessness where there is only pragmatism.
And kudos for the last sentence. That position at least honestly describes what this "stimulus" really is.
Aw PF...
That last line is the antithesis of what is wrong with the stimulus... -4!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Spending equals
investment.
That has been the Republican mantra, right along with deficits don't matter.
I'm only half stupid
right along with deficits
And I'm happy that the American voter saw that it does matter. Now if only they'd see it's a problem the Democrats have, too.
So...
What was so bad... is good again?
You're too much...lol
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I think I may have already mentioned that
:-)
That doesn't preclude me from recognizing honesty.
If I missed it sorry?
Miss L:
And what I thought you said back:
Anyway, I know you are where you should be... ;-)
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
It's not an investment.
It's not an investment. I think that fundamental misunderstanding is my biggest problem with this whole plan. The spending of money we don't have is at the direct cost of future growth. The biggest thing Mr. Krugman misses every time is the future cost of the repayment of this debt. A factor of 1.6 or 1.65 or whatever arbitrary number he can generate with absolutely no data to back it up holds no weight with me. I know, without a doubt, that the debt we create now to artificially boost prices will come at a price of real growth later on.
Trumpets blowing, balloons falling...streamers streaming...
Finally a voice of sanity!
We can not borrow our way out of borrowing too much to begin with!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Best comment of the day goes to PF
Blue Ribbon.
If more people accepted the sincerity of this statement...regardless of whether or not they agree with its assessment...political discourse would be so much more civil. I get so tired of watching, all over the blogesphere, the sentiments you expressed there above get twisted into some dark, malicious and deliberate attempt to scuttle good will. It's not. When matters devolve into a serious question of who is trying to do the right thing vs. who is not, the fruitful part of the discussion is over. Well said. :)
Yes it is true ...
But in the interim we are like the guy who's been up all nite, and is throwing that last $5 in the slot.....
How are we getting back home?
That's why we should be proceeding along prudent effective lines, not the litany of bogus stimulus that is not earnest, we just don't have it to waste.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I saw the link source and
I saw the link source and read the first paragraph and immediately laughed. I followed the link just to be sure. Yep. Krugman.
I am wondering how Democrats
I am wondering how Democrats are rectifying this Recovery act with their understanding that trickle-down economics doesn't work. Is anyone here willing to dive into it?
We are hoping
the recovery is focused on the middle class, middle class tax cuts, tax cuts to lower middle class, jobs for the working class, that will add overall economic health of local municipalities.
I don't see it as trickle down, I see it as the reverse.
I'm only half stupid
The opposite of trickle down
The opposite of trickle down must be trickle up. If trickle down economics is supposed to work by providing capital directly to the top of a company, the management, then trickle up necessarily means providing the money directly to the employee.
You purport that injecting the capital somewhere in the middle (providing money to a company but giving explicit instruction on how it can be spent) is somehow not trickle down economics. I don't see how. Giving tax breaks to the middle class and money to the poor is much closer, I'll admit. But it's also exactly what Republicans constantly profess, although tweaked in a very subtle way.
The tax cuts involved are lollipops
The real hopes they have lie in the massive spending...and that hope is incredibly suspect.
The best stimulus they could provide is a payroll tax cut if they want "trickle up" and I don't see that on the table.
+5
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
That's silly
If you don't have a job, you don't pay taxes. A tax cut on 0 equals 0.
I'm only half stupid
everybody pays payroll taxes no matter how little you earn
and besides, you're shifting the goal posts a bit. I was answering the post you made in favor of tax cuts.
Play fair.
People with no
income don't get to play at all.
The biggest hurdle the markets face at present is the loss of individual purchasing power.
Lower taxes across the board, for businesses with fewer customers, and individuals with no income is not a solution.
I'm only half stupid
Well, I'll just go back to what you said a few posts up
My post was made in that context.
This is why I said you're moving the goal posts. I merely distilled what you said even further.
Pointing out that people who have no income don't pay payroll taxes is very obvious kinda misses the point.
Bird brain economics 101
Come on ML?
Lower taxes give individuals more dough to spend, and allow business owners to grow their busineses, hire more employees, which puts more money in the economy which means customers...
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Ok then...
Which is why you are 100% behind the $225 billion in tax cuts for the middle class that are in the Stimulus bill.
Right?
Right?!?!?!?
Using the political tactics of the right, one can properly say that the GOP voted, en masse, for higher taxes on the middle class by opposing the Stimulus bill.
After all... anyone who was against Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy in 2001 and 2003 was labelled as someone who wants higher taxes.
ps. I understand your objection to the $550 billion in spending. You disagree with Keynesian economics and the idea of spending our way out of a recession. I get that.
But it is a little hypocritical of the GOP to be against big spending now. See cartoon below:
I survived the Bush Administration
For the few this applies to.
The Bushies didn't dislike spending, they just dislike spending on things they don't like and called that being fiscally conservative and hoped since the "liberal" were calling them on it, they would have a built in bullet sponge to protect them while they spent away like Sarah Palin's assistant anywhere with a cash register.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
agreed.
n/t
Its just politics, I think
Its just politics, I think the Dems would likely do the same thing. It doesn't matter what Republicans do as far as benefit to the country goes, since Dems can do everything without them, therefore Republicans might as well think solely about politics. The only political hope the Repubs have is if the economy does poorly, therefore, it makes sense for Republicans to oppose anything the Dems come up with, not because that will damage the economy ( it won't make a difference) but just so that Republicans are on the other side of the Dems if the economy goes down.
That's just sad...
"The only political hope the Repubs have is if the economy does poorly."
It makes sense to oppose anything the Dems come up with so that repubs can put party before country.
Republicans could make a push to help small businesses thrive, and help small business start ups. The R's seem to beat one drum, tax cuts.
A business is more than just tax cuts. It involves the community and putting people to work. R's could focus on strong business ethics and small business and how putting people to work is great for cities. Carly Fiorina has some interesting views on this and It would be one way for R's to get out of the shrinking box they are stuck in.
To hope the US economy remains dim or spirals over a cliff for political gain is pretty shameless, in my opinion. No thanks, I don't want those kind of selfish self serving people running the country. And let me add praise the Lord that they aren't!
I'm only half stupid
A lot of condemnation there...
Where do get the batty idea Republicans "want" the economy to tank?
Of course we don't, we live here to you know.
But it is going to tank when Democrats are more worried about furthering their 40 year wish list, and not really getting the economy firing on all eoght cylinders!
That kills me...only $90B out of $825B is actual stimulating activity...and $735B on "the liberal agenda".
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Hmmmmm....
Rush Limbaugh: "I want Obama to fail."
You're basing that on an editorial in the Wall Street Journal. That's hardly an "unbiased" viewing of the bill.
That's like me trusting an opinion piece in the New York Times.
I survived the Bush Administration
Do I get to pick the craziest
Do I get to pick the craziest Democrat and use the garbage that comes out of their mouth to represent an entire party? If so that would bring an interesting dynamic to an otherwise useful discussion. Also, where might one find an "unbaised" analysis of the spending bill?
You should read more carefuly ML
I never said the Republicans should help the economy tank. The fact is that the economy is going to do whatever its going to regardless of what Republicans do, therefore, the only thing the Republicans should be doing now is providing an alternative to the Dems, if the Dems suceed, and everybody should hope they do, than they will likely win, no matter what Republicans do. However, if Dems don't suceed I would like to see the Republicans situated so that they can win - which they can do without putting country second - since what they do isn't really going to effect the country.
Parsing the ABC's
for the sake of it.
If the Republicans want to win, they might try broadening their base.
Playing pure obstructionist politics, with this constant nay-saying is so tiresome. It doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.
A: States need cash to keep their budgets afloat.
B: R's will gladly accept the federal injection of cash for their states.
C: To show their gratitude they will bite the hand that fed them while claiming that tax cuts for those with no jobs would have saved the day IF only democrats hadn't been so obstructionist.
LIke I said, it gets tiresome.
I'm only half stupid
lol I did not, and no fiscal conservatives were applauding...
GW's spending habits. There is nothing inconsistent with my position.
And frankly yes there is a big difference now than 8 years ago, and that is now we are in the sh!t...ok...it is not the time, ok it is never the right time, but certainly now, with all things considered, it is perfectly sensible to oppose spending!
The other thing is you act as if the spending was on Republican things, LOL! Hardly so!
...but what does all that have to do with lowering taxes on business anyway?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
So then..
What's fair about employed people who pay no taxes getting a....(Its stuck in my throat, I can't BS like Barry) "tax cut". Or a gift or free money, or wealth redistribution, or welfare or what ever you want to call it to disguise it?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Fair?
I thought the purpose of all this was to stimulate the economy, not to be "fair." Your whole argument has been that tax cuts will work better as a stimulus, becuase it puts money quickly and directly into the system. So giving tax cuts to people who need to spend it right away, as opposed to those who can afford to hang on to it, is much more quick and direct, is it not?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
That's a tricky
That's a tricky interpretation. But at least you're willing to admit that there is nothing fair about the Democrat's plans for recovery. I've had to listen to them complain about how unfair the Republican tax cuts were and so I was really interested in seeing their idea of fair.
Not only will tax cuts directly stimulate those who are creating value because of their productivity, but it also avoids devaluing their efforts through the printing of more currency. In addition, it is not a "tax cut" when giving money to people in excess of the money they earned during any given period (we'll pick a year since the IRS does). That was RW's point. If anything it's closer to the "trickle up" economics we were discussing.
Semantics
OK, so it's not a "tax cut." If that is the take home point of RW's post, then OK. No big deal. It's just words. That doesn't explain why it is a bad thing, though.
Am I interpreting your point correctly here: Giving money back to people who are already productive is more stimulative than giving money to people who are not.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Giving money back to people
Without question. But that's my opinion. Unproductive people's money just ends up in the hands of productive people anyway. And the unproductive just continue to be unproductive. I'm pretty sure of what your response will be. And I suppose you're right in that unproductive people do need bread and milk (and if most of them actually bought reasonable things like bread and milk with their handout I'd be a little less edgy about it), I feel that history has shown that if you continue to just give them bread and milk that things tend to stagnate. We're much better off if they're actually working for it. I won't bring up the age old saying...
Ok, that's what I thought you were saying
And you are probably correct, as far as the speed of stimulus is concerned. I think you are correct in saying that it will end up in the hands of productive people anyway (trickle up!), which is why I don't have a problem with starting at the bottom. Give those people who are jobless through no fault of their own a chance to recover, while those who are just going to be unproductive no matter what will just feed their handouts to someone who is productive. Seems like a win/win.
Yes, there will be people who don't buy reasonable things like bread and milk. That's why marijuana legalization and taxation should also be part of the stimulus package. :)
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
If I believed in giving money
If I believed in giving money to people who didn't earn it (don't read that to mean I don't appreciate the merit's of charity, but charity doesn't involve coercion) I'd probably still have a problem with giving it to people who will use it to buy cigarette's and televisions built in Isreal or China. But as I said before the only "stimulus" I'm willing to support that Democrats might have a snowball's chance of supporting is to give tax breaks (in the true sense) to people who are actually producing.
I'd love to lower our "corporate tax rate" to match most of Europe so we actually have a chance at competing without having to tax companies for "sending jobs overseas" because we are already taxing them too much. And I'd love to lower capital gains so that all the rich folks would bring their money back into the US instead of hiding it in other countries that aren't so interested in violating property rights.
Continuing...
besides, the whole idea of the stimulus, as it is advocated, is to prop up consumption to increase output via the multiplier.
One of the many problems with the spending idea is that the "stimulus" is hard to target in an effective manner to get the desired effect on idle or underused resources without a lot of waste and rent-seeking from firms looking for funds who are not idle or underused.
A tax cut on payroll taxes puts that magical money right back in the pockets of these marginal people who need more money in a very effective and targeted manner. They will spend it and increase aggrgegate demand. Isn't that the "big idea" by the whole Keynesian stimulus?
Granted, I don't think "aggregate demand" and the whole Keynesian logic of all spending being someone else's income...the idea the buttresses the stimulus spending...captures the essence of what is really at play or essential in understanding economic activity, but, if we are going to use this logic, this seems like the best way to get without wasting a lot of money on projects that don't require the stimulus as envisioned.
Paul Krugman is your "objective" defense to PF... LOL!
Good faith...? That's a...good one! OMG?
I knew your economic literacy was rather shallow...that much is painfully obvious...I just didn't know how shallow! lol
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I give Larry Kudlow
and others of different stripes there due. Kudlow has his valid points as does Krugman.
You can call it shallow if you like, but your way of doing things hasn't worked so well. It would seem that the separatist notion of all individuals will receive their just rewards in monetary terms has not only been hard on the lower class, but many in the upper eschelon's have had their stock portfolio's wiped out.
I'm only half stupid
With all due
...neither has yours. Neither the Republican's or Democrats can come away from any of this without blame. The system that failed was a shared one. One that responds to the power in office instead of any real measure of our productivity. And spare me the free market failed rhetoric. If that's all you've got you may as well not respond.
My God.
I have a twin.
:) LOL.
Horrors
%-l}
I'm only half stupid
I love you too, MissL
Nice to see you. How's the family?
Come on
you know I was joking.
My husband is working in Las Vegas for his company. Fortunately he belongs to a union so he gets compensated for his mileage, and gets subsistence pay to live there while he works. No he doesn't make $78 an hour, he makes about $27 an hour. He works hard and performs a valuable service.
He drove his 2001 4X4 Chevy Silverado made with union labor, with 275,000 miles on it.
My friend who is NOT in a union gets paid $12 an hour, does not get paid for the miles he drives to work out of town.
:-)
I'm only half stupid
Do they perform the same
Do they perform the same job?
LOL.
you ARE my twin. ;)
If you are thinking the same
If you are thinking the same thing I'm thinking I'm going to start to wonder...
well, when we ask the same question at the same time
you gotta wonder a little. ;)
So what's your flavor?
Are you more Hayekian or Rothbardian?
Maybe that'll make for some separation.
Are you pulling a GR Johnny?
...hmmm
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
??
What do you mean?
He was imitating Skymutt the other day...FUNNY!
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Hayek. Rothbard went a bit
Hayek. Rothbard went a bit father than I'm comfortable with...
Me too.
No difference there either. ;)
I like Rothbard but yes, he's a bit whacky even if he's right in some abstract sorta way.
Basically the same
The kid has one of those freaky libertarian bosses. :-)
No vacation pay. No sick pay. No holidays. Pay your own taxes and all that.
I'm only half stupid
Basically?
I suspect there's a lot more relevant detail there than you are willing to disclose.
I'd say your husband should
I'd say your husband should count his blessings because "basically" he is overpaid.
Yeah he should
work for $9/hr, work 80 hours a week, spend at least 40 hours doing research on which investments funds will bring a good return for his retirement, then maybe take a class or two in his spare time.
Annoying comment.
I'm only half stupid
annoying sense of
annoying sense of entitlement...
Not......
Consider it a business contract that is honored, that benefits the company with experienced reliable well done work. It takes a burden off of society by providing health care, and retirement.
How awful that someone should be paid a halfway decent wage for their hard work and contribution to our civil society.
I would guess that you think severance pay is an entitlement also. Such an unnecessary expense to the company, especially the higher ups that get a half a million just for moving on.
I'm only half stupid
Don't worry, it makes it's
Don't worry, it makes it's way to the rest of us in the form of higher prices. The "burden" can never be lifted from society unless you think the services rendered have no real value in the literal sense.
I'm missing the entitlement
ML's husband's employer decided to use union labor. If they don't want to pay such "inflated" wages, then they can refuse to renew the next contract and hire people at market rates. Why haven't they?
Perhaps the employer finds they are getting better value from the union since turnover is lower.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
That's fine. It doesn't
That's fine. It doesn't change the fact that he's getting paid more than he would if he wasn't a member of the union.
So naturally
there's no way the non-union guy is underpaid, because...
uh...
Wait why do we know the union guy is overpaid again?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Because someone is willing to
Because someone is willing to do the exact same job for less money. Duh.
Splitting hairs there?
Just because someone is willing to work for less, doesn't mean the employer would actually do that [see above avoidance of turnover].
Is saying they are overpaid, any different than saying a brand name good are overpriced because there are also generic goods?
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Nope. There is a perceived
Nope. There is a perceived quality difference. And had either ML or Tlaloc mentioned that he may very well be that much more productive I would have conceded. However their first reaction was to defend the union. In which case I know they are both full of it.
If it's not explicitly mentioned, then it's not mentioned?
Tlolac's response was rather brief for one to know exactly every detail he was covering with his quip.
"Perceived quality difference" and "projected savings due to reduced cost of hiring and training new employees"
No perceived quality difference there?
There are/have been a lot of so called "low skilled" jobs with a dearth of actual people able to do the job well within a few months, and those jobs can have a high turnover. If company wants to hire Union labor to reduce turnover. Even if it can ever be shown that a particular company didn't save money based solely on the decision to hire Union labor, it's still not unlike buying an insurance policy that was never used.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
What does the union provide
What does the union provide that becomes the difference for turnover rate if the company could just provide the same benefit to an employee that is not a member? You just said that if a company's main concern were turnover or some other metric you haven't mentioned that you feel a union provides then all they would really need to do is provide the same compensation. So why wouldn't they? And let's not forget that unions haven't exactly been popping up like hotcakes to fill this perceived need among companies. The ones that exist have existed for quite some time and their entrenchment with a company is all that keeps them there. Just because the cost/benefit of firing an entire workforce and then hiring new non-union employees is so prohibitive it does not mean the union is worth the cost on a per unit basis. It simply means they are so far entrenched that the company could never survive the transition. Do not mistake that for a partnership. There would be a different term used for the relationship if this were a biological situation...
And yes, when conversing via forum, if something is not explicitly mention, then it's not mentioned.
And we're in the blue
Running a comment off the page border is God's way of telling us that we should drop the thread or reparent it near the bottom.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Heh
You don;t really believe that do you? Are you telling me that if a guy with four kids at home takes a job that pays less then his counterpart with the same job who is paid more, but was able to negotiate a better deal because he wasn't so desperate, suddenly is overpaid.
Your yiewpoint conveniently removes any burden on the employer to pay a fair wage by saying that any amount they can browbeat someone into accepting is automatically fair.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Your viewpoint requires that
Your viewpoint requires that I believe someone is owed compensation simply because they exist and not because they've earned it. We're not talking about this person's right to free speech. We're talking about this person's value to their employer. You are attaching emotions to an analysis that requires none. Remember that this analysis requires that all things are equal. As I said in another post, it may very well be that ML's counterpart is worth the money. And that may be true. But that wasn't either of your first assertion. You both jumped to the conclusion that he had a right to that money. He does not.
I'd say he does
I'd go as far as to say, philosophically speaking, he does have a right to the money. However, I can't find a way to ensure that people get what they "deserve" without that cure being worse than the disease.
It all goes back to human nature. We are very simply bastards of the highest order.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Many business have to carry two...
Paver's, tree trimmers, stone masons...
...they often have one crew that works at market rates, charges market rates, and is competitive.
And then they have the Union crew to get the contracts where they will only hire union, municipalities, etc, ...and they pay way too much, they charge a ridiculous amount, they are not competitive with anyone, ...and you and I pay for that.
Unions. You have to love them?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Warning this is sarcasm
and you and I pay for that.
Oh, you have to pay for that? Sure I don't mind giving the union workers a bit of extra slop on the side so long as you have to pay for it.
Me, I don't pay enough in taxes for it to matter. I'll bet it doesn't matter for you either.
</end scarcasm>
But really, this is the reason why it doesn't matter to most. If it costs an extra million to pave my road because the City of Columbus is using union contractors, the waste in tax dollars to me is somewhere around a nickel. I only have to pay a nickel more, but I'm getting much more than a nickel more for those poor workers. That is the disconnect at work.
In the agreggate it matters, but person by person it doesn't.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
An Addendum
Within the sarcasm tags you forgot to add:
This is not a zero sum game, the union workers making more could lift everyone up, since they would have more discretionary income and help to increase the velocity of money.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
WWMFS...
Just ask yourselves one question;
What would Milton Friedman say?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
"Help Help I've been buried alive!"
That's probably not what you were going for but I'd lay money that's what he'd say right now...
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I wish that were the case...
...it'd be nice to have him around right now.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
No one EVER decided to use union labor! (Of free will that is..)
They are FORCED to use it, to get the contract.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Sort of like
corporate lobbyists, dripping with money, forcing their way into the halls of Congress to snare a contract for their big boss man.
The corporations pay the lobbyists fees, so it is an expense that has to be passed on to the consumer thereby raising the cost of their product.
I don't see how flocks of high paid lobbyists are that much different from unions do you?
After seeing the huge increase in health care costs in the last decade, with premiums often doubling, I'd say union labor looks like a bargain by comparison.
I'm only half stupid
I agree with you that
I agree with you that lobbyists are as detrimental to a free market as anything of which I am aware. But since you aren't into free markets I'm not sure why you feel this way.
Either/or
Capitalist markets do the most good if they operate ethically within the law.
I see free market fundamentalists as radical zealots who have a disdain for the law and civil institutions that make up our government (courts, public schools.)
I see ethical commerce as the engine that drives cities by providing the opportunity for folks to have a sense of dignity and self worth by earning a living wage that provides for themselves and their families.
I see lobbyists dripping with payola as trying to kill market competition by enabling monopolies.
I'm only half stupid
??
I read that several times and can't really make sense of it.
Really?
Boy, that sure puts you in some great company there Miss L, but I'm glad to finally see you just come out and admit what you're all about, some of history's real winners are in that group you are a part of... Yikes?
I'll tell you what, why don't you pick yourself up a copy of "Capitalism & Freedom", it may lubricate your mind just enough so the rest of your head can finally be extracted from your a$$.
Here's a head start...no pun intended. lol
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Key Word = fundamentalists
Purists that swear to uphold strict maintenance of the free markets doctrine, that see regulations, ie: laws, and taxation as an act of violence perpetrated against them by the government.
Modern free market fundamentalism has become associated with a reaction against social and political 'leftists'.defined by political rhetoric as socialists/marxists who promote wealth redistribution as social justice thereby creating the famed moral hazard where compassion is seen as weakness and the ability to make profits is seen as justice.
I could carry on with inflammatory rhetoric that feeds into this fundamentalist view but I won't. Suffice it to say that these fundamentalists have a negative view of public education and the justice system.
Politically this melds in easily with Christian fundamentalism and the view that government is immoral, public education is 'dangerous' and the courts are 'activist'.
I'm only half stupid
No...
So Film Noir sounding Miss L...lol.
Let me see, you are implying that hiring a person, persons, or firm, to gererate revenue, is an expense that must be passed along to the consumer when they purchase the goods or services of said company, and you are trying to say that it is comparable to a company that operates on a totally artificial scale of economy?
No, it is not even comparable.
That being said, I would submit too that the big interests ie., auto, drug, and communication, etc. companies that do so much, if not most of the lobbying, are union anyway. So your point is even worse for the union position dear.
However, I am talking about the great majority of businesses that employ the most Americans, small and mid sized companies that do not lobby anyone. That is where the great separation between organized labor and free enterprise are greatest, and there is no question but that unions have created an unnecessary, costly, overly bureaucratic, inefficient layer of burden on the economy, and the biggest drag of that is, because they have lobbied their way into being the exclusive providers for the government, health care, etc sectors...we pay big time for that layer!.
Union days are long gone, they are useless, and worse.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
If you were to systemically break down
why you justify certain kinds of lobbying and special interests over others, you'd really get to the bottom of this whole matter.
Me, I despise all special interest lobbying that seek to twist the economic/legal game in their favor. I don't discriminate because the ACT OF LOBBYING for special treatment is what I oppose.
I suspect it isn't so cut and dry for you. It's not lobbying itself...it's who does it, in which case, I think the complaining about corporate lobbying is a cover for something else.
Do you see a difference?
I don't
.
More free market lip-service. But make no mistake. He is a lobbyist.
empahasis mine. Not only has he given money to the Democratic party, but he is ready to strong-arm them if they don't do what
they're toldthey promised.With that logic
No has even taken a job on free will, they have been forced to to eat food.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
No, not really.
I might agree with your assertion if companies actively went out and found a pre-organized, pre-trained union production workforce to man the machines on their production lines. The more accurate picture is one of employees who were already employed and already trained who then organize out of a sense of entitlement. While RW's point may be a bit strong, I think I understand his point.
Union contractors (trade labor) is another story. And you might find it interesting enough that I have no problem with union trade labor because they are hired based on a bidding process (at least I perform a bid process). There are cases of existing production unions requiring that only trade union workers perform and work which I don't agree with. But I hire whomever I feel will perform the best job for the money. Sometimes I hire union and sometimes I don't. In this case I feel the union performs an excellent job for it's workers. They take care of health benefits by joining a large pool of people to get discounts and so on. They can manipulate work forces to move workers around where needed. And another interesting tactic use is to collect a certain amount of profit from all jobs and pool it so that they can underbid jobs so as to cut out non-union trade labor workforces. All of these things I have absolutely no problem with. Whatever lets me complete my job for the least amount of capital.
Entitlement
I think it is pretty clear that you did not mean it this way, but the phrase "a sense of entitlement" often carries a pejorative connotation. The implication being that they merely think they deserve something, but actually don't. I'm pretty sure you are using it without any judgment of actual deservedness, right? I am not entirely sure that would be true of RW, though! :)
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Hmmm? What else would you construe...
"a sense of entitlement" to mean?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I thought I spelled it out pretty clearly
It means believing that one deserve something, and carries no value judgement. It can imply that the person using the phrase doesn't believe they deserve it, but that is not necessarily the case.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
What other case would you expect it to apply then?
PS - I said what other meaning would you construe it to mean? I know what the damn expression means in plain english.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Rephrasing my previous comment
It can be construed to mean that the workers believe they deserve something, which they may or may not deserve. Or it can be construed to mean that the workers believe they deserve something, which they do not deserve.
I'm not really understanding what you are not getting, honestly. Does this rephrasing get my point across better?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Sorry, magilson, but
I tend to agree with missliberties on this one. Any business that has a union is worth the weight in gold, especially nowadays, when unions have become all but irrelevent. Unions protect workers against unfair labor practices, including retaliatory or unnecessary lay-offs, help provide healthcare, and, sometimes pay for mileage for commuting back and forth to work, and, they often provide workers with a decent wage to support him/her and/or the family, if they have one. Also, unions come in handy if a worker has a grievance of some sort of other to file, plus they ensure paid vacations, sick days, etc.
I, along with the rest of the
I, along with the rest of the employees I work with at our production facility, are alloted all of those things without the need for coercion. And may I remind you that unions do not, in fact, provide anything with threatening the people that actually do provide them.
Interestingly enough, a strong majority of grievances filed in 2008 were in fact filed against a fellow union worker and not the parent company.
Different fields
business sectors that rely on highly skilled workers generally don't need to be unionized because the employer knows they can't treat them too bad. Intel wasn't unionized, except for the construction trades of course, not because our employer was uniqely magnanimous but because the employees were generally too valuable to treat the way most companies try.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Oh IM...yikes... -4!
Unions are bad news for all involved, except the union leaders.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
That's good.
Do your husband and friend do the same job?
I agree that
the responsibility is shared.
ON that free market thing, well, it might be a wonderful notion, sort of like democracy is a grand ideal, but I don't think there is a pure example of either one. Can you give me an example of a functioning free market system? Is there a country where such an ideal exists?
(Reminding you that I did not say capitalism or the markets are bad.)
I'm only half stupid
No. I can't. There isn't
No. I can't. There isn't one. I'd really like to give one a try.
That being said I don't think Russia was a proper attempt at communism, etc., etc., etc. The merits of a free market system far exceed those of any other. As has been said by others, traditional liberals (modern libertarians) feel they are optimists with respect to human behavior where as modern liberals (I'm going to say it, socialists) feel they are realists with respect to human behavior. A long time ago we decended from the same ancestor...
Indeed
It's hard to believe we have the same geneology as social democrats. We were once the original Left. Somehow, our social democratic brethern forgot why that was so.
BTW, I prefer the term "social democrat" to socialists. "Socialist" is a tad strong. Most members of the modern Left are not really socialists per se.
That's fair. I get lost in
That's fair. I get lost in what everyone likes to be called these days.
Well if
there is one, as in no such thing exists, how can you say that the merits far exceed those of any other.
I maintain that capitalism with some regulations to soften the hard edges (pure unadulterated greed) functions well within a democratic system.
If you are so optimistic about humans how do you explain why I have to suffer (my shrinking retirement fund) because of a handful of insane investment bankers.
I'm only half stupid
Think of it like Oxygen, MissL
Our air is not pure oxygen but it's the oxygen content of it that sustains us. The more oxygen, the better. The less oxygen, the more the body struggles to function.
You should know that from watching visiting teams wheeze at Mile High.
No no no
I can't do that.
Oxygen is an element of nature.
Markets are man made.
The comparison is invalid.
I'm only half stupid
The analogy is perfectly valid
in answering your question.
Not to me
This is why I have such a hard time with you. You make blanket statements that are inaccurate.
I don't accept your analogy, because I don't have the same philosophy as you do.
Oxygen is an element of the universe that has been around before mankind.
Markets are not the same.
Done.
I'm only half stupid
analogies are just that. Analogies
The idea is to view the "analogy" in the spirit it is intended and not in a way that deliberately misses it by dwelling on differences in the items of the analogy that are not in play or relevant to the analogy.
Free markets is also two words while oxygen is one. Free Markets is plural while oxygen is singular...but that observation...like yours above...don't figure or matter in the intent of the "ANALOGY".
To be very deliberately basic about this, let me say this:
The fact that oxygen is an element and markets not..is not a relevant point for the analogy to work.
Likewise, for the fact that oxygen has been around since near the beginning of universal history and markets not.
The fact that markets are not the same in the areas that you point out doesn't matter because that's not where the point of the analogy lies.
The point lies in the existence of oxygen in air among many other elements and the fact that the oxygen is what gives us life and not the other elements like nitrogen.
In the "ANALOGY", free market aspects of our economic function are like the oxygen among many other factors that are in play.
This is why I avoid analogies
This is why I avoid analogies in all cases but one. Jokes.
How do you get away with this stuff Miss L....
A) is for Analogy, and...
B) is for bully
C) Coherence
D) Dedication
....yada, yada, yada,
Hey babe... L is for logic...
Try applying some sometime.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
It's more valid than you realize
since more oxygen is only good to a point, after that it becomes extremely hazardous to your health as oxygen is both explosive and highly corrosive.
So, yeah, it is just like free markets- too much will kill you.
for reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
While I was aware of that as I wrote
That wasn't what I meant. You're taking the analogy a bit too far.
And that is quite a statement considering there's nothing behind it besides an affinity for such ideas.
Besides, your idea of "free market" usually turns out to be corporatism or something that effect.
Spoken like someone who's never been to Bhopal
If you see what I mean.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
no. i don't.
but feel free to explain.
Bhopal, India
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Don't confuse free markets
Don't confuse free markets with morons in charge of chemicals. Should we go over disasters that have occured at union facilities?
"Call your own foul" rule is in effect
The assertion was not that it happened, but that it was more likely to happen within a given industry.
And I was just giving a link, to clarify Tlaloc's post.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
I will concede that chemical
I will concede that chemical spills are far more likely within the chemical industry.
The spill occured
because UC didn't feel like spending money on a safe plant. They wanted to do things on the cheap so they outsourced to India for cheap labor and then skimped on the safety. They could do this because the safety regulations and enforcement in India wasn't nearly good enough.
Hence why this ties in- you said nobody dies from an excess of free markets. Counter example provided.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
You don't think examples
You don't think examples exist for the polar? Go read the latest OSHA report. You might be suprised.
Free markets are natural too...
I won't go into the details...
Giving loans to people who don't qualify is un-natural... ;-)
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Firstly, we don't have a
Firstly, we don't have a democratic system. And I'd love to save the last remaining shreds of the republic that we have. Second, there are no garauntees with the market. It's unfortunate that you poorly invested your retirement but you did expect to have enough money to live on by giving it to investment bankers, who take risks. Had they "got away" with their "insane" plans you wouldn't have said a word. You only care about what people do when it doesn't work out. A sliding moral scale if I've ever heard one.
Let's try again....
I did not invest poorly, sir. The bankers invested poorly. Let's not lay the blame for someone else's mistakes where they don't belong.
That's a sliding moral scale if there ever was one. Investment bankers screw up and it's MY fault. I should take moral responsibility because the other guys is a crook. Please. That defies the imagination.
I suppose I should go to jail for someone else's crime? That's a beautiful system.
I'm only half stupid
I'm with your foil on this one
As the away message says:
What part of "not FDIC insured" don't you understand?
Want a safe investment? Your local bank has certificates of deposit or you can put all your money in government bonds.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Unless you were completely
Unless you were completely ignorant of the risks, which I'm beginning to think is often your case, then there is no one to blame but yourself. Did they give you a garauntee of return? Are you sure they even commited a crime or were just caught off gaurd by the market? Like I said, you couldn't care less what they do so long as you can keep making donations to NPR into your 90's... Maybe if you had been screaming at Mr. Clinton 10 years ago about the last removal of the almighty regulation it would lend credence to your anger. Somehow I'm guessing you were too busy defending him his purgery charges.
Oops.....
You went around the bend on that one. NPR? Clinton?
Better stop now, we are getting off track.
But I enjoyed most of our conversation. :)
I'm only half stupid
Spot F'ing On....
Hello!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
double post. weird.
double post. weird.
That being said...
show me any system of government besides free markets where things have worked out at all?
Free markets are the only case I know of where the lowest standard of living far out performs the lowest standard elsewhere. Free markets, capitalism, democracy, they are all the only form of government that has truely improved the lives of the people in them.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
That'd be compelling
if things weren't a hell of a lot better in a number of european countries that have systems with far more regulation and social safety nets.
You know...
I always laugh when conservatives bring up the US becoming like France ro Germany as a bad thing. Oh god, the horrors of getting decent vacation time and universal health care. Woe is me!
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I'd be interested as to which
I'd be interested as to which aspects of European life is better? It's my understanding they're doing even worse over there than we are. And that's with regulations to keep people from making shady deals.
I won't speak for Tlaloc
But the 6 weeks of paid vacation for just about everyone under the sun seems to be a lot better than my 2. Employment law is a lot better for the worker. IIRC, there is no such thing as an at-will employee over there (ie. they can't just fire an employee unless they have a very compelling reason) or at the very least, it isn't used very often.
I'll throw in the free post secondary education and extended maternity/paternity leave for good measure.
Of course, this is all in the eye of the beholder. You might value liberty more.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
You might value liberty
I do. And I'm not sure I will understand anyone who doesn't.
What use is "liberty"
when it is only the freedom to be a wage slave? Do you really imagine you have more liberty when tied to your desk than the average frenchman does on vacation?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
If that comparison was equal,
If that comparison was equal, I'd bother responding. Do you think the average frenchman has more liberty tied to their desk when I'm on vacation? Try again.
The point being
that you spend way more time tied to your desk then they do. At least on average, you personally may not, but most americans do, by a wide margin.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Don't forget the flip side, Stinerman
-higher unemployment
-weaker purchasing power
-less disposable income
-restrictions on getting a second part time job
There's much more.
Like I said elsewhere, I love Europe and used to live there. I'm still very connected to it. But a real appraisal of life there is never as great as many here would make it out to be.
I'll take that
1) Who cares what the unemployment rate is when those who are unemployed have the necessities of life funded by the government?
2,3) I'd like to see some data to back that up. Taxes are higher, but most of the necessities are "free" after taxes. I've seen many of Europe's rich claim that they're better off in Europe than America because they'd have to pay out of pocket what they get for free in Europe. They believe the increased tax burden pays for itself.
To me, a $140 premium is no different from $140 in taxes. What I'm looking for is value at the day's end.
4) Why would I want a 2nd job? The money I make from my full time job and the services I receive are more than enough to get me by.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Like I said, Stiney
The grass is always greener from the other side.
It's easier for you to dismiss such concerns from over here.
I always find it funny
to watch American Leftists glorify Europe the way they do.
I have a lot of friends and family in Europe...left, center and right...and they never seem to have the romantic vision of their life there the way American Leftists do. I guess the grass is always greener from the other side.
I love Europe and spent many fun years there but I also see it for what it really is...good and bad...with no unjustified praise or condemnation.
A few months ago, I showed 2 of my French friends (center and center-Left) who were staying with me for 6 months some exchanges here and elswhere in the blogesphere where Leftists defended the "The European Way" at all costs. They were somewhat embarassed and couldn't help but laugh because they saw blind praise being taken too far and far beyond what is warranted.
It's life...just like here and with its own problems and frustrations.
This is the same impression I
This is the same impression I got from co-workers in France when I visited on business last year. They have as many complaints of their system as we have of ours.
I was there in '06, and it was crazy...
...The French are disgruntled, they are overly taxed and burdened by government and they would be the first to tell you!
I had one old fella tel me..
Then he tried to quote TR..;
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
He didn't get it right...I bought him another bottle and went on about my way, but he stays with me.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
My 2 french friends found it funny
that we were discussing DOING things that they are trying to change or UNDO because they are not working properly and leaving people frustrated.
Tlaloc doesn't believe you...evidently?
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Of course it isn't perfect
The question is whether it is better or worse. The answer depends on who you are. If you're a corporate executive the it isn't because the rules make it hard for you to screw workers for your benefit. If you;re a greedy sum'bitch then no because what you care about is cash, cash, and more cash. If you're, well, anybody else then yeah the ability to have a life outside of work sounds pretty nice, frankly.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I'd say that's a bit ignorant
I'd say that's a bit ignorant but it would appear whatever nytimes article you've read has thoroughly convinced you enough that further discussion is pointless. I can stick to the discussions I've had with frenchman. And you can stick to whatever evidence you have. Fair enough?
Are you serious?
France? Do your homework bro!
Germany still works on a free market model, at least to the extent that any of us do.
So laugh yourself onto the internet and get some facts.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
There will always be a great deal of confusion on this
Leftists like to dwell on such social democratic reforms like 6 weeks vacation and universal health care as somehow changing or negating the fact that Europe still works on a free market model.
There's a plethora of interventions in the market both here and there...yet...the system still works on a free market capitalist model.
But the confusion comes in where the roots of general quality of life increases come from.
All the reforms and programs mean nothing and are moot and infeasible without the free market model that generates the social insitutions to enable a mentality we take for granted in a free society and the wealth to pay for such programs. People like to slip past this fact.
Ok, but...
In those European darlings, what can really be said, ya its cold but, they are taxed to death, no pun intended, and...well hell...
Where's the Bill Gates, The Oprahs, The Will Smiths and yes, where are the Obama's...
They are few and far between....
IN AMERICA BABY! Its happening everyday!
Its like English John...while the rest of the world yearns to be like us, while English is the dominant language in business, we have a POTUS who thinks we are the ones who should learn Norwegian, and a liberal class that does not appreciate what we have.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Quite obviously
The answer here is federalism. That way those traitorous Marxists can have their Norwegian Liberal Paradise in Massachusetts without bothering their friends in PA or CA.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
I really, really, really,
I really, really, really, really, really wish that were possible. But eventually they start to "interpret" the constitution to reach over into the pocket's of their fellow American pig-dog capitalists to punish them for their greed and so on.
If all the socialists could move to their state of choice and leave the rest of us out of it I would be the happiest person on planet Earth. But it is in their nature to violate individual rights in the name of helping the majority.
It cuts both ways, friend
The libertarians or conservatives will do the same to help their brothers in the minority in these socialist paradises.
I think it is just human nature want others to submit to your will. I know I certainly do. However, it pays to overcome raw will and want with reason.
I'm happy to leave you alone if you're happy to leave me alone.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
It's hard for an illusion to fail
there never has been and never will be a free market to fail. What there have been are attempts at making something close to a free market, and those have in fact failed spectacularly.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
The reality
of this hard cold fact seems to escape the free market utopians. ;)
I'm only half stupid
The fact that it's a mixed
The fact that it's a mixed system drives the question as to which part caused the batch to spoil. Like I said, we could link swap all day but....
That was the point of the oxygen analogy.
...
The part that is human
nature. Humans, foiled again.
I'm only half stupid
May I ask what part of
May I ask what part of economics isn't driven by human nature? I'm betting you haven't really thought this one through...
Oh boy...Kudlow and Krugman...how surprising...?
So your take on economics is...Kudlow and Krugman...
Let me guess ML...
I bet your favorite football team is the Patriots!
...and baseball you're a Yankees girl!
...and you love to watch American idol!
and...well you get the point.
If not, your economic sensibilities run contrary to the rest of your life?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Red Wing, I owe you a coke
The house passed the stimulus bill and the republicans stayed true to their pledge to vote against. Sounds like they remained unanimous. Congrats.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Hey thats big of you... ;-)
LOL! I was just as surprised, it's been a long time since we could count on standing on our principles...!
Maybe the Obamanation was indeed the best thing that could have happened to the GOP.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I'll say this before I head off to bed
Seeing as it's 1:00am back East and I'll probably have to go back to work tomorrow...
The GOP is going all in on the fiscal stimulus plan. They better hope to Hades that the economy is still in shambles come November 2, 2010 or they're going to get shellacked even worse in the mid-term elections. If they are on the right side of the bet, they could make some decent gains.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Well considering BO's stimulus...
2010 is optimistic at best!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Short attention spans
The concerns being expressed about this stimulus package are such that will affect the future, not this year or next. The public's inability to look past today is rather like a CEO focusing on this quarter's returns and not future viability, because that is what he is being judged upon.
Just like with energy independence: we could/should be doing things today that wean us off of oil, but given the perceived abundance of it no action will be taken, and any politician who (perhaps very prudently) suggests we "save" some oil by switching to higher priced or less effective alternatives now, well, that politician won't be heeded.
Must be analogy week here at SC ;-)
On the topic of oil...
On the topic of oil... I would absolutely love it if we stopped giving money of any kind to oil companies. That way the price of looking for new forms of energy would truely be reflected in the cost at the pump and would drive consumers to make much smarter financial decisions. Our current method of spreading their research costs out among all taxpayers merely hides the real cost of oil and futher prevents us from evaluating it's true cost.
No problem, man
I figured you'd be happy. Personally I don't have strong feelings about the stimulus.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
No fake
This time I'm not getting a check directly from Uncle Sam!
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Well, those of you who poo poo'd the Islamic problem in...
...Europe, welcome home
.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman