Monday + Tuesday Open Thread
The Pittsburgh Steelers are the world champions once again after defeating the Arizona Cardinals by a score of 27-23. The club has now won more NFL championships (6) than any other franchise.
Possible Commerce Secretary Judd Gregg (R-NH) said that he will not accept the nomination unless a Republican is appointed in his stead . Such a move may be important because the Democrats would have a 60-40 advantage in the Senate -- enough to break any Republican filibuster if party discipline prevailed.
Happy Groundhog Day!
Submitted by stinerman on Mon, 2009-02-02 10:56
Tags:

Comments :
Geeze, more Democrat tax evasion.
It is not surprising that Obama is defending Daschle here. He is willing to defend domestic terrorists like Ayers, so a little tax evasion is nothing.
Tom Daschle. Al Franken. Al Sharpton. Perhaps we wouldn't need to raise taxes if the Democrats started paying theirs. Hmmm.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Don't forget our new head of the Treasury...
...Tim Githner...a solid tax evader in his owh right! LOL!
This is a joke, he took all kinds of bene's from insurance companies, I can not see this continuing, Daschle must go down.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
The IRS isn't
quite the boogy man that some people think. If they think that your intention was in fact not to cheat the government they are more than happy to work with you on repaying your debt.
Sweet opposition is music to your ears.
You can be proud of your new RNC chair. He is rallying the troops to oppose Daschle, who is quite popular in Congress, and has cultivated many good relationships over the years. He is known as South Dakota honest, whatever that means.
I'm only half stupid
So now you support...
... a guy with so many potential ethical conflicts...
How can this guy address tax reform on behalf of the American people when he has been bought of...
Can't we even agree that this guy is not right for this job...geeze?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
He's not supposed to address tax reform
Unless HHS is displacing Treasury.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Oh I know, we already have a tax evader in treasury...
...I think something like this, which would get most people threatened with imprisonment, is enough to deny someone any of these high level government positions, but if thats not enough, he has been out speaking and gathering checks from Insurance companies? I mean can't we find a good guy without those sort of factors going for them?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Doesn't this prove the conservative position?
Namely that the tax code is way too complicated and complex.
If all these supposedly on-the-ball politicians can't figure out their tax burdern then how are the rest of us going to do it?
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Yes.....!
//
I'm only half stupid
Yes? Did you say....yes?
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Technical Jargon
How do you already know it's tax evasion and not tax avoidance or ignorance of the tax code?
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
And..he's gone..
As seen here
. His performance czar also is withdrawing because of tax reasons
. Geithner is already confirmed, but both of these are good moves, and it takes some sting out of the "Obama is not for good government" arguments..
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Too many folks with tax problems
The first guy got thru with a fight, and now it's not very surprising that there won't be a second. I'm perfectly okay with the fact that Daschle went down. In fact it would have been fine with me if Geithner went down because I consider his tax error more than a "mistake", but he's confimed... fine, I hope he does a good job.
Hopefully, this sends a message: If you want to get a plum position in a future administration, pay your tax. That's a message I have absolutely no qualms with.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Funny, his tax problem was around a limo service right...
Where's that old Pontiac today...?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
1971-Unknown
A penny of free services not reported on tax returns is a penny earned, I guess.
Tom and Rush should become BFF's.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
I'll file this right next to Fred Thompson's red pickup truck:
But even though Fred's a phony, you seem to be able to look the other way
...
I have a secret crush on Dianne Feinstein :-D
Fred Thompson says
@ about 9:00 mark
...
Joe the Plumber, of course, didn't pay his tax AND didn't bother to get a plumbing license
... two strikes for Joe! I thought that Republicans believed in favoring those who played by the rules, but apparently phony Repulicans offer understanding to tax cheats and scofflaws!
I have a secret crush on Dianne Feinstein :-D
In Soviet Russia, comment post GR.
Why is the "R" in GR backwards?
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
The other day
GR (the real one) made a handle that was imitating skymutt so skymutt made this one.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I actually didn't mean to post this as fake GR...
I'm logged in as GR in firefox and skymutt in IE and I picked the wrong browser to post...
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Maybe it's time to surrender your mutual alias'...
?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Thats a +1 here
It was funny, but it's pretty lame when everything is all said and done.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Aw shucks...
Alright, I will surrender the sockpuppet. :-( [skymutt kicks at dirt]
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Another race to watch
Kay Bailey Hutchison may resign her Senate seat to run for Governor of Texas. Her replacement would be elected, not appointed, and two strong Democrats have indicated interest.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
Pundit Round-Robin Idea
Saw something over at Daily Kos (no, not a member) that I though was pretty interesting--it was a round-up of daily quips of conservative and liberal pundits. I think it would be cool to do something similar, with or without the snarky summaries seen there. We probably could also add a few musings of bloggers (Sullivan, Malkin, Erickson, Yglesias, etc.) Does anybody think it would be an interesting idea?
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
can you give a link
to the ogirinal post? That might give me a better idea of what exactly you're thinking of...
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Direct Link Blocked at Work, but here's the RSS
From Today:
http://feeds.dailykos.com/~r/dailykos/index/~3/RR0xFHsRknA/691865
From Sunday:
http://feeds.dailykos.com/~r/dailykos/index/~3/O8qwh1hjVUo/691409
I think they do this once a day, updated each morning. It's a bit partisan, but I think we can put our own SC spin on it.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Alrighty
I suppose the first step would be to generate a list of pundits/bloggers worth tabulating.
As far as bloggers I'd think some of the following:
Outside the Beltway
Kevin Drum
Cunning Realist
Daniel Larison
Angry Bear
Feel free to add more suggestions...
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Cool idea...
The Volokh Conspiracy
The Austrian Economists
Judicial Watch
National Summary
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Something funny, and something not funny
Porn clip shows during Superbowl in Arizona:
http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/02/02/2009-02-02_porn_clip_interru...
Oh well if they were Comcast subscribers, that's okay then.
Not so funny:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,486946,00.html
12 years sems a tad short for this kind of thing, frankly.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Not necessarily
Its a built-in safety valve. The government usually screws up.
Now if I'm dictator, judge, jury, and executioner...there is only ever on penalty. Death by guillotine ... because I'm always right.
Yes, I'm kidding (I think).
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
EyeOnPalin.org
Ashley Judd
asks you to keep your eyes on Sarah Palin, for promoting the senseless aerial slaughter of wolves.
I'm only half stupid
Sarah Stiffs House Republicans
In related news:
Palin politely declined an invitation by the House Republicans to join them for their winter retreat. She said she had to take care of state business. Apparently so, she was at the Alfalfa dinner with President Obama, asking for support for the Stimulus Package.
She Lied to Us! Is she a socialist after all!
The 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, scheduled meetings in Washington this weekend with Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and other senators to press for her state's share of the package.
I'm only half stupid
Total Crap...AGIAN?
She's a Governor, there is a $825 Billion stimulus being passed through Congress, she would be negligent not to advocate on behalf of her energy producing state for infrastructure dollars.
But this is her position;
Sounds like Sarah Palin in doing just fine.
It's you that has problems.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Instant revisionism.
Your are engaging in instant revisionist history.
She DID NOT ATTEND the Republican winter retreat, and instead chose to go to the elite Washington dinner. Worse she lied to the GOP and said she had to take care of some business in Alaska.
Of course she isn't stupid. All this standing on principle goes out the door when your state needs money. She can get her some of Obama's stimulus package.
Even worse Sarah was paling around with Obama who might be an illegal President not born in this country!
Unbelievable!
I'm only half stupid
Listen political freak...
I never said she did attend anything.
She's there having meetings and doing what Governors do.
She would be negligent if she didn't.
She was trying to get infrastructure dollars for Alaska so she can deveopl the energy resources there, totally consistent with her position all along..
She stated herself her position on the stimulus -infrastructure yes, stimulus yes, new federal programs/expansion NO.
Your routine has worn too thin, I think you need to take some time and figure out what the F you're talking about.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
This is the last time I'm going to say anything
"Freak" is a personal attack and the last sentence isn't all that civil.
I'm going to start cracking down now that I have the time and now that we're all posting again. And since I'm getting flack for being unfair from both the conservative and liberal sides, that says to me I'm an equal opportunity offender and doing a good job. :-)
Keep it above the belt.
If you think someone is being uncivil, be the better person: ignore them or state it as such. I'll catch it and respond accordingly.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
...mudafkinblsht... sure.
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Can it get any freakier....
HT Moonbattery
:
The Cult of the Moonbat Messiah just keeps getting creepier:
Follow the instructions at the Detroit Free Press
and you too can merge your face with BHO's and become one with The One.
So much for the media providing a brake on government. Joseph Goebbels wouldn't have pushed statist idolatry this far.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Its harmless
Its pretty much the same as the people who thought George Bush was put on Earth by God to be our leader.
I don't like either type of hero worship, but until people are praying to Saint Obama in large numbers, I think we're going to make it.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Stay tuned... lol ;-)
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Those stupid french...
...are maybe not so stupid after all
!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Indeed
Sarkozy is trying to ram a bunch of bonuses for corporations down their throats of the French people and they're protesting. Pretty smart.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Interesting chart
This is for all the "Republicans are better fiscal stewards than Democrats" folks who want to ignore this simple fact:
$7.5 trillion of our current $10 trillion in debt has been run up by three Presidents.... Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II.
43 Presidents... 220 years.... and 3/4 of our debt was accumulated during presidencies of three "supply-siders".
Half of the debt that this country took 220 years to accumulate was built up under one President.
George W. Bush.
The prosecution rests. Worst President ever.
I survived the Bush Administration
I posted this before...but some are slower to learn than others.
Watch paticularly up to and through 1:10 forward...
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Well then I guess that means
Well then I guess that means Obama is destined to be the next worse president ever, since he's promising twice the deficits we got from Bush. I am no fan of the Bush's and Reagan's fiscal policy, and would tend to agree that its led us to the brink of bankruptcy, but I don't see how Obama supporters have any room whatsoever to talk about balanced budgets. When it comes to deficit spending Obama is putting the pedal to the medal.
To play devil's advocate
Can we do the same chart based on who held the Congress?
I wonder if that will show us anything interesting.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
You should look at Angry Bear
That blog has done a lot of such comparisons, taking all kinds of factors into account.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Repub's, Federalists, Conservatives - The New Radicals
Have you sensed what’s happening, it’s going on all around us as we speak. What was once the party of old white guys is rapidly becoming the party of, well you might be surprised as The LibertarianRepublican Blog’s Eric Dondero points out
;
Looks like being a constitutionalist is cool again!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Yeah, good luck with that.
You do know that republican afflitiation has pretty much bottomed out among the youth vote, right? Even if it is coming back up (and that's pretty unlikely right now) then it has a long ways to go.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
True. And not to bash my
True. And not to bash my peers, but considering their knowledge of politics, the fact that they vote Democrat isn't exactly something for Dems proud of.
I'm not disputing that
I think there are a lot of fairly shallow reasons that the youth vote tend to be progressive. They're often not very thoughtful or informed about the world (ah to be young again). Then again having met a few college republicans i can't say they really wow'd me with their perspicacity, either. :)
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Tell Ron Paul's massive number of young supporters that...
...and these guys are INFORMED!
This is the message of the Repub party that we had lost in the Jerry Falwell-ism, and Izod image. We are not that at all. This is awesome, and will help get our party back on track.
Our principles fit it perfectly with young kids who dig the fact they live in a free country.
Dude, you are on a pendulum ride, and you have rode it out to it's axis termination point, it will all come back to the Repubs, like it always does, because your nanny state promoting party wants to be in everyone's pocket and ultimately Americans will realize it.
Enjoy the moment. LOL!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Well, sort of...
Libertarians have a decent percentage of their support among younger voters but remember that libertarians are a tiny fraction of the population. Bob Barr got substantially less votes than Ralph Nader in 2008 (like two thirds as many votes). Libertarians are very well represented online, and Ron Paul has a number of, shall we say, "zealous" supporters who made serious pains of themselves this last election.
At the same time it isn't at all clear that all libertarians support the GOP or will support the GOP more in the future than now. It depends a lot on the direction the GOP goes. I think you have choice between the libertarians or the Neo-cons. I'm certainly not going to cry if you choose the libertarians. The neo-cons really shouldn't be anywhere near the government.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Don't forget about the Libertarian NeoCon
There's a few of them around the web.
Can't say that appellation makes sense to me.
Libertarians tend to be borderline isolatonist. Neocons are all about projecting american influence worldwide.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Not isolationist
The position is one of non-aggression, non-entangling and non-exacerbative alliances, diplomacy and a fostering of open relations for individuals of the countries.
It may sound like a mouthful but "isolationist" simply doesn't capture that spirit.
Well I did say "borderline"
really I'm pretty sympathetic to the libertarian view of foreign policy, it wasn't indended as an insult.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
A libertarian neo-con?
Is that like a liberal conservative?
A libertarian neo-con is simply a conservative who showcases his few libertarian sympathies front and center.
That's like saying "libertarian Wilsonian Social Democrat" because some social democrat supports some libertarian positions on drug use, religion, abortion, some aspects of foreign policy and equal, non-excuslionary rights for marginalized minorities like gays.
Libertarian positions? Yes. Libertarian in general? No.
The Iraq War
seems like it was promoted by libertarian neo-cons?
Export democracy and the free market business model to stablize the middle east?
Most neo-cons seem to heavily favor the 'free market' system, as the bell that brings freedom to areas of unrest as opposed to say a Frenchier economic model.
I'm only half stupid
It doesn't work that way, MissL
Firstly, neo-cons are not for the free market. They are for corporatism...which can resemble free markets to the untrained eye but is as incompatible with the core principles of the free market model as Social Democratic mixed economy.
One perverts the market to favor big business at the expense of labor (and also at the expense of market instability...in the positive sense...which is good for entrepreneurship and competition), and the other perverts the market to favor Big Labor at the expense of business ((and also at the expense of low market entry costs...which is good for entrepreneurship and competition and small labor).
Secondly, no libertarian would favor the means by which neo-cons seek to export "free markets"...even if they were in fact exporting "free markets"...which they are not. But the point is still there.
There's a level of disernment I had not heard before...
...I had never read where neo-cons are for corpratism, makes sense I suppose.
But where does that leave a classic conservative who supported the war? Of which there are many, they just get labeled a neocon, thats what.
One thing about Libertarians, they are a bit snobby about there nomenclature aren't they? lol.
What are folks out here who believe in taking the war to the enemy, but also have a plethora of libertarian views supposed to call themselves?
I mean it is a line somewhere that makes someone either a libertarian w/ x views, or a x w/ libertarian views...
But it seems if you don't subscribe to the anti war sentiment, the rest of your libertarian values are dismissed?
Kind of funny.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Sorry, RW. It is what it is.
I don't consider it snobby at all.
Corporatism, as I define it, is the act of government facilitating the economic power of status quo business interests beyond what they can do by themselves. This can be in the form of many things. Whenever government acts on behalf of business interests in a way that gives them an unnatural advantage...either against labor or competition...and flies in the face of naturally occurring market force impediments and risks, it's corporatism.
Where does all this leave classic conservatives who support the war? Exactly where they are:
As classic conservatives who support the war. It doesn't seem very complicated.
Some are in fact neo-cons, yes. Sorry if the label gets spread too far.
We must remember: neo-cons are very similar to Modern Liberals...just with different values and priorities. Many in fact are disaffected 60s liberals who didn't like the cultural turn that the Left took.
Neo-Cons are very statist and collectivist in nature. They love the state over the people living in it. It is Alexander Hamilton on steroids.
Conservatives.
(with some libertarian sympathies)
However, I suppose there is perhaps such a thing in the current context as a pro-war libertarian. But I can't help but think that that position is basically the exposing of this type of person as being something else. I could be wrong though.
Maybe you should rename
your merry band economic philosophers 'natural libertarians', er something. There are too many different branches.
Conservatives, and neo-cons have definitely tainted the word free markets with all their social engineering. To conservatives it means no taxes is less government. To others it means democracy and capitalism by force. To me capitalism has been perverted to mean the 'stock market'. Make your money work for you so you don't have to perform actual 'work'.
Here's an article that you might find interesting.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9553cce2-eb65-11dd-8838-0000779fd2ac.html?ftca...
For markets to function rationally they have to be based on an objective truth, rather than belief or persuasion that for example house prices would always rise. That was the false hood that our current market collapse was based on. Rational people made seemingly rational decisions based on an underlying assumption of truth that was false.
The biggest false hood of free market thinking is that markets will self correct. All that has happened is we are suffering from robber capitalism. It's interesting that no one really has a grasp of how to cope with the economic situation the world now finds itself in.
Soros sees the current crisis as a real-life illustration of reflexivity. Markets did not reflect an objective “truth”. Rather, the beliefs of market participants – that house prices would always rise,
I'm only half stupid
LOL! Soros!!! ROTFLMFAO
George Soros
is a pathetic piece of ______!
Take a look at one of your favorite guys, David Horowitz, thinks about him
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Couple things, MissL
Let's be logical here. You are bascially telling me that you believe something that you know is not true or accurate. You know what capitalism means. Let's be serious. Telling me that NOW have come to make yourself believe that it is something that you know is not true leaves me with little to say other than to point it out to you....which I just did.
As for Soros, well:
I think you know already know what I think about that. Whenever I see "Greenspan" and "Market Fundamenetalism" in the same sentence, I simply cannot take what follows very seriously. If Greenspan was such a fundamentalist, he would have been more concerned with how he misused his power over monetary policy and been more prudent about setting perversions in motion to keep a fake boom humming along.
Also, a market fundamentalist would be very alarmed about how such careless monetary policy would affect market forces and would have sought preventative measures to minimize the discords that any concern over "market fundamentals" would tell you are coming.
Basically, a "market fundamentalist" is concerned with market fundamentals and the health of such fundamentals for fear of what deviation from those fundamentals will cause.
Soros and Greenspan are not that different. They simply choose different rhetoric to signal what their otherwise irrelevant and context-free personal beliefs are when they talk to others over coffee.
As to your two bold statements:
#1: Excellent point about the importance of market fundamentals being safeguarded to make sure that prices being relayed by market forces are accurate so as to avoid systemic problems of discords and resource misallocation. Well said.
#2:
Your bold statement about self-correction is totally false and even Krugman or any die-hard liberal economist or economically literate non-economist would disagree with you. What Krugman and others would say is that the market correction is too slow and painful and must not be allowed to take its course at its own pace. Action must be taken to relieve the pain of the correction toward people caught in the cross hairs. "In the long run, we're all dead"...that famous statement by Keynes...had to do with this matter of corrections, intervention and long run perversions.
Your sentence that follows that second quote is somewhat true...making the previous somewhat less potent.
Your last sentence is correct and again stresses the importance of properly functioning price signals...a bedrock of market fundamentals. Well Said, again!
Keep it up!
Objective reality
vs idealism's denial.
Libertarians rail on about the Fed, yet I don't see the Fed's disappearing anytime within the next two decades. You have to work with the structure you have.. So any kind of objective analysis of market forces is in completele denial without accepting that fact.
Reality says that capitalism has been corrupted by the investment banks treating unpaid credit as a stock market commodity to sell for capital. The credit was unaffordable. That is exactly why we are in the mess we are in.
Your perception is your reality, but it is not the objective truth.
I'm only half stupid
OK. (?)
If you want to change the subject or steer away from what I said in response to what you said, just say so.
Because, well, let's just say it: You totally avoided and dodged my points.
BTW, since you won't respond otherwise:
The Obvious: The Fed doesn't need to disappear. And in working with the structure we have, Greenspan could have and should have done better in the spirit of honoring those very nice points you made about accurate price signals.
The sentence that I put I put in bold doesn't make any sense at all as a follow-up to the first two since accepting the fact that the Fed is not going to disappear is not a prerequisite to anything that I said.
I think the FED is unconstitutional...
...and should be eliminated.
I don't think it at all impossible...look at all the socialism being kicked around today, 2 years ago I would of thought that impossible...so when the backlash of all this comes around, and it will soon enough, because all this socialism doesn't work, the FED is only a media story or two away from having it's head on the chopping block.
We need Congress to re-assume it's constitutional duties, and afford the public more transperency in that regard, the FED is too much smoke and mirrors.
And you would think ML would want that...but she thinks it's a capitalist thing so goes the other direction...
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
The legitimacy of the Fed exisiting is another matter.
The discussion points at hand with MissL do not need to address it.
I don't like the Fed. I think we can do better without it. However, the Fed as it exists is capable of doing a little better than it did in the 2000s.
Let me state for the record
I affirm and I believe in legitimate capitalism. Legitimate capitalism is ethical, which is why we pay taxes to have laws enforced to keep it that way.
I'm only half stupid
Me too.
But what does this bland and obvious statement have to do with what we're talking about?
BTW, The amount of money it takes to enforce laws of commerce is probably less than a 1/10 of a penny on ever 10 dollars the government collects in taxes to perform its duty.
I am responding to RW
who thinks that I am a stereotype, and with every breath I take, and every word I write our country is one step closer to the evils and tyranny of socialism.
I'm only half stupid
You believe in what...Legitimate Capitalism...
...What would George Soros think...
Awe, just joking, you have nothing to worry about, because you believe in nothing of the sort.
You can't have your giant nanny welfare state and legitimate capitalism...
It only exists in your mind.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Mock me all you want
It doesn't make what you say true.
YOU who enshrines the cause of liberty don't get to tell ME what I believe in. That would be hypocritical wouldn't it. //
I'm only half stupid
No it wouldn't...
...but it's more like picking a criminal out of a lineup.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Welfare capitalism
This is only true if you have an extremely narrow definition of legitimate capitalism, to the point of fantasy utopian capitalism that will never exist, or if you are hyperbolizing "giant nanny welfare state" to something which no one here has ever proposed. Capitalism and welfare are not incompatible.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Yes they are...
..In a legitimate capitalist society, those with needs would be taken care of by individuals and organizations through charitable contributions.
That is called charity SL, not involuntary wealth redistribution via welfare, and it is not some Utopian concept at all, it is the way this country was for most of it's history.
It is much better, then when society values something, it gets it's attention, when it does not, it doesn't, that is the way it should be? Why should I support something like abortion, cash for those the government says deserves it, subsidized housing for people the government says deserves it, etc., with my tax dollars if I am opposed to it? Now we have a whole welfare state in our country because the government was permitted to grow into these areas.
What was for 150+ years 0% of the federal budget, now devours 2/3rds of it!
Talk about utopia's!
This is the real core problem that arises when government starts over running it's constitutional bounds.
And now you're heading us headlong into the uber socialst season of our country's development?
Nightmare___________!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
If I actually thought enough
If I actually thought enough people with enough money would be generous enough, than I'd be with you on this, I don't however, which is why I support a safety net.
Ron Paul doesn't
That is one thing that cracked me up in his book.
He said that back in the "old days" physicians took it upon themselves to care for the poor: No government mandate needed. He says we don't volunteer much because we think we've already paid our fair share in taxes so the poor should be taken care of.
I think he really believes everyone would donate more and volunteer more if we didn't have to pay income tax. And automagically everyone would be taken care of.
Right. And I've got oceanfront property in Kansas I'd like to sell.
But we do touch on the end-game of the libertarian/conservative position on welfare: if you don't have enough money on which to live and can't find a good samaritan, we'd rather you die than force someone to give up their money to save you. Most people see that as being quite harsh. It is very simply property over people.
Sure you can charge that the government is inefficient and every other argument about the effacacy of such programs, but that is a concise statement of their position when push comes to shove. That ranks right up there with the idea that if someone kidnaps a loved one and they are tied up with a rope, you may not cut the rope
because that'd be damaging someone else's property.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Paul may be overstating the level of improvment
in those behaviors but I think you're understating a little.
Whether the level of generosity would be enough so as to totally eliminate the welfare state is a matter that leaves me a bit skeptical. HOWEVER, I think it takes the most cynical of cynics toward his fellow man to believe that there would no very noticeable improvment in generosity under such conditions. Americans give a lot to charity already with the full knowledge that we have a welfare state to care for the poor. I think you underestimate the level of indifference that many feel on such matters simply because we spend so much on programs for the poor. A lot of that indifference would diminish greatly in the absence of these programs.
Give your fellow man some credit.
I don't doubt that people
I don't doubt that people would increase their charitable giving without welfare. I just doubt that it would be enough from people with enough money to insure that nobody starves or is left without medical care, or left without shelter or clothing. The advantage to government is that its universal and covers everybody, while I'm a huge fan of charity, due to the fact that that they have to rely on people's free will offerings make it and that they're spread among so many groups make it more of a patchy safety net in my mind, which is rely I'm uncomfortable totally relying on it.
In the blue
but I'll echo John Mark here, and after re-reading my original comment I did understate my belief that Paul was partically correct (just wrong by degree). That belief was in an earlier "draft" of my comment and somehow didn't make it into the final post.
I'll also notice neither you nor RW addressed the property over people section. If indeed anyone believes that there is no role for govenment in providing a safety net, then they would rather people die than have the government coerce people into giving any amount of money to save those lives. I'm happy to accept that position, but it is important for people to own the consequences of their political philosophy. I cheerfully accept the darker and more sinister and unpopular aspects of mine.
However that is another debate for another day.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
??
I actually didn't notice the Property over People Section on first read. I'll look after I post.
That said, I actually never took such a hard position so I'm not sure why you are referring to me.
The blue is hurting my eyes
I wasn't calling anyone out in particular, just pointing out the logical conclusion to the opposition of all government financial assistance.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
With the onus in government on self responsibility...
...and the realities of life becoming one's own to bear, you would see far less of that kind of instance...but certainly, as it is now, in large part, churches and the like would fill that need.
There is undoubtedly a whole class of those who would pick up and move on in a positive way once their SSI, etc. was withdrawn. Same with those in projects etc.
It's inhuman not to expect those people to thrive like everyone else, but to enslave them in a generational welfare state.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Listen, it is not a theory...
...it is the way it was.
Where there was a void, a need or what have you people who had the answer, had been afflicted, or have loved ones that had been, steped in and did the good works.
Think about it, the carnagie librbies, the shriners hospitals, the red cross, etc etc etc these were all things that emerged as a result of those conditions. No tax dollars, just people doing the next right indicated thing.
And yes, I think people have so much taken from them by government in the name of welfare that it absolutely does affect deeply the real human spirit of charity.
If we could have back 2/3 of the federal budget every year and returned to us, it would change al lot. Think about it.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
very good points
things like the red cross and the salvation army are not unfortunate creations in the absence of government "generosity". They are testaments to man's willingness to organize and help others when there were no other ways and or reasons to rationialize inaction or indifference.
Economic/Political Systems
I understand that you don't think welfare and capitalism should co-exist, but that does not mean that they cannot. The country we live in proves that quite handily.
You have this weird idea that life was better for everyone before welfare existed, and I am not sure where you get that idea from, but I don't think it is true. But it is also not particularly important to the argument that capitalism and welfare can co-exist. Capitalism is an economic system which can exist under many different forms of government. Not all of those forms of government are going to be ones that you like, but that doesn't make them non-capitalist.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Ok, so we'll leave it at that then...
...I appreciate what you are getting at.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Actually, RW
You can have both. Of course, the devil is in the details. And I really mean the devil is in the details.
We can have a well-functioning and legitimate capitalist economy that adheres to free market principles as best as can be while having programs to help people in times of need.
Personally given the choice between:
almost no taxes and a horribly compromised and corrupt state capitalist system that is full of the terrible laws, favoritism and rules and incentive structures of the worst sort that is rigged to cause unnatural cartelization of industry
and
A higher tax burden in a virtually total free market system in terms of laws and incentive structures with a welfare program to help the poor and unemployed
...I choose the latter.
While I think high tax burdens are bad, compromised system where market forces are controlled for the benefit of some at the expense of others and are not allowed to work is WORSE.
We are somewhere between these types....probably closer to the latter than most countries but not all. And most certainly not enough.
Of course, this is not a suitable paradigm. I was just making an example. We can do better than both of them and should strive for that by advocating lower tax burdens and simple, efficient and effective welfare programs while striving most importanly for the cleanest and most "fundamentally" sound laws and incentives so the market system (including that price mechanism!!) can work as properly and fairly as possible.
The enemies to that end are everywhere.
BTW, this proclamation shouldn't sound so surprisng. It's pretty easy to deduce this position from what I say. I just hardly ever put it this way.
I suppose there "could" be a lot of things..and...Capitalism...
...but in Capitalism itself, there is nothing I know of that allows for wealth redistribution in any form by coercive means.
Tax revenue should be spent constitutionally, there is no provision for congress to spend on charitable or benevolent affairs.
How then do you account for these allowences you claim?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
"Capitalism" with no qualifiers
pretty doesn't NOT allow for a lot things.
By talking about coercion and the merits of wealth distribution, you are referring to a certain kind of capitalism which best reflects your political and ideological preferences.
Keep in mind that a typical country France is indeed a capitalist country. But it is simply a capitalist country which relfects certain values and degrees of intervention that you do not share.
Personally, when I look at country like France...a country I happen to love dearly BTW...on an economic level, I see a lot that I don't like. But what bothers me the most in France is actually not the welfare state but rather the ridiculous level over-regulation and bad and corrupt regulation on multiple levels from labor markets and licensing to very fundamental laws about how a company may conduct business in terms of price controls, wage controls down to the small minutae of matters like how a restaurant can't freeze many kinds of food.
I find it incredibly suffocating and unfair and overbearing.
The high taxes are another matter.
Closet Anarchist?
The Constitution does not define capitalism, it defines the government of the United States of America.
Regardless, if an amendment were passed which explicitly allowed for welfare spending, we would not cease to be a capitalist country.
The only way there could be NO "wealth redistribution in any form by coercive means" is if there were no government at all. Perhaps you should change your bar color to black? :)
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
No, any reasonable man would agree...
..as it always have been, there must be a revenue stream to the government from its citizenry.
It is when those revenues are used to benefit one segment of the population over another when it becomes a problem.
We are a capitalist country, true, hence my willingness to leave it alone earlier, however, we are infringing on that to a degree, especially now, that the USG is determining private corps pay scales, that I am not sure we will be able to make that claim much longer.
I am not in any way an anarchist. I am 100% in support of a constitutional federal government.
What a misdiagnosis that is?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Note the smiley
It's not a misdiagnosis, it's an exaggeration for effect. :)
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Okie Doke...
;-)
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
OMG...Who are you trying to fool?
...You would be flipping out if we had legitimate capitalism, and collected only enough tax to run the constitutional government and let free markets and liberty do their things!
Why even say such a thing, you have never professed anything remotely like that, ever.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Sorry
there bud, if I came on a bit too strong.
I am expressing my opinion, or the way I perceive my objective reality of the situation.
I am glad you have been somewhat more responsive to what I have said, but it floors me that for a long long time I have said housing was overpriced in like a thousand different ways. Did that just slide over your head? It's nothing new on my part.
What I am addressing is the perception. People perceived their house values would go up forever and state revenue offices took that tax revenue to the bank.
Greenspan manipulated the monetary policy for ideological reasons, not to serve the best interests of his function of governing over sound a sound monetary.
My personal stimulus plan for the economy would be to let the price of homes drop like a rock, all around the world, until they are in line with average wages. Consumers would have money to spend and the economy would grow again. But that is unrealistic.But 'they' can't do that because of this crazy investment in 'futures' of what credit is worth and that money is owed in debt to other countries, or globalized.
No you can't ignore the Fed. They are the ones printing money like crazy to inject capital into the banks. Any kind of objective economic deduction has to be made with that reality in mind, whether we like what the fed is doing or not.
I'm only half stupid
Once again, MissL
You are kind of avoiding my points. I'm not sure if it's because you can't think of anything better to say or because...well...I don't know.
You can express your opinions all you want but that has nothing to do with responding clearly to people.
If you ask me how old I am and I answer that I prefer the color black to the color red, I'm expressing an opinion but it's kind of irrelevant. Ya know?
The fact that you have said housing has been over-priced is noted but it doesn't really matter. We are talking about something beyond a simple observation. I have said the same thing house prices. Again, that's all beside the point.
And? How does this tie in any point in a way that I didn't already cover? Yes, people and the system relied on ever-escalating house prices. I think I addressed this point already, didn't I?
Next paragraph: No, Greenspan manipulated monetary policy for neither reason. He did it for political and economic reasons (BAD and short-sighted economic reasons) so as to keep the economy with the semblence of humming along. Again, I covered this already and with explanations. If he had done it for ideological reasons, he would have reacted differently as I also explained above. Reread the part of market fundamentalism. Of course, if Greenspan's ideology is something else: corporatist, interventionist or something to that effect, then his actions make perfect sense. And BTW: sound monetary policy is part of that free market ideology that you incorrectly attribute to Greenspan.
Next paragraph: Let them drop like a rock? Wow, very free-market of you, MissL? I'm glad to see that you are willing to let the market correct itself and forgoe any interference.
You must not be happy with EITHER party's actions right now.
However:
That doesn't make any sense to me. What does that mean? Me, I would just let prices drop until people are willing to buy them. That will tell you all the truth you need to know because it means the price mechanism is being allowed to work. Otherwise, well put. Rest of that paragraph is well put as well....if I understand it correctly.
Last paragraph, again, doesn't make any sense. And let's remember what prompted this thread tangent:
http://swordscrossed.org/story/20090202/monday-tuesday-open-thread#comme...
Read what you wrote and go through the subsequent posts again. Either you're meaning something that you are not writing or you're just talking in circles.
I believe in
inductive reasoning. I don't like math much.
There's my illogical answer.
Let prices drop so that people can afford them. Obviously lots of folks are willing and eager to buy a home. Of course that's unrealistic, unless this deflationary spiral continues.
I don't like that everyone is trying to prop up (inflated) house prices to save the banks. I think it is unwise.
But that doesn't matter because lots of people with a lot of money want to prop up the house prices. Such is life.
When people say that the price of homes as dropped 30%, that to me is a false reading, because the price of homes was inflated 125%. It's a dumb comparison.
And for the record, I could say that your comment about not liking either party right now is irrelevant to the topic at hand, and does not relate to the context of the discussion. But I don't mind a free flow discussion where sometimes thingsseem out of order.
I'm only half stupid
I don't understand how you
I don't understand how you can say things like this:
and still say things like you agree with the stimulus and that we should stop complaining about the Fed because it's here to stay and yet you constantly rail on about how we need reform on this and that and the other thing.
It really boggles my mind. Sometimes I wonder if you make this stuff up as you go along.
She does...
Truth be known, she doesn't know her rear end from a hole in the ground.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I could respond
even though I don't have a PhD in the non-science of economics.
It's all about jobs. Keeping the unemployment lines at a minimum while making an effort to kick start some new jobs.
Our economy will not improve until the jobs numbers start going up. You can call it pork. I call it creating jobs. This country needs to put people back to work. Science, education, and yes the people in Hollywood are a part of our economy. Camera crew, make-up artists, script writers all get paid and then spend money that goes into the economy.
I'm only half stupid
interesting
Not much of a response. But an interesting answer.
But thats all just artificial...
Solve the problem, reduce government, cut spending, close the insolvent banks, learn a lesson and move forward based on sound principles.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Actually, MissL
Truth be told, it's not really about jobs...even though that sounds terrible to say.
Job numbers actually go up WHEN the economy improves. Plentiful jobs and good jobs (the kinds that make people better off with a better quality of life) are actually a RESULT of economic improvement...not a prequesite to that growth.
Work...generically speaking...does not make wealth. If that were true, the absence of work-saving technologies that render lots of menial toil moot would mean that we would be "improved" economically. And that is simply the opposite of the truth.
Excellent point...
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
How trite....
Job numbers actually go up WHEN the economy improves. Brilliant deduction sherlock.
This is Reaganomics in a mask. Only capital/wealth can create jobs.
Only wealth can create wealth.
It is not legitimate capitalism to dishonor the dignity of work.
Let's remember that consumers are the grease in the engine known as the markets. Banks are the fuel that turns the engine. Right now both of these key components of our economic system are moving more and more slowly.
So when the economy does not improve can we logically conclude that job numbers will go down.
If you pay attention, you will notice that jobs losses are reaching an accelerated pace, with the promise of accelerating even faster the more jobs we lose.
Job growth or loss is a measure of the health of our economy.
I'm only half stupid
It may sound trite
and you seem to think it's obvious...but it goes against what you already said upthread.
Never mind "Reaganomics". You seem to be so preoccupied with politics that you are willing to say something is true when presented plainly and simply but then contradict it when it fits a political view you hold dearly. Kind of like the other matter on Greenspan.
BTW, I'm not downplaying consumers or labor. Not at all. I'm simply clarifying how it all goes together.
You say "brilliant deduction, Sherlock". Well, if it's so obvious, then why are trying to make a disgareement out of it?
Because we have
been bleeding jobs. Isn't that obvious? Or did you just chose to ignore that fact.
I'm only half stupid
I asked why you are trying to disagree
if you claim to agree in almost the same breath.
I don't see how your answer gets to that end.
You
state the obvious.
So what do we do if wealth is leaving and jobs are lost.
The intention of my question was to ask what action you would take. Not what theory you believe in.
I'm only half stupid
Well,
First we'd have to agree that this is happening in such a way. That statement strikes me as quite vague. What do you mean by "leaving"?
It means spending
is down.
It means money is not being circulated into the economy. It means the economy is getting smaller. It means demand is down. It means fewer people are adding productivity into the market. It means that foreign money coming at slower rates, and it is not being put to work. It means that imports are down. It means that exports are down. It means overall economic activity is slowing down.
I'm only half stupid
Gee ML, I guess you're right, we're spending $9.7 TRILLION !!!
What I don't understand is...
...why do you go on about how we all spent too much, lived beyond our means etc. etc.
And then turn around and support and encourage us to spent too much, and live beyond our means etc. etc.?
This deflationary period is part of the healing process, it is temporary, it will be followed by an inflationary period as people once again put money back in the economy as a result of all the money the fed has and will pump into it.
Though I would agree a modest stimulus is warranted, this colossus spending package is certainly not.
Do you realize ML, that we are ultimately spending an estimated $9.7 TRILLION
on all this bailout stuff. Enough to payoff 90% of all the mortgages in America!!!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Folks
like myself, who questioned such things, the seemingly greed driven, status seeking, shopping era of gorging on credit, while others spent on enormous houses with empty rooms to heat, being built endlessly in rows, and filled with inexpensive Chinese trinkets, just remember back to the names we were called.
So you can't say that I wasn't upset by American over consumerism and greed. Because in fact I was.
It would sicken by to drive past a sunflower field turned into yet another subdivision, filled with folks with the best of intentions, yet living off their credit cards.
The conventional wisdom said buy more, eat more, spend more, and don't forget to invest in the stock market where you can really cash in.
The more frugal types trying to be more 'earth friendly' were considered dirty f*cking hippies, anti-capitalists, anti-US exceptionalists.
Or have you arleady forgotten?.
I'm only half stupid
ML? I said you have been going on about...
...the overspending, and living beyond peoples means, then asked why if that was the case you are so willing to do that very thing now via the spending bill?
I made a number of other assertions too, provided you links, and asked you questions.
And you come back with the usual unrefined diatribe, without advancing one of those points?
What will it take to get you to pick a topic, work through it until the end, and not just get all squirmy when the truth is at odds with your position, and spin off on some other crumb on the trail?
Please, go back, read my post, and respond, don't react.
Thank you.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
The Drudge is not
a reliable source for objective news.
I'm only half stupid
Is this reliable...
Click me if you dare...
And the Drudge Report just collects news stories...this one about the $9.7
is from Bloomberg...have a problem with them?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Sometimes....
Lather rinse repeat.
I'm only half stupid
Link is goofed...
...well here is a Denver Post article
saying the same things...
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Spending is down.
Yes.
But now, if we return to my diary about the stimulus from last week, we come back to a deeper point:
http://swordscrossed.org/diary/20090131/stimulus-your-thoughts-going-for...
Why is spending down? Why are all these things happening?
This is where things get interesting and then go nowhere.
Spending being down is symptomatic in my opinion. It is not what is "wrong". What is "wrong" is what is causing the drop in spending. "Spending", by itself, is generic and vague and should not be the focus of the analysis.
A once read that focusing on symptoms and subordinate matters like spending, among others, is like dwelling on the thermometer when it's too cold. Yes, the mercury is low but that's not really THE problem. So, putting a match under it won't really solve the problem.
BTW, spending "leaving" doesn't strike me as accurate. That would imply that the money is being spent elsewhere. That's not necessarily true.
I, however do like math
My $.02 :-)
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Thank goodness
The world needs more math lovers.
I'm only half stupid
No need to be intentionally illogical.
Math is also not needed here. I'll leave the inductive part be.
Let me ask you these non-rhetorical questions:
How does this entire post fit with the following statements you made...which are BTW the roots of this entire tangent?:
-"Maybe you should rename your merry band economic philosophers 'natural libertarians', er something."---> (by the sound of your last post, maybe you should sign up for that group..)
-"The biggest flase hood of free market thinking is that markets will self correct"---->Not only did you never address my reponse to this but everything you've said since then seems to contradict that statement...how do you explain this?)
Beyond this, the whole jab at Greenspan for the wrong reasons (IOW: his supposed "free market ideology") was also never addressed. Virtually everything you've said has also contradicted this point. It's hard for me to get around the fact that you continue to bash an inaccurate stereotype and then say things against that inaccurate stereotype that are actually pretty close to the accurate version of that stereotype. I share magilson's confusion.
And BTW, as for your response to magilson, a PhD in economics is completely irrelevant in this matter...not to mention that the jab at "the non-science" is completely unwarranted since you seem to be using basic notions of that "non-science" to attack the misuse of it.
Truly, truly perplexing. Why do you claim one position and then use the antithesis of it to substantiate it?
Reasonable people can disagree
How do you see our current global market economy as being 'self correcting'?
Greenspan was wrong. Period. If there were one person to blame for this calamity, it is he. His own self interest has proven to be disasterous to our economic system. He remained inflexible and purposefully ignored common sense of how to value risk.
I understand the stereotype, which I don't believe is inaccurate, which is why 'the bashing' seems somewhat accurate. I am making fun of these people whom I consider ideological idiots blinded by their own fundamentalist views.
IE: Defunding the SEC, and nuetering it to a position of "We will make compliance to regulations voluntary." was a huge error in judgement. But it fits in nicely with the view of free market fundamentalism, that raw capitalism is the great equalizer, or how could it be wrong if people are making money hand over fist?
I'm only half stupid
Um...
You may want to re-examine your facts regarding this claim. I'm sure you read it in some story and it was stated matter-of-factly, but the fact is that the SEC did grow during W's presidency, having both increased in budget and staff numbers when compared to Clinton's presidency and in fact all previous presidents.
You can read for yourself here
.
While you can say that it
grew that statement has no revelence as to whether they were effective.
If productivity is your means test for payment, then I would say that these folks were way overpaid. They were the supervisors of the largest theft in our banking history their noses and their job was to prevent exactly that.
I'm only half stupid
We don't seem to disagree on one level
And that level being the actual hard nuggets that matter:
You have continually throughout praphrased accurate observations that I make. In the latest post you did it again:
Greenspan was wrong and disaterous. Period.---->I say the same thing.
Elsewhere you have said:
Housing prices should be allowed to fall to an accurate price. I agree. I say the same thing.
This is in fact WOULD BE corrective mechanism. That part you won't say but there is simply no other way of looking at it.
You also state that bad policy perverted the price mechanism and caused this whole problem. I agree. I say the same thing.
But then, you insist on interpreting all this differently and incorrectly. Why do I say "incorrectly"?
Well, because your interpretations contradict your observations.
You state elsewhere that the market cannot self-correct. That is wrong. It is totally false. I explained this in one of the first posts upthread. I explained how even Krugman would disagree. I explained it all. It's not a question of "IF" it will self-correct. It's a question of "How Long will it take?" and "At what cost?" Therein lies the basis the real dispute between economists.
Here's the important part in all this:
**By stating that house prices will fall to accurate levels without intervention, you unmistakably state that markets will self-correct. You also admit that this not being allowed to happen because of the ripple effects it would have an many connected people. IOW, you admit that market is not being allowed to self-correct. That makes this question to me an unfair question with an obvious answer:
Obviously, the self-correction is not taking place because of policies to prevent it....something you yourself stated. So, asking me this doesn't make any sense.
The evidence of the self-correction attempting to happen is evidenced by the recession and the painful reallocation of capital and labor along with the price adjustments that is trying to happen.
IOW, the economy is trying to vomit and it's being prevented...so it continues to look really sick. The policies are attempting to supress the contents and "make it OK" as is.
And then there's the whole "market fundamentalism" business.
You say in this recent post:
So you think your stereotype is accurate? Sure. It's accurate. It's just labeled incorrectly. It's certainly NOT "fundamentalist". And I've explained why upthread. You still haven't responded to that. And yes, that explanation is pretty air-tight. I explained what a "fundamentalist" would do. And by your own haphazard admission, you've even SAID that what Greenspan did was not at all in accord with fundamentalist "ideology".
So, yes. People can disagree. But when the disagreement is rooted in a concerted effort on your part to be wrong and imprecise about matters that have objective and clear explanations to the contrary, it's truly not disgareement anymore. It's, ironically, being "blinded" one's own politics. In this case, your politics are forcing you to not only contradict yourself but also hold on to opinions that are easily refuted by the most basic adherence to facts and defintions.
One point
Do you really think that in the name of self interest and self preservation that bankers are going to let their institutions fail without putting up a fight, that investors won't claw and scratch to protect their holdings or that this nation is going to watch and do nothing as it's economy crumbles, just because of the unproven yet ideologically pure solution would be to do nothing and allow the markets to self correct?
I'm only half stupid
Oh missy...
No, I don't. So why not let them do just that?
No, but the difference between doing something, and building water parks, borrowing a trillion dollars to grow our government - instead of stimulating the economy, and subsequently throwing the economy headlong into a bonafide crisis, is a clear, distinct choice.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
And it's funny, RW
Her political side can't help but say things like "unproven yet ideologically pure" to debase the idea of letting prices adjust while she has repeatedly advocated the same thing herself when she leaves politics out of it for a moment.
It's a head scratcher.
Having been a part time ML watcher myself...
...(clears throat, adjusts tie)...
...it has been a bit of a never ending intellectual train wreck I suppose...
...why watch then some may ask...
...well, the same morbid curiosity that slow's one down at a crash scene of any sort... ;-)
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
she is a he...
missliberties is a dude...
Oh really?
I didn't know that.
Nice to see you, BTW.
How's the revolution coming?
revolution...
the proletariats are losing...
Would I be
more attractive to you IF I was a man?
I am an excellent swimmer.
I might be able to teach you to at least tread water.
And no you have to learn do your own laundry.
I will be doing your future wife a favor.
I'm only half stupid
naw, by the sound of your voice, you're not my type
you've called into cspan and then recounted it on this board...i happened to be watching cspan one of those times..
Now THAT'S creepy.
Seriously
Details please.....! What was the subject?
(I don't care if you don't like my tone. You are still doing your own laundry.)
I'm only half stupid
housing/ credit bubble...
nm...
Not to answer out of
Not to answer out of place...
I wouldn't say they would "let" themselves fail. I don't know that they actively chose to fail. Failure is a consequence of poor decisions. And they are putting up a fight. The banks that have not and more importantly will not ask for money are fighting with all kinds of issues every day.
And it has become obvious that we won't just sit here and watch it all happen. And I would also like to know if John thinks doing nothing is best. Doing nothing is probably not the answer. But artificially proping up prices when the market is naturally trying to correct (painfully) is not going to make things better. IF (IF) we were going to slowly raise interests as we watched GDP climb once again I might be persuaded to go along with some sort of corrective intervention that involved the printing of money. It goes against what I feel to be the best solution. But if forced to compromise to make all happy I might say, "OK". But that's a big, capital IF. We are really going to need to raise interest rates after all this to pull all of this inflationary money out of the bathtub as Keynesians would understand it.
As a side note: Given your opinion that the solution a lot of Libertarians are discussing is "unproven" would you mind sharing a "proven" solution to our current problem? Careful.
I wouldn't say that absolutely nothing is best
I'm not sure. However, that said, there are clearly things we shouldn't be doing...as you illustrated.
I think allowing natural market forces to do what they do...something no government could ever do...is important in getting toward a true resolution to what is wrong. However, I have absolutely no problem with helping people with increased benefits and perhaps pay roll tax cuts of some kind to boost consumer spending and employment respectively.
I'm open to temporary projects if they can truly target those people who need it most.
In short, I'm more than willing to substitute some losses in spending but not the way the government is doing it en masse.
Like I said, the most important part is allowing the market to work out of the recession so we come out truly better than when we went in.
There isn't one
proven solution, per se, because there has never really been a current problem like the one we face now.
My solutions would be the stimulus which should look to the future economy (broadband, transit, education, infrastructure).
Nationalize the failing banks. Yes it's radical but they literally need trillions more of TARP money which will never fly with the public. It would allow the feds to avoid idiots in Congress who think that spending is not fiscal stiumulus.
Address the foreclosure crises (that's a very tough one) especially since there will be more coming down the pike, which will include commercial paper. (And no one wants to insure this stuff with bonds?)
Formulate a new regulatory structure for the banking industry.
Work with global leaders to try and establish a universal regulatory framework to avoid this mess in the future.
Keep operating on deficits. Trying to balance the budget now or in the next decade would be suicide.
Get the states to change their budget rules so they can operate on deficits.
Change the stupid 60 vote rule in Congress that allows one Republican to essentially trump the magority party with the threat of a fake filabuster, so that we can actually pass meaningful legislation by the majority.
Put a provision in the stiumlus package to pay for night school so that each and every Congressman has to take Economics 101. When Republicans say that spending isn't stimulus they sound like idiots.
Time! This will need lots of time. This is a much bigger mess than people recognize.
I'm only half stupid
**sighs with disapppointment**
That was not the answer I was hoping for. I was actually hoping you would engage what I wrote.
Oh well. I hope you at least fully read it and think about it.
I will try
to give it a serious go, a bit later.
I am sure in the end you will see things my way! ;-)
I'm only half stupid
OK.
We already see so much of it the same the way....strangely enough. The difference is how you channel it to somehow make it fit with your politics and preconceived opinions.
You seem to favor fundamentals on the core of this matter. And then you castigate non-fundamentalists (in practice) like Greenspan as being a fundamentalist!
You wanna give that a serious go? Give'er hell!
John, How can you align your position with...
Have government decide what technologies are the best, get in the internet business, expand a failed DOE...
Take over the banks, and spend tax payers money at will...
Have tax payers aquire the debt of people and companies that made poor decisions...
Over regulate the markets...
Subject our economy to some UN style regulatory authority...
Advocates unsound fiscal policy...
On both National and State levels...
Allow liberals to go off on their half baked plan to socialize our country...
Again, thinks we can borrow and spend our way out of borrow and spending our way into trouble...
And has no real plan or intention to address the economy, but wants time to borrow and expand our government for a decade or more!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
That's not what I mean.
That laundry list of generic rhetoric is so meaningless, I'm not even addressing it.
I'm talking about the rest of the thread about very basic and concrete observations.
Well, her claim to affirm the fundementals of capitalism or...
...whatever today's abstraction of reality may be...is an incongruous pretense at best.
Given the statements she has made in the previous posts, over the spectrum of months, there is virtually no aspect of the free market, or it's corollary reasoning she could conceivably lay claim to.
IMO, of course.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I'm trying to be lenient here.
I'm separating rhetoric from hard nuggets.
Gimme a break!
Ok, I just find...
..that "laundry list of rhetoric" the only consistently held, tangible examples of what sort of thinking dominates her view.
But by all means, have at it.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Even Dem's Say There Is 80% Waste in the Spendulus...
HT: Brian Faughnan
Freshman Democrat Walt Minnick (D-ID) is one of the Blue Dogs who opposed passage of the Obama-Reid-Pelosi spending plan. He has now introduced his own stimulus legislation
. And how does it differ from the legislation being debated in Congress now?
Minnick is right. The bill is tremendously wasteful, and it will hurt the economy rather than help it. Will Minnick’s fellow Democrats listen?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Self correcting markets....
The theory that markets are self correcting is actually what has led to our current crises.
Financial markets do not represent the fundamentals of markets. Thus my statement capitalism has come to be viewed as the stock market. It was the use of credit and leverage, not market basics that led to our current crises.
The theory is that financial markets are not self correcting but self de-stabilizing.
Governments have to recognize that market self correction is a myth. That is why we have laws and regulations. Simply picking up the pieces after a bubble bursts is not an adequate solution.
Market fundamentalists believing that markets will self correct was the thinking behind allowing Lehman Bros. to fail. No worries the markets can handle it, Let the bohemoth fail.
The problem is that these fundamentalists did not understand the interconnectedness of the financial system. They preached globalism, but forgot that Lehman had ties to markets around the world. They forgot that AIG would be on the hook to insure this collapse. They forgot that AIG had insured securities in China our biggest creditor and would come up short on the payment due.
The theory that the markets stabilize themselves...... is an incorrect assumption.
One would be better off assuming that the markets will always be corrupted and out of balance, and therefore always need to be supervised.
The natural inclination of markets is for prices to be too high, and labor costs to be too low, because that is where the most profits lie.
(One could posit that unregulated capitalism in the extreme actually limits freedom. See slavery. In which case the government re-balanced the markets by fighting a war to free the slaves.)
So in essence, one must recognize that capitalism is a system that is prone to excess, and in a civil society that is governed by laws, it is the duty of the government to keep such excesses in check.
**confession: I have rewritten this several times to satisfy your precise and specific properness code, though I am sure I haven't met that threshold. I actually do have sound reasons behind my rambling statements. I just have trouble expressing them.
I'm only half stupid
Oh brother,
When trapped, retreat back into rhetoric, generalities and assertions that you don't substantiate or that are so far out of whack as to be too troublesome to correct.
Much of this was already covered. But to continue to assert otherwise means you have process what I've already said, not address it and ignore it and then continiue to speak as if I never said it.
Never mind. It doesn't matter.
I was trapped?
So you were focused on a specific preconceived answer? Not open to other theories?
That was your intention, to lay a trap, back me into a corner. Interesting.
I disagree that the free markets will self correct, as in magically fix housing prices with this hands off neo-Hooverite approach to the markets.
Your assertion that the markets are self correcting is what I was addressing. That capitalism and the free markets will magically balance things out, with a sprinkling of self interest.
Free markets and capitalism will always advantage those with the most capital when they are willing to abuse it for their personal enrichment at the expense of the weak and naive.
Kill the competition is the advice of some business leaders who are trying to win the largest free markets game. It's how you make the most money and gain the most power.
I'm only half stupid
Market Self-Correction...
You're a dude, despite your playful fetish to obscur your gender. Some agents on this board, such as John, were mistaken with respect to your gender, which you did nothing to correct. However, my free market knowledge, obtained really by happenstance, has corrected such erroneous mis-perception on the part of agents such as John.
market Self-Correction...
Next...
What do you mean?
I'm a little confused by your last sentence.
What sentence...
nm...
Your last sentence in your post:
...
he was pointing out that you
he was pointing out that you thought ML was a she, but he contends that she is, in fact, a he. Althought I'm not sure why it would matter other than to distract the topic.
Let it go,
You're spreading out even further and throwing extra junk and assertions in your wake while you're at it.
This is boring.
I win!
You lose!
You should be able to address what is false with my assertion that the markets are in fact not self regulating.
You obviously can't because that claim is not true.
I declare myself the winner by default!
I'm only half stupid
stateless, black markets...
next...
I already have a lot written which addresses all this
one way or another.
You apparaently don't get this sentence:
BTW, grow up.
That's what you always say
"I have already addressed these points, and you are too dense to comprehend." (Snotty)
Your points are always too elusive to the unconverted. at least to me. I admit I can be a little thick but that doesn't mean I am stupid!
IF you so believe in something then you should be able to explain it simple language that people can understand.
Grown ups don't have any fun.
No point in discussing it further.
I win!
I'm only half stupid
Oh, I dunno. I'd say it's
Oh, I dunno. I'd say it's pretty clear. As many of us have indicated previously you've simply never really taken the time to properly study economics. It would appear that it fascinates you, and you certainly feel strongly about what you believe to be true. But you've never taken the time to get a full understanding of economic theory other than a few clips you can pick up from whatever publication supports whatever theory your party of choice is trying to utilize at the time. Again, I'd encourage you to do a bit more reading and a bit less obfuscating. It would help all of us have more meaningful discussion, or a discussion at all, really, in the future. I get the feeling that even John is losing the patience necessary to deal with you, something I lost rather quickly.
Paul Krugman
is an economist. Steve Pearlstein is an economist. Both have read copiously on the subject of economics and are praised in their fields.
The problem isn't that I have not read enough (not to say that you can't always learn more), the problem is my point of view.
Do you respect Paul Krugman because he is a prize winning, well read, studied economist? Or do you laugh at him because you think don't like his point of view.
The disagreement isn't about reading enough books it is a philosophical one.
I'm only half stupid
I dislike Paul Krugman
I dislike Paul Krugman because his views are logically and dynamically inconsistent. I dislike Paul Krugman because when he is inconsistent it is always, always, always for a self-serving reason. I dislike Paul Krugman because he did not win a nobel prize for the economics about which he is currently being touted as an expert and yet he doesn't seem to feel the need to qualify the reason he won the prize or why we should take seriously a man who openly admitted there's no way to prove anything he said is true about the theory that won the prize.
This disagreement is most certainly about reading enough books (or at least making an attempt at serious conversation) when your philosophy, as consistently pointed out by the libertarians (at least) on this board, is inconsistent and illogical. If you were able to develop a logical and consistent philosophy on your own by "pure thought", as it were, no one, including myself, would be encouraging you to do more reading to broaden your understanding. It is my firm belief that you cannot fully understand a thing until you know both how to criticize your own position and then to refute each criticism until you are confident in it or abandon it for a new one. You have made not one single attempt to refute an argument against your position except to say we are blinded by our own confidence without understanding the same has been made apparently true of you.
It wouldn't matter
If someone has a liberal view....... then their view is automatically considered invalid.
Trying to prove something to a libertarian is like beating your head against a wall. Most are too entrenched in their ideology as a solution to the world's problems.
Yet you yourself have admitted that the free markets in their full purity do not exist. So there is no case study or even a sample from which you can draw your conclusions. It's all just theory.
I'm only half stupid
I'm not asking you to not be
I'm not asking you to not be a liberal. I'm asking you to have a uniform view that doesn't constantly have the rest of us scratching our heada to figure out what the heck you are talking about so that we can actually talk about something. John has asked you a lot of questions which you've never bothered to answer. If you want anyone to really start taking you seriously you might consider answering them. And by all means, ask him (and the rest of us!) related questions so that we can have a discussion rather than a food fight.
I would be interested in that list...
...of books you talked about the other day, when you have time.
Thanks!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I just remembered you had
I just remembered you had asked for it previously. Give me a few days to put a few ideas together. As hard as it is to believe, I've been incedibly busy at work lately.
Oh great, thx. ;-)
n/t
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
You are the last man standing - by sheer attrition...
...BIG difference.
When someone takes days to have a reasoned, organized, productive dialogue with you, and you foil those attempts to advance the conversation at every turn, and they finally deem the whole exercise a waste of time and disengage...
...you are not ...the winner!
Quite the opposite I'm afraid.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Even the CBO is dubious about this thing...
...A Trillion dollars, a trillion, and it is a crap shoot at best
, and a nation killer at worst!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
I think the definition of
I think the definition of political ideologies is a pretty subjective business. Libertarian's a little easier to define than liberal and conservative ( what are they being liberal or conservative about?...), however I don't know that you can define the term exactly. I do know there's people who consider themselves libertarian, and are quite libertarian on domestic issues ( except maybe they do tend to corporatism) and are also extreme neocons - they see it as agressively defending liberty.
True.
Well, from my POV, liberals and conservatives...to whatever varying degrees we see them...are essentially a mixture of libertarian and non-libertarian views. Of course, that's just my way of seeing the matter. But I think that is more accurate, objectively speaking, than saying a libertarian is a mixture of liberal and conservative views.
Libertarians have a different paradigm than liberals and conservatives. People forget that. I think the diametric opposite of a pure libertarian is a classic fascist....meaning an economic, social and national collectivist (ala Benito) where the state is supreme and values are derived therefrom with explicit intent of all activity being subserviant to the state's vision of the nation and what it should be.
The idea of the pro-war libertarian is based on the objectivist POV of Rand toward foreign policy...which you describe perfectly.
You're right it was actually
You're right it was actually Randians more or less that I was speaking of. Personally I find Rand's philopsophy to be about the most repugnant philosophy, some of that may be with the attitude of Rand and the attitude in which its presented. Selfishness and arrogance seem to be two of the cornerstones of Randian philosophy and that quite frankly tends to not make for rather unpleasant followers.
Being a libertarian is in vogue
Unfortunately with the hyper-religious zealotry of the New GOP, libertarians are, for the first time ever, breaking toward the Democrats.
I certainly welcome a return to the limited government principles of the GOP. It will not only do the GOP good, but will do the country good as well. Finally we'll have a party that stands for limited government.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
"hyper-religous zealotry of
"hyper-religous zealotry of the new GOP" ? We nominated John McCain. Actually I think Obama was more overtly religous than McCain. And if you're talking about jettisoning us SoCons, I seriously doubt you're going to find enough Libertarians to make up for it.
You did
But only because the hyper-religious zealot vote was split between Huck and Romney.
The two strongest currents within the GOP are aformentioned group and the anti-intellectuals, which is essentially the same group. Witness the serious calls for a Palin/Wurzelbacher ticket in 2012.
The social conservatives simply aren't enough to carry the party anymore. My generation is more liberal on social issues (and generally more conservative on fiscal issues). The anti-gay contingent of the party is turning off a lot of younger voters that could be life-long Republicans.
I'm thinking that Andrew Sullivan is right. The GOP will go the way of the Tories in the UK until they can reinvent themselves and appeal to the moderate again. The problem here is that the more the GOP loses, the more conservative and die-hard the base is -- which acts as a bulwark to internal party reform.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
SoCons can't by themselves
SoCons can't by themselves unfortunately, however, I fail to see how the Republican party can win without us. The hardcore SoCon ( and I wouldn't necesarily put myself in the hardcore group) vote is at least 20 -30% of the party, I have a hard time beleiving there are nearly enough Libertarians to make up for that.
You can always just ignore them
The Democrats have been doing that to their base since the early 90s.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Well in practice that may be
Well in practice that may be what's happening. However, if that becomes obvious, say a pro-Roe president get's nominated, you can expect a lot of folks, myself included, to walk.
To where?
Walk to where? The Democrats? Don't make me laugh. The Constitution Party? Again, don't make me laugh.
You and others with similar socially conservative beliefs will simply be marginalized. Simply being pro-life will upset enough coalition partners that no national politician would win either major party's nomination.
You will have to vote on the basis of other issues, just like I do with respect to ballot access/reform and IP laws. They are #1 and #2 on my top issues but no one (in a major party) even pays lip service to them. No one in a minor party even pays lip service to IP law, which is why I'm considering running on that platform in 2010.
Now there will always be enough pro-lifers and social conservatives to not render them completely irrelevant, but I will say that their influence has already reached it's high water mark. By all means, keep fighting the "good fight", but I think that the fight for Roe is over.
[and do bear in mind that I'm nominally pro-choice, but still anti-Roe]
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Well for starters I would
Well for starters I would probably go write - in, or third party. The Dems would certainly have a better chance at my vote, considering I'm split on economic issues, the Republicans might get me back on foreign policy depending on where they and I land on that issue in the future. Actualy I think if the Republicans were to totally abandon SoCons you would see a third party come into being, that would not actually win, but would do very well for a third party. I think a SoCon third party would perform about as well as Ross Perot did, and pull in between 15 and 20% of the vote, the Republicans would lose badly due to the fact that there simply are not enough Libertarians to make up for the SoCons. This is how I see a presidential run in which Republicans have rejected SoCons playing out: Democrats - 49%, Republicans - 35%, Third party SoCon candiate - 15%, random third party canidates - 1%. The SoCon party would even likely win some Southern states and Great Plain states. This is why despite claims that Republicans could cast off Social Conservative support, even the Social moderates like Guiliani don't even dare to try it out.
Umm Stiney...
Hint...from past experience...don't piss off the good guys....
And yes...those are some really good folks...
They will always be Repubs because they a conservatives.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Very well put
I know that sounds pretty awful to the SoCon camp, but Stiney is reading the tea leaves. The future is not with the SoCons. Each generation is leaning towards more and more individual liberty from the State for those things having to do with one's own body and mind (sex, marriage, drugs, abortion, even religion to a degree, etc). Either the SoCons take solace in the idea that "just because it's legal doesn't make it right" and continue to support GOP for other conservative reasons, or they continue to alienate the libertarian / Randian types and marginalize the entire GOP.
I personally think that we do need an effective counterbalance to the seductive "socialist" aspects of the Democratic party, and the marriage of economic Libertarians with economic conservatives is a natural; the only thing preventing it is the tendency of the current GOP to want to use the power of the State in private matters (abortion, gay marriage, teaching creationism, etc).
Liberty, true liberty, is a double-edged sword. It means you have to give people the freedom to make what you might personally believe are bad, wrong, awful, immoral decisions. But the time has come for the GOP to decide whether such decisions are more vital to our country's future than, say, fiscal conservatism, economic libertarianism, or the idea that reliance on self is better than reliance on the state.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
Ignoring what I've said about
Ignoring what I've said about the fact that there simply are not enough libertarians to replace SoCons ( which honestly I can't prove right now, and I think all of this tends to be an arguement where everybody consider's there view to be most popular, thus, libertarian leaning people such as Stinerman assume more people are like him on social issues, and I probably do the same) consider the fact that nobody is doing what you guys are suggesting. Romney was at one time a Social liberal, however, he totally flipped to appease SoCons. Rudy a Social Liberal spent much of the campaign trying to smooth things over with SoCons, McCain makes a comment supporting Roe, and then quickly backtracks, and promises that his judges will overturn Roe. Look at the front bench for 2012: Romney, Huckabee, Palin, Jindal, Mark Sanford, Tim Pawlentry. That group is 100% pro-life. If it were possible to jettison SoCons from the party and was such a good idea, somebody would be trying it. However, politicians live in the real world, where unlike on the internet, libertarians do not outnumber SoCons.
Yeah, but they lost
Liberalish Libertarians will never support a GOP candidate until the SoCon agenda is not part of the GOP platform. Given that, it is terribly difficult to point to any recent candidancies as proof that they would not support a socially liberal GOP. But if the GOP were to go pro-choice / pro-marry-whomever-you-like and anti-creationism-in-schools this very second, what other signifianct barriers to their inclusion in the GOP exist?
Of course, I have no proof that they would -- except for the fact that they do not currently feel a part of the Democratic party, nor are they really comfortable within today's Libertarian party; they're yellows (or purples), but not of the same ilk as the vaguely wild-eyed Libertarian candiates the Libertarians seem to like to field in most races. So there's that, and the relentless march of history that has seen all manner of social barriers and former taboos fall.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
I agree
but I think it misses the point. There are far less big-L Libertarians than Socons. No doubt about that. But the point I think is that social conservative issues are losing ground with the public as a whole. Abortion remains highly contentious but beyond that support for Gay marriage has slowly but steadily grown. Support for gays in the military has grown. Abstinenece only education has proven woefully inadequate (although I can't say for sure that it is less popular, but by all rights it should be). Church attendance continues to decline, "non-religious" personal identification continues to grow.
So no Libertarians can't replace the Socon, but right now the GOP is hemmoraging moderates at an extraordinary pace. A lot of those moderates can be considered soft libertarians, or people with libertaian sympathies, ad without them the GOP can't win. Granted the GOP can still win by running a charismatic candidate or if given another 9/11 event to capitalize on, or in response to democratic over-reach. But that's fighting against the tide and it'll keep getting harder so long as the GOP is trying to sell something the public doesn't like.
You can only stand athwart histor, yelling "stop," for so long. Eventually you either move or history runs you over.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I think there's probably less
I think there's probably less small 'l' libertarians than SoCons also. The trend may be against SoCons, but I still don't see a path to the power for Repubs without them at this time, maybe there will be sometime, but not now. Personaly the Republican Party will probably have my vote for Senate and President as long as they support Originalists judges, and everybody else will have my vote as long as they're pro-life, I could compromise on marriage and such. That said considering gay marriage went down in California I don't think that's a losing issue for Republicans yet.
This is the problem with coalitions
based on some murky notions of "conservative" to bind it together.
As much as it makes my stomach turn to say this, the economic populists and social conservatives are a better match on the issues and form a dominant group in the general population. Yet, aside from blacks, the solidly religious ones tend to break toward the GOP because of aborition and a stricter interpretation of morality based the individual needing "to behave one's self" (in a manner of speaking) in order to find God.
Evangelical liberals say the way to success politically is the unification of social democrats on economic issues and social conservatives on social issues...in other words: the "Christian Democrats" like we see in Europe. Social Conservatives tend to respond to economic populism and will join the cause if it is blended with social conservativism....ala William Jennings Bryan.
Definitely not where I want to be but it would sure make it easier for me to join a party....a losing party but a major party nonetheless.
Oh no - I disagree completely..
..In fact, the religous components of the party have made up much less of it's voice, then say the 80's or 90's when the moral majority and religous right had a big say. I see now the leadership and the core republicans foucused on coming back to the platform, and even more conservatives coming back to core conservatism and dropping the neo-con lead, which is right up a libertarians alley. Anyway, you are not on target here....
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
To make a long post short
I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Me too...
I could be off too, that is where I am focusing my attention and developing consciousness amongst Repubs, I am aware as some have pointed out today there are still plenty of Christian Repubs, and we luv 'em, but the focus has to come back to our founding principles...that is where we must make a stand.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
If you go back to Goldwater
You may find me voting more for Rs than Ds. :-)
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
We're work'in on exactly that!
;-)
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Who is we?
Doesn't seem like the party in general is trying that.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
A blind squirrel can find a nut from time to time
He makes a point and I'll grant him that.
However, I wouldn't be in the habit of reading Dondero. He's first and foremost a major ... he's not an amenable fellow let's just say. Ask any regular commenter at Reason or anyone who follows the minor party scene. He's essentially a professional troll who got booted out of Ron Paul's operation because he disagreed with Paul's opposition to the Iraqi war.
Eric Dondero is a standard conservative Republican who attempts very poorly to play a Libertarian on the Internet.
File this one under ad hominem, but it also happens to be true.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
I don't know him...
...but I will say that there is definitely the expected acid reflux reaction to the new dominate party, and that will only continue to feed the very heart of the capitalist in everyone - as the communal aspect of the dem's making all your choices for you, and you paying for all of theirs...comes home to roost, for lack of a better terminology.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Eric Dondero is a standard
Minus the Social issues. He's what I ( and I think he would too) would describe as NeoCon libertarian.
Stiney seems to go to something deeper than his politics...
I'm not sure...
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Ah, Dondero.
I'm not too fond of him...to put it lightly.
Norm Ornstein
author of a book about Congress, our broken branch of government, and resident scholar at the AEI institute pens a piece on Obama's battle to fight to change the ways in Washington.
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=605e31e2-d130-4f17-894d-409a18...
Say what you will, in whatever partisan attack mode you chose, but the Obama administration is fighting a tough fight. He was handed a crap economy, a plate on foreign affairs that has been stirred by undiplomatic neo-cons, and he is trying to work this mess out, while getting the stink of the old ways out of Washington.
Worse, if he doesn't succeed, in kick starting our economy with a serious jobs creation package, we are ALL in big trouble.
While we may all have gotten here on different ships, that lean to the left or to the right, we are now all in the same boat, like or not, face up to it or not we are in a very serious national economic crises.
The gravity of the situation is eye popping.
The District of Corruption
I'm only half stupid
Stimulus
+5+!
;-)
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman