Weekend Open Thread

Hot diggity daffodil, the weekend is finally here!

Today's "question": Name one government program you like that is, in your view, unconstitutional.

 

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Couble of maybes

1. The office of faith-based initiatives.  It depends whether any public expeditures go to proselytizing.  But I don't see how it can't happen one way or the other.  The people who run these worthy organizations are often required by their faith to spread it.

2.  The no-fly list.  A secret database that restricts American's freedom of movement with little or no accountability.  Is the "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" thing in the Constitution or the Declaration?  Can't remember.  Anyhoo, I'm sure it at least kinda violates some part of the Bill O' Rights.

3. If it still exists, whatever the warrantless wiretapping program callled.  Wiretapping without warrant = unreasonable search = clear 4th amendment violation.  Claiming the vagueness of Article II powers allows one to violate the 4th is ridiculous irrelevant post hoc BS and that was one clear impeachable offense and breach of the Oath of Office and Congress is full of cowards.

4. Grey area: private credit reporting companies like Equifax.  They also violate my 4th amendment rights by collecting often erroneous data, selling it, and putting the burden on ME to prove my identity was stolen or that they got my address wrong.  If such services are necessary in our society they must be administered publicly with accountability and privacy guarantees.

5. American forces in Iraq and Afganistan, waging WAR by almost any definition, without a formal declaration of war by Congress.

…………

I'm wondering if you missed

I'm wondering if you missed the part where you were asked to list a government program you liked that you also see as unconstitutional.

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Hmm, yeah

I have to read too much boring stuff at work and I tend to, uh, skim over words.

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well you did say maybe...

 :-)

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ML = Defender of Mediocracy!

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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House Appropriations Chair On Pork - To Americans; SO WHAT!

This is disgusting !

When this bill passes, a Niagara Falls of money will flow out of Washington and into the accounts of state highway commissioners, governors and legislatures, local school boards, county executives — even mayors, Binder says.

"It raises a whole host of questions about how efficiently money can be spent, how effectively it will be spent, how quickly money can be spent, just because there's no set process here for determining how money will get out the door to create jobs or, as the president said, to save jobs," she says.

 

"We simply made a decision, which took about three seconds, not to have earmarks in the bill," he says. "And with all due respect, that's the least important question facing us on putting together this package."

Leaving out the earmarks does mean Congress will have less control over how the money is spent. But, Obey says, "So what? This is an emergency. We've got to simply find a way to get this done as fast as possible and as well as possible, and that's what we're doing."

That doesn't mean Congress will be responsible if the money is spent badly, he says.

"The person who spends the money badly will be responsible. We are simply trying to build as many protections in as possible," Obey says. "We have more oversight built into this package than any package in the history of man. If money is spent badly, we want to know about it so we can hold accountable the people who made that choice. And guess what? Regardless of what we do, there will be some stupid decisions made."

 

 The whole stimulus is a bad decision!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Can we assume you were

 equally outraged when Republicans put billions worth of spending 'off budget' when they were in power?

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Yes you could.

This is even more egregious, in that Democrats are trying to stimulate the government, and not the economy!

These are extraordinary times, and like a lot of Republicans I believe that a well-crafted stimulus plan is needed to put people back to work. But the Obama spending bill would stimulate the government, not the economy.

We're on an economic tightrope. The package that passed the House is a huge increase in the amount of government borrowing. And we've borrowed so much already that if we add too much more debt, or spend foolishly, we could invite an even bigger crisis.

We could precipitate a worldwide crisis of confidence in America, leading to a run on the dollar or hyperinflation that wipes out family savings and devastates the middle class.

As someone who spent a career in the private sector, I'd like to see a stimulus package that respects the productivity and genius of the American people. And experience shows us what it should look like.

First, there are two ways you can put money into the economy, by spending more or by taxing less. But if it's stimulus you want, taxing less works best. That's why permanent tax cuts should be the centerpiece of the economic stimulus.

As we take out nonessential projects, we should focus on funding the real needs of government that will have immediate impact. And what better place to begin than repairing and replacing military equipment that was damaged or destroyed in Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan?

Second, any new spending must be strictly limited to projects that are essential. How do we define essential? Well, a good rule is that the projects we fund in a stimulus should be legitimate government priorities that would have been carried out in the future anyway, and are simply being moved up to create those jobs now.

In the final analysis, we know that only the private sector -- entrepreneurs and businesses large and small -- can create the millions of jobs our country needs. The invisible hand of the market always moves faster and better than the heavy hand of government.

Third, sending out rebate checks to citizens and businesses is not a tax cut. The media bought this line so far, but they've got it wrong. Checks in the mail are refunds, not tax cuts. We tried rebate checks in 2008 and they did virtually nothing to jump-start the economy. Disposable income went up, but consumption hardly moved.

Businesses aren't stupid. They're not going to invest in equipment and new hires for a one-time, short-term blip. What's needed are permanent rate cuts on individuals and businesses.

Fourth, if we're going to tax less and spend more to get the economy moving, then we have to make another commitment as well. As soon as this economy recovers, we have to regain control over the federal budget, and above all, over entitlement spending for programs such as Social Security and Medicare. This is more important than most people are willing to admit.

There is a real danger that with trillions of additional borrowing -- from the budget deficit and from the stimulus -- world investors will begin to fear that our dollars won't be worth much in the future. It is essential that we demonstrate our commitment to maintaining the value of the dollar. That means showing the world that we will put a stop to runaway spending and borrowing.

Fifth, we must begin to recover from the enormous losses in the capital investment pool. And the surest, most obvious way to get that done is to send a clear signal that there will be no tax increases on investment and capital gains. The 2001 and 2003 tax cuts should be extended permanently, or at least temporarily.

And finally, let's exercise restraint in the size of the stimulus package. Last year, with the economy already faltering, I proposed a stimulus of $233 billion. The Washington Post said: "Romney's plan is way too big." So what critique will the media have for the size of the Obama package?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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HAPPY BIRTHDAY RONNIE!

From all of us who miss your common sense and humor!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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So out of curiosity

given that you seem very concerned about Iran...

How do you feel about Reagan's administration selling weapons to the Iranians illegally?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I felt bad about it...

Duh...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Hopefully this a democratic spin!

But they're claiming a tenative plan is in place , Repub's deny it though...

Reid is under big time pressure to get it done from Obama!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Let them filibuster

Make them drag out the cots and talk all night for days and obstruct relief for real people while they run their mouths about the need for capital gains tax cuts and other BS.

The Republican brand is already about as worthless as a Circuit City gift card. After a good long filibuster they'll all need bodyguards.

 

qui tacet consentire

…………

Why, the Obama stimulus is an unpopular deal...

..it's popularity has dropped every day...it's at only 37% now!

In fact CBO predicts it will hurt GDP:

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net. [The House bill] would have similar long-run effects, CBO said in a letter to Sen. Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Republican, who was tapped by Mr. Obama on Tuesday to be Commerce Secretary.

Does that sound like stimulus to you?

How about those prospects of  keynesian stimulus working out...

Or . . . not, actually . In related news, we are expanding the welfare state to the tune of $1.34 trillion over a ten year period. Oh, and you have to love the precision associated with the whole exercise. As Lando Calrissian would put it, “This deal is getting worse all the time.”

Look dude, people want stimulus, not gigantic government programs and long term overhead!

Ok.

You are all a bunch of sheep!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Operation Zero Credibility

 The anti-government crowd, like yourself are the ones that put us in this economic mess.  Why should we give the slightest weight to any of your ideas or one iota of credence to your insane anti-government rantings? 

 RedState couldn't make enough  excuses to support the fiscal policies of George W Bush and now you want to implement the exact same policies as a solution to an economic crises?

 No thanks.

 

 

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Enough is enough Miss L...

"My' kind of government?

Listen, "my" kind of government gave us the longest sustained period of economic prosperity in the history of the country. My kind of government is simply what the constitution prescribes our government is to be.

"Your" kind of government on the other hand, is all about this insidious, gradual, usurpation of our founding principles, it's an attempt to conform this country to an anomalous, homogenized, communal existence, that is fundamentally unconstitutional, consequently un-American, and is born out of a dependence increasing, rather than liberty enhancing social and political archetype.

You know what ML, you harangue away with this repetitive, incoherent, diminutive drivel, even as the most gracious, accommodating, and insightful members of SC can not manage to penetrate it's incesant permutation.

Day in and day out, one benevolent SC member after another indulges you, admirably trying to induce you into a reasonable understanding, or advance your unsubstantiated, faulty logic to some modicum of fruition, all have done so without the benefit of success.

It's just gotten old, boring, and is now bordering on extremely annoying.

Get past the extreme partisan fiction you have adopted, lose the failed attempt at literary grandeur, and as unpretentiously as possible, explain in accountable language how you justify your conjecture...assuming that is even possible.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Excuse me.....

for interrupting your hysterical rant.  The longest period of economc prosperity....... we had safety nets, and taxes, or what you deem 'tyranny'.

You are going over the edge here and rewriting history as if we had no government during your imaginary utopian period of history.. But people rewrite history all the time, so your revisionism is not surprising.

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Of course...the old ML hook slide...

Let me say it once more for your benefit:

RW: Get past the extreme partisan fiction you have adopted, lose the failed attempt at literary grandeur, and as unpretentiously as possible, explain in accountable language how you justify your conjecture

If I'm rewriting history, and if everyone else here is so wrong according to you...take the above advice and set the record right.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Sorry to burst your bubble, missliberties, but

unfortunately, the Democrats, too contributed a great deal to the mess that we're presently in by going in lock-step with the Republicans pretty much every inch of the way, including our Iraq war and its continued funding, FISA, and a whole bunch of other stuff.  They  need to grow pairs and fight back more than they're doing. 

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It's Confirmed: Barack Obama Is An Anti American Zealot...

...HT: Dan McLaughlin

... George Will reports on unconstitutional Democratic efforts to give a House seat to DC , while Dan Spencer notes that Obama is leaving the door open to use the equally unconstitutional “census sampling” method in the 2010 census by taking control of the Census Bureau away from the Commerce Secretary and having it report directly to the White House, in light of Obama having named as his second pick for Commerce Republican Senator Judd Gregg, who in 1999 passed an amendment that defunded sampling efforts (as I have noted before, running the census is one of the major jobs of Commerce ). Meanwhile, the card check bill, is on its way , and Obama’s appointee for Labor Secretary is tied to lobbyists for the bill . And this is before we get into all of the payoffs to liberal interest groups in the inaptly named “stimulus” bill.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That's anti-american?

It's political manuevering and potentially unethical which is about as american as it gets...

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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It's 14 days of tyranny!

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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You know, RW

sometimes I wonder if your really writing a parody of a rightwing poster.  Just saying.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I know exactly how you feel...

...in reverse... :-)

You guys are amazing, without the few of us to keep you honest, SC would be nothing but one big ultra liberal echo chamber...

...not one of you guys had the nuts to question the stimulus package, not the water park, the contraceptives, nothing....you guys are like a bunch of mice in a daze just tailing after the pied piper.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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More reality, please.

Not one of us had the guts to question the stimulus bill?  In what alternate reality, RW?  MOST of us have had reservations about one aspect of the bill or another.  Some of us think that the stimulus is still a good deal (the drawbacks outweigh the benefits) and some don't.  I'm pretty much in the middle where I'm not sure the bill will do much of anything.

Take the contraceptive issue for example.  You and a couple others have argued against it.  I and a couple others have argued it makes sense to have int he bill.  That's not being in a dze, that's taking a position and defending it.  It might be the wrong decision of course, but it is still an intellectual exercise.

On the other hand referring to the first two weeks of Obama's presidency as "tyranny" is ridiculous.  Not much of anything has even happened!  Some appointees have gotten through congress and a major funding bill has gotten debated and voted on in the house.  If that's tyranny to you then the word has no meaning.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Read the post, it is hardly just a couple of tax evaders being..

...appointed...Try..

Card Check coming up,,,

after all the promises, no meaningful bipartisanship on behalf of the Dem's!

The control over the sensus has been brought into Ron Emanuels office!

The attempt to give the district of culombia a house seat!

The indebting of our children to the tune of a trillion dollars!

etc. etc. etc...

Read it yourself.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Again, where's the tyranny?

Card check means people can unionize easier.  Oh god the horror.

The census is alwasy controlled by someone who determines the method, and yes those people always try to game the system to help their side a bit.  If that's tyranny we've always been under tyrants.

Giving DC representation?  I can see good arguments either way but neither one remotely counts as tyranny.

I don't like deficit spending in general.  During an economic recession or depression is one of the exceptions.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Everywhere...

Come on Tlaloc...Card check means one of the fundamental rights of a free society, the blind vote, is going to be taken away from union members...

No the Census is not always ran by somebody, it is always run by the commerce secretary, in fact that is one of their main duties. By bringing it in to the White House, Obama will effectively be able to keep the door open for cencus sampling, which is unconstitutional, anyway, if you care do the homework...

Yes giving DC representation in the House is unconstitutional, and along with the card check and census items, is equivalent to tyranny.

Tyranny is arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power, right? Think about it.

As far as economics, my position is readily available around the site. But why would you spend more in a recession or worse, it has historically failed, is that a plot to exercise your anarchist motivations? ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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"blind vote" is not a fundamental right

First, the blind vote (secret ballot) is a rather recent innovation, designed to address specific problems that emerged in the electoral system. I don't think it qualifies as "fundamental".

Second, there isn't any reason that union formation should be determined by a vote at all. It is more akin to a contractual arrangement among workers.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Adam, that's just nonsense...

The secret ballot goes back to greece, but in the US you could make the argument that everything is a rather new innovation. The secret ballot is no more recent, and is as much a part of the fabric of American life as is Baseball or Chevrolet...so you be the judge.

As for your POV on unionization...you might want to go apply for a job in the Obama administration.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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are they unionized?

you might want to go apply for a job in the Obama administration.

If the opinion that I expressed is the only requirement, then I'm sure that there are millions of Americans who could join the administration (and don't have anything better to do)

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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What makes you think unions have a right...

...to orginize,

and furthermore,

where are your rights, when you are being forced to vote openly, in front of your labor orginizing boss, against the union...

I am surprised you are in support of this?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Is it not obvious?

What makes you think unions have a right to orginize (sic)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Unless the union is going to cause a public disturbance, they have the right to organize.  A right-thinking strict constructionist like yourself should know that.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I do not read anything in the BoR that...

...gives one any right whatsoever to conduct the business of a syndicate within a private enterprise.

If the enterprise is not conforming to some law, or standards of commerce, there are sufficient means of redress.

Unions are unconstitutional, and furthermore,if there was a time they were needed, it has long passed.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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right to organize?

As Steinerman suggested, free men-- by default-- have the right to organize themselves for whatever reason that isn't criminal. Last time I checked, negotiating for higher wages is not criminal.

As for denying the wishes of co-workers or neighbors -- people have to do it every day. It's part of being an adult in a free society.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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I've found you support what you like regardless of...

...the constitution...so...

A group of employees approaching the owner, or management of a business and negotiating for a benefit, or condition of employment is perfectly reasonable and happens everyday.

The formation of an alien cartel with the intent of controlling it's operation is  far different.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Inquiring minds want to know

What's your feelings on tennis clubs, gated communities, and...?
If a gated community wanted to strike a deal with an "alien cartel" to decide on who gets in, what's stopping the gated community from doing so?

I'm not aware that there any government forced yet private unions in private industry, are there any?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I am no lawyer...

...but regardless of the relationship with whatever entity, I assume any decent attorney could dig up some laws that could apply.

However, many high end buildings in NYC known as co-ops do it all the time.

Why?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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if unions are illegitimate, then voting is irrelevant

The formation of an alien cartel with the intent of controlling it's operation is  far different.

It seems that you think that unions are illegitimate. If that is the case, then the manner in which they are organized is irrelevant.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Thats true, and a very good point, however...

...they do exist, and they are about to take the most fundamental of rights away from those already enslaved (Yes its a word chosen for effect) in unions already.

If it was such a no big deal sort of affair, way do the members themselves not opt for it?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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the workers can always leave...

I'm not sure what you mean by "not opt for it", but I have to leave now and can't dig into the text of the law.

However, if you are so concerned about unions "enslaving" workers, take some comfort in the knowledge that a worker can always leave his job if he doesn't like his working environment. In other words, because the union only exerts influence via the worker's relationship with his employer, the union cannot have any power over the workers that the employer didn't have in the first place.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Not so Adam....

...a worker can always leave his job if he doesn't like his working environment.

How nice. But you claim Unions have a right to unionize at will, so where is this worker to go?

In other words, because the union only exerts influence via the worker's relationship with his employer,

Absolutly untrue, a union regulates and influences it's members in a broad manner.

the union cannot have any power over the workers that the employer didn't have in the first place.

Again total BS. They have a whole new set of requirements and criteria for the member to keep in accordance with.

You evidently have very little union experience.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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representation for Washington D.C.

As George Will pointed out (in RedWing's post), it seems that simply granting representation to D.C. would be unconstitutional.

I think that DC should have representation.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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I think a lot of things, doesn't mean much though...

This is not an interpetation concern, it is clear and in black and white . It applies to DC, as well as Puerto Rico, US VI, etc.

Section 2 - The House

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States

Section 3 - The Senate

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, (chosen by the Legislature thereof,) [The preceding words in parentheses superseded by 17th Amendment, section 1.]…

Amendment 17 - Senators Elected by Popular VoteRatified 4/8/1913.

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.

When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.

 

Rep. Tom Price can make the point crystal clear for you.

 

Listen, they have a District of Columbia Committee in the House.

No, I think 535 representatives is quite enough.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I said that you were right about Constitutionality

I think that they should have representation as a general principle, not as a Constitutional interpretation. The Constitution can be amended. In fact, it can also be ignored (and it typically is).

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Ok...

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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There is no One True Path

There are arguments for and against the constitutionality of giving DC a seat in the House.

The argument I buy is the same one that you do: that DC is not a state, and therefore is not qualified to have a member in the House absent a constitutional amendment.

The argument of the other side is that Congress has pleniary control over DC and can do as they wish with respect to it.  It's a reasonable argument, but I just happen to not be swayed by it.

The same goes for the "sampling" method and the card-check bill.

People are not anti-American because they disagree with your view of the Constitution or the limitations of government.  They just have different ideas than you do.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Good statement, Stiney

People are not anti-American because they disagree with your view of the Constitution or the limitations of government.

That needs to be said to every idealogue in the country..... .but mainly to conservatives, because they are the ones that 99% of the time throw out the "anti-American" label at those that disagree with them.

I think Red_Wing is misinformed and wrong-headed in his views... but I would never use the words un-American, unpatriotic, anti-American, or traitor to describe him.  

But the right in this country has no qualms about calling those that disagree with them "traitors".  And that kind of bullshit needs to stop.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

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no, it's not a reasonable argument

The argument of the other side is that Congress has pleniary control over DC and can do as they wish with respect to it.  It's a reasonable argument, but I just happen to not be swayed by it.

By that logic, every person in DC could be given a seat in the House.

It is NOT a reasonable argument. Of course, I'm one of those guys who does not think it is reasonable to interpret "regulate interstate commerce" to mean that the Feds can regulate/prohibit any and every aspect of our economic life anywhere in the country (such as the production of marijuana in states that permit its medical use).

Sometimes when the government ignores the Constitution, it is a simple power grab. Other times, it could be to institute a bit of fairness in representation at the Federal level. Whatever.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Senator James Inhofe calls it - Stimulus is 93% garbage...

February 6, 2009



WASHINGTON, DC - U.S. Senator James Inhofe (R-Okla.) , issued the following statement tonight after the announcement of a compromise on the Senate stimulus bill.

"While I appreciate the efforts of my colleagues to bring down the price tag of this bill, the fact is we still face a trillion dollar spending bill. Making it worse, the bill is 93% spending and only 7% stimulation.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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So? He denies CO2 causes global warming.

He denies global warming period.  Talk about a flat earther...

You don't see us liberals using Mao to bolster our arguments.  You should be more careful choosing your important voices of conservatism.  Next thing you'll be using Rush Limbaugh as a paragon of conservative virtue.

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As expected...

...absurdity.

Because he is not a global warming neophyte, he can not tell the difference between true productive spending, and crap? Nonsense.

This stinker of a legislative boondoggle's stench is everywhere, pick your poison.

You may not use Mao, yet, but you might consider it, because certainly no voice from the left has made any other reasonable argument defending $750B worth of  excrement, or explains why, in a time of national crisis, we are not putting any stimulus - in our stimulus bill.

But instead, like the good little sheep that you are, you're justifying the borrowing of yet another trillion + dollars from China, the printing of even more soon to be worthless money, and for what, to expand our government, create even more federal programs, inrease long term federal spending, grow the national debt... and unltimately manifesting even bigger problems for the economy.

What are you thinking? You're not, at least not for yourself.

Anyway...bad mouthing conservatives is your pastime, and we understand that, but at a minimum back it up with some facts and figures (I realize that's the problem for you on this one), make a case for your position, that, or piss off back to where you came from. Perferably the latter. ;-)

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Spending is stiumulus

 you bobble head.

 

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And that notion

is the crux of the issue.

"Any money the government spends is stimulus"

So very wrong, but it seems so common-sensical to you, doesn't it?  And it has the added appeal of being emotionally satisfying.   I don't know how to get past that with you, nor anyone else here who is caught up in the romantic idea that this $trillion is going to save jobs and minimize upheaval and has to be passed right-this-second or the world will end.  That we're going to be able to have our cake and eat it too.  Better writers than I have tried. 

We've spent a trillion on Iraq, and that "stimulus" has certainly saved our economy, hasn't it?  /end satirical attempt at exposition.

At this point, it's moot.   Some type of gargantuan spending bill will pass using this crisis as political cover and we will all just have to wait for the future to reveal itself. 

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Romantic Notion (!)

Give me a fricking break PF. Emotionally satisfying.That's a pretty ugly thing to say.

This is not my idea of romance. If that is how you characterize recognizing the needs of this moment, as if somehow this is my 'dream come true', frankly that's quite insulting.

 I deeply resent this whole mess. I did not vote for GWB. I did not support his trillion dollar off budget war. I did not support tax cuts during a time of war. And I resent the fact that instead of looking forward to retiring, and doing things I enjoy, I will likely have to pinch pennies to get by, or work until I am 80.

 I am quite furious that our new President was handed a hot crap sandwich, gift wrapped with a nice red bow waiting for him in the Oval Office. Now we have to 'deal' with it.

 If you want to blame someone, then blame the Hedge Funders who took trillions out of our economy, by ignoring the rules to 'invest' in our pensions funds, with uninsured mortgage debt. At the time I brought up the questionable ethics of these hedge funders, I believe you were busy defending them.

   Really PF your comment is disappointing. I get zero satisfaction out of this. I resent being put in this position in the first place and your claim that I am some how romanticized of the notion of spending a trillion dollars is flat out false and frankly makes me a little angry.  

 That said, I am glad you expressed your honest opinion.

………… parent

And what of that notion that PF pointed out that is

"the crux of the issue"?

"Any money the government spends is stimulus"

Responding to that notion was the root of PF's post. You seem to have not addressed it.

Just an observation.....

………… parent

Government spending from

Government spending from NASA created the computer chip.

Government spending on GI education.

Government spending on highways.

 These are all examples of government spending that is stimulative.

So yes government spending is stimulus. It circulates money into the economy.

 As near as I can tell, just because my father used government money to get an education, he isn't a slave to the state. 

 If you look at the current stimulus bill, there are many good things in it that will be stimulative to the economy. 

 Head Start invests in a resource for the future, our children.

  Govt money for smart cars supports the research and technology that will create a framework for the future.

  Especially investment in broad band infrastructure will help improve our society with an eye towards the future.

   And all of this will help to at least stop the bleeding in the jobs market with an eye to what the future economy will look like.

   This is an opportunity to really jump start the economy with an eye on the future, except that the GOP is taking out some of the most effective pieces of the bill, not for the good of the country, but for political posturing. 

  

………… parent

It's the facts, stupid...

NASA did not create the computer chip...the vaccum tube was invented at the turn of the 20th century century and the transistor was invented in the 1940s.

Stop romanticizing the GI bill...a hundred million people worldwide died in that war. You are either advocating mass murder or mass involuntary servitude as a precondition for  your glorious education bill. It literally makes me sick to my stomach.

Government spending on highways. Yeah, whatever. Where I live, it literally took the State 15 years to expand a realtively modest 2-lane strecth of freeway into 3 lanes. And I have absolutely ZERO tolerance for being constantly stuck in trafic because of bad, inefficient planning.

I'm sure I echo the thoughts of everyone else on this board that none of us have absolutely no idea what you mean by Government smart cars.

There's no need for "government investment in broad technology." You can get broad band access to the internet virtually anywhere. Allow me to point out that the future of such communications is going to trend more and more toward wireless. The more government gets involved, with it's copyright czars ,survelliance and censorship, the worse it all gets. Well, of course, I can't discount the fact that you are a contemptous statist who relishes government censorhsip of communication networks.

 

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

Let the revolution begin....

 Romance is the new 'trendy' word of the week.

 You can go back the the zero, the Christians and the Jews fighting over the morality of charging compound interest for loans if you want historical perspective on wars and computer chips.

 I will romanticize the GI bill with the freedom of my own self will. It was a good program and a good response to a situation where too many people were flooding the markets without enough jobs to fill.

 I appreciate our highways built with government funds.

 I admire the idealism in your views, and appreciate your willingness to fight the good fight, but you are a wee bit over the top with your hating everything that moves cause it might be connected to some government conspiracy that is trying to get you down.

_____

To see what  a government program can do for the research and development of the computer chip, click below.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Nasa+Computer+Chip&i...

 

………… parent

Babble...

You can go back the the zero, the Christians and the Jews fighting over the morality of charging compound interest for loans if you want historical perspective on wars and computer chips.

Is it fair to say I'm not alone in being baffled how 1st Century AD Chrisitan doctrine concerning usury relates to 20th century electronics?

I will romanticize the GI bill with the freedom of my own self will.

Well, fine. I'm pointing out that there were 100 million people or so who ended in pine boxes that likely wouldn't share your romanticism.

I appreciate our highways built with government funds.

Great, but then don't bitch about Walmart or automobile CO2 emissions being the result of a free market.

 

 

but you are a wee bit over the top with your hating everything that moves cause it might be connected to some government conspiracy that is trying to get you down.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one who trades in personal accounts of how the Republicans are engaged in a continual conspiracy to destroy your retirement and keep you working well into your old age. I think government behavior is an empirical, economic predictable event. You're the one, however, who thinks government would work beautifully if not for the shadowy conspiracy of those dedicated to obstructing it. Don't paint me with your conspiracy theories. I don't need to resort to the conspiracy of angels to explain gravitatation, but it's pretty freakin obvious that you resort to the conspiracy of the likes of , say, the GOP to explain Public choice.

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

Your hostility

 is a bit surprising.

 Blame me for the ills of the world if you wish. Your anger is misplaced...

From building hiways to don't bitch about Wal-Mart. Wow! Good one. Zing. You got me there. Who knew that highways would be the birth of Wal-Mart!

 Bitching is the American way. Isn't that what you are doing right now?

Later dude.

 

………… parent

weak ad hominem diversion...

you can't answer my logical criticism, instead resorting to calling me out for bitching; strange coming from a poster who has and order of magnitude or two greater posts on this forum than I have. Freakin lame...

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

If you are trying

to convert me to your way of thinking it's certainly not working.

Find  yourself a more worthy opponent.

………… parent

Don't necessarily conflate debate with evangelism,...

 nm...

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

Finally, she made a quality observation...

...and one it would behoove us all to heed...

ML: Find  yourself a more worthy opponent.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I could

just leave! Oh yeah!

 .....and you can all slap yourselves on the back with how brilliant you are and deride and slander all government institutions and public service. That will be fun for you!

 You can then have deep discussions about why a government job is not employment.

 You can talk about how when  a government employee spends money on stuff it just doesn't stimulate the economy like when the guy working as a hamburger flipper at  MacDonald's  spends his money.

 Have fun in your echo chamber. That'll be a great way to exchange ideas......!

 Oh wait you don't want to exchange ideas. You just want to follow people around and and tell them how much you hate the government, while you salute the flag and accuse anyone who disagrees with your way of thinking of being a criminal! Sweet!

It will be great! Have a good time talking to yourselves!! Ha Ha Ha!

He who has the last laugh wins! I win! 

 

………… parent

Leaving would not advance anything, it's simple...

Get past the extreme partisan fiction you have adopted, lose the failed attempt at literary grandeur, and as unpretentiously as possible, explain in accountable language how you justify your conjecture

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

So your answer is "yes"?

OK. I just want to make sure we got that simple answer.

Any government spending is stimulus

The key word being "any".

I'll keep that in mind....

 

………… parent

I believe in

 the answer was qualified, to govt programs that have been stimulative,  but read into it whatever suits your fancy.

………… parent

I missed that qualification.

sorry.

And BTW, I still don't see it.

………… parent

I am vindicated!!

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/05/AR2009020503413.html?sid=ST2009020600806&s_pos=

Steve Pearlstein takes Senators to task on the illiteracy that poses as floor speeches over the economic stiumulus.

 Yes Geraldine. Govt spending is stimulative. IN fact all spending is stimulative.

Even if the entire sum were to be stolen by federal employees and spent entirely on fast cars, fancy homes, gambling junkets and fancy clothes, it would still be an $800 billion increase in the demand for goods and services -- a pretty good working definition for economic stimulus. The only question is whether spending it on other things would create more long-term value, which it almost certainly would.

And then there is Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.), complaining in Wednesday's Wall Street Journal that of the 3 million jobs that the stimulus package might create or save, one in five will be government jobs, as if there is something inherently inferior or unsatisfactory about that. (Note to Coburn's political director: One in five workers in Oklahoma is employed by government.)

These tax credits make for great sound-bites and are music to the ears of politically active car salesmen and real estate brokers. Most economists, however, have warned that such credits will have limited impact at a time when house prices are still falling sharply and consumers are worried about their jobs and their shrinking retirement accounts. Even worse, they wind up wasting a lot of money because they give windfalls to millions of people who would have bought cars and houses anyway.

 

 

 

………… parent

broken window fallacy...

 nm

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

Who the heck is Steve Pearlstein??

...

………… parent

I am vindicated!!

Worth posting twice! More juicy tidbits. Thank You Steve Pearlstein. He even includes emotionalism, or romance  in his piece. 

 

Meanwhile, Nebraska's other senator, Ben Nelson (D), was heading up a centrist group that was determined to cut $100 billion from the stimulus bill. Among his targets: $1.1 billion for health-care research into what is cost-effective and what is not. An aide explained that, in the senator's opinion, there is "some spending that was more stimulative than other kinds of spending."

Oh really? I'm sure they'd love to have a presentation on that at the next meeting of the American Economic Association. Maybe the senator could use that opportunity to explain why a dollar spent by the government, or government contractor, to hire doctors, statisticians and software programmers is less stimulative than a dollar spent on hiring civil engineers and bulldozer operators and guys waving orange flags to build highways, which is what the senator says he prefers.

 

 

As any economist will tell you, the economy tends to be forward-looking and emotional.   [.. (how romantic) ..] So if businesses and households can see immediate benefits from a program while knowing that a bit more stimulus is on the way, they are likely to feel more confident that the recovery will be sustained. That confidence, in turn, will make them more likely to take the risk of buying big-ticket items now and investing in stocks or future ventures.

 

 

 

 

 

………… parent

To circle back around then

So, all government spending is stimulative, and therefore you must also believe that all the money that was spent on the Iraq war was stimulative.   Yes or no?    

I'm going to assume you answer "yes" simply because you've gone to such great trouble to find people who agree with your conjecture that all government spending is stimulative.

So, then, if the Iraq war was a huge stimulus package, if indeed all the mountains of debt run up by the last administration was merely stimulus in disguise, why is our economy in the tank?

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

Look, if spending were stimulus....

...we'd be the most robust, productive, stimulated nation in the history of the planet!

It's a lame cover for liberal partisan social spending and intentional expansion of the federal government.

(Sorry PF, didn't mean to jump in on the good point you are making... ;-)

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

To some degree one can reach

To some degree one can reach an alternate conclusion with the same idea.  We were a productive nation based on increadible amount of spending, both public and private, of money we simply didn't "have".  The Fed, having flooded our monetary system, fueled this boom because it removed the tether of productivity from wealth creation.  i.e. you didn't actually have to be doing anything valuable to get rich.  This is, I think, the point that ML is constantly driving toward.  She simply refuses to take it beyond the "overzealous CEO's" and see that it was not a product of their foolish business actions but a flawed monetary policy.  In effect, s/he and the people who think likewise are saying it's no big deal to print money so long as the people who get it are on a tight leash, except for the poor and middle class who know what they're doing and are doing the right thing instinctively.

………… parent

The allure of the

financing business  drew hordes of young adults to want to grow up to be financiers, instead of engineers or other callings that actually do something besides 'create wealth'. 

 The low interest rates were one piece of the puzzle.

  The complete lack of any enforcement in our regulatory structure was another.

 That hedge fund managers could manipulate enormous sums of cash with out being registered, specifically to 'protect' their dealings, and more specifically to avoid being tracked or regulated in any way.

  If we fired the whole lot at the SEC, scrapped their business model and started over, that would be a good place to start getting rid of the corrosive influence exerted by creating an industry where it is  too easy to manufacture wealth with high risk models, high leverages, and fools overseas to buy them for capital investment. 

………… parent

Well you've changed your post since, and...

...essentially tried to play into Magilsons post.

...but you originally said this, and when you say things like this;

...start getting rid of the corrosive influence exerted by to much wealth.

...you prove my assertion that you are indeed a social interventionist, and that sort of thinking is disturbing.

Scrapping the SEC...now we are in agreement.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

This is, again, a flawed

This is, again, a flawed understanding of the ability of financial firms to create wealth.  The appropriate allocation of capital is a task as important and the proper reinforcement of a damn or bridge.  As an engineer, if you give me the wrong idea about the way a machine will run (actively manipulating interest rates) I can absolutely garauntee the machine will not operate properly (increasingly riskier investment within the financial sector).  Every time.  And no, I'm not happy about having to use an analogy, but I'm not sure how else it can be explained to you.   In addition to these false signals of prosperity a significant number of homebuyers took on increased financial risk in the form of overly risky mortgages (it's the same overleveraging that the financial industry experienced for the exact same reasons, actually) and consequently they couldn't pay them back in the agreed upon manner.  Point in fact, it was the failure of payment on mortgages that was the early sign of an impending problem, not the other way around.  If you see this chicken v egg debate differently, let me know.  I have yet to see a good argument to reverse the actors.

For these reasons, I see the "low interest rates" as the cause of the problem.  As I tried, without success, to explain to Tlaloc, the financial managers will, without hesitation, take on more financial risk as s/he sees that money remains easy to acquire.  Some firms took on more risk than others and failed, or more correctly should have been allowed to fail so that firms that made smarter decisions could acquire their assets at the correct price.  All of this interaction can only be understood as the desire of our government as it was our government that chose to expand the credit market by lowering interest rates.  In other words, this must have been the desired outcome of Greenspan as it was caused, directly, but the Fed's manipulation.  To state otherwise is to care more about how exactly the window shattered instead of concentrating on who threw the rock.  Period.  (another analogy, I know.)

A complete lack of enforcement of our regulatory structure is a bold statement, and thusly I'm sure you have absolutely no way to back it up other than to say,"look around".  Spare me the need to say,"ditto" in reply.  I'll spend a few minutes on this idea if, and only if, you provide some data as to where all the money went that was spent, after an increase in amount, during the last 8 years.  Be comprehensive, please.  The last thing I want is another NYT article who's source "cannot be revealed".

If we fired the whole lot at the SEC, scrapped their business model and started over, that would be a good place to start getting rid of the corrosive influence exerted by to much wealth.

I completely agree.

………… parent

Mostly agree

The chicken or the egg which came first? Expanding credit also helped soak up a lot of inflationary(not sure if that's the right word) dollars and try to put it to constructive use.

 Well my statement about regulatory failure goes to lenders who took loan applications (for a fee, incentive) without verification. The mortgage companies that happily lapped them up, then bundled them and sold them. The regulatory agencies inside the mortgage companies that were supposed to look over the papers. The ratings agencies, like Moody's who rated triple A companies papers that should have been triple D, AND the insurance companies like AIG who insured the CDS, without looking at them. There was a culture of 'voluntary compliance' that backfired.

_______

   I  get a lot of this info from listening to CSpan and Congressional Testimony. So that's my main source.

  If you hook up to the CSPan web page you can watch all kinds of interesting testimony, and hear from all different sides and  kinds of 'experts'  on this housing debacle. 

 The most recent interesting testimony was the SEC being dragged before Congress, as to how, and why Bernie Madoff was able to engage in a Ponzi scheme for so long.

You really should watch it. The best drama on TV is the  Harry Markopolos the whistle blower testimony. Wow! Talk about making history come alive.

(CSpan is awesome. Tons of first hand info. They have some great history reviews on CSPan 3, which I don't get).

http://www.cspan.org/Series/Washington-Journal.aspx

That's tomorrow mornings line up of guests that you can call and talk to on the phone, and be on TV at the very same time!  

………… parent

Mostly agree

The chicken or the egg which came first? Expanding credit also helped soak up a lot of inflationary(not sure if that's the right word) dollars and try to put it to constructive use.

 Well my statement about regulatory failure goes to lenders who took loan applications (for a fee, incentive) without verification. The mortgage companies that happily lapped them up, then bundled them and sold them. The regulatory agencies inside the mortgage companies that were supposed to look over the papers. The ratings agencies, like Moody's who rated triple A companies papers that should have been triple D, AND the insurance companies like AIG who insured the CDS, without looking at them. There was a culture of 'voluntary compliance' that backfired.

_______

   I  get a lot of this info from listening to CSpan and Congressional Testimony. So that's my main source.

  If you hook up to the CSPan web page you can watch all kinds of interesting testimony, and hear from all different sides and  kinds of 'experts'  on this housing debacle. 

 The most recent interesting testimony was the SEC being dragged before Congress, as to how, and why Bernie Madoff was able to engage in a Ponzi scheme for so long.

You really should watch it. The best drama on TV is the  Harry Markopolos the whistle blower testimony. Wow! Talk about making history come alive.

(CSpan is awesome. Tons of first hand info. They have some great history reviews on CSPan 3, which I don't get).

http://www.cspan.org/Series/Washington-Journal.aspx

That's tomorrow mornings line up of guests that you can call and talk to on the phone, and be on TV at the very same time!  

………… parent

What? The chicken or the egg

What?

The chicken or the egg which came first? Expanding credit also helped soak up a lot of inflationary(not sure if that's the right word) dollars and try to put it to constructive use.

If this is the kind of economic understanding you've developed from C-Span I think I'll pass.  Expanding credit at a rate greater than the increase in wealth it may eventually generate is, by definition, inflation.  You can't soak up water with water.  You just can't.

………… parent

The analogy

 would be turning water into gold. It was a great magic trick, until the rest of us got stuck with rotten eggs.

 

………… parent

I totally agree with what you said, except...

...I was not really addressing that particularly, I simply, albeit sarcastically, was saying that we are not able to spend our way out from under an over spending problem, and this stimulus" package is in large part a not so subtle cover for the left's agenda, it terms of entrenching, and expanding the fed gov.

I honestly do not believe ML has much of a clue what she thinks past her evocative rhetoric surrounding the doom and gloom of it all.

At least we are all still waiting...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I bet...

...that the Iraqi economy has been stimulated by some of the Iraq war spending. Not the first part, where the money went towards destroying the Iraqi infrastructure, but certainly later on, when it went to rebuilding it. So our government spending money to stimulate Iraq's economy is neither inconsistent with the premise that spending is stimulative, nor with the fact that our economy is in the tank.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Yes

The Iraq War was a huge stimulus package that did very little to benefit the US economy because the money went to other countries.

 We spent a lot of money building Iraq. We paid for their banks, their courts, their police force, their military. WE paid refugees. WE paid an Iraqi family if a member was killed. We paid al-Maliki's salary. I believe they used Pakistani, and Chinese laborers for the US Embassy. So it should be obvious why the Iraq War was government spending that essentially not recirculate into the US economy. 

 Our economy is in the tank because of unethical investors.

………… parent

Ok, progress!

Although you still cling to the notion of "all government spending = stimulus" you are now qualifying that by saying the results can be "stimulus flavor A" or "stimulus flavor B"  depending on where the money is spent. 

So, basically, different kinds of spending have different results.   Yes?   In your current definition, where makes a difference.  

Isn't also possible that on what can make a difference too?

 

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

Yes PF

 It can make a difference where. But as the 'liberal' Pearlstein noted that any spending is stimulus.

My goal of course would be to focus on spending that has an eye on the future. The broad band highway, education, research for alternative energy, etc.

 But those have all somehow been painted  as 'the far left liberal democratic agenda of Nancy Pelosi'.

 Further the rationale for the continued off budget spending on the Iraq War was the mantra, Support the Troops.

 Can't we apply the same rationale to the American people. Support the American  people. It seems that some see that as too much moral equivalence.

  Spending will circulate money into the overall economy to stabalize it. More targeted spending could grow the economy but it will likely take several years.

………… parent

Look at your choice of words

Resent

Furious

I will have to pinch pennies

Blame

All of which are emotional words.   You are responding to this economic situation emotionally.   Thus my use of the term "romantic" -- an emotionally based response.

It is entirely understandable, and I am not judging/blaming/emoting anything here.  You can respond to this crisis however you like.   But be honest: you ARE responding emotionally to something that is not affecting you personally right this very second.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

Nevermind

 I am too angry 'read romantic'  right now to respond.

 I completely disagree with your analysis of to spend or not to spend govt money to prime the pump.

I especially disagree with your crystal ball analysis as to how this economy is affecting me and my family personally right this second. You have no idea and it's a bit arrogant of you to suggest that you do.

 

Let's just leave it at that.

………… parent

Reasonable people can disagree

without it being emotional.  Notice that nowhere in this thread have I attacked you or demeaned you personally.  If you read any of that in that way, I apologize; 'twas't my intent.

I'm sorry if you don't like the label "emotional."   I'd probably object to "cold hearted b*tch."   Because of course the real truth lies somewhere other than at the extremes.  

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

Fair enough

 I appreciate that 'sentiment'.

 I have no problem with the label emotional whatsoever. It represents passion which is the spark of creativity. Seeing as how we need innovators to come up with creative ideas to solve problems, and level headed folks to look at situations with a 'cold heart' so we can see what the problem is, I'd say there is room for both of us.

 

………… parent

Then answer the core assertion of PF's post...

...as John has nudged you to do...

...if you can, which is unlikely!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

"Any money the government

"Any money the government spends is stimulus" So very wrong, but it seems so common-sensical to you, doesn't it? And it has the added appeal of being emotionally satisfying. I don't know how to get past that with you, nor anyone else here who is caught up in the romantic idea that this $trillion is going to save jobs and minimize upheaval and has to be passed right-this-second or the world will end. That we're going to be able to have our cake and eat it too. Better writers than I have tried.
n/a
………… parent

Sorry Brutus

I tried to fix your post and I f'd it up.

This program makes no sense sometimes.

………… parent

It was something about the US

It was something about the US making money literally disappear in Iraq. And that a lot of long drawn out wars make for an economic downturn.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

I know.

The problem was that your comment was put into the quote box. When I went to edit it, the part you wrote was even there. Sorry.

………… parent

Not a good example for you PF

Iraq was a case of us dumping money overseas and into the coffers of large international corporations (who then hide that money in offshore assets, or at least a significant portion of it, rather than recycling it back into the economy as a whole). 

That said i agree with you that not all spending is stimulus.  It depends on the economic potential of where you dump the dollars as opposed to the economic damage done by taxes or debts to get the dollars.  For example:

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

As a specific retort

It was fine in that context ;-)  I was merely illustrating, as you have pointed out, that saying "all spending is stimulus" is balderdash, because obviously it is not and the Iraq war spending is a good example of that.

 

 

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

The Iraq War was

not sold as an economic stimulus package to improve the economy of the US, which is what was being discussed.  

 

 

 

………… parent

(Hint #1: Umm ML... It's big government spending...) ;-/

...regardless of what it is advertised as...? Spending is stimulus, right? (Hint #2: No, it's not.)

You don't even recognize your own argument when it is laid at your feet?

Geeze... lol!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I wonder what propenents of

I wonder what propenents of this outdated report consider when looking at these multipliers.  I can understand how tax changes can directly correlate to GDP changes.  But no one really questions the Increase Spending category.  For instance, the supposed goal of the Democratic party as lead by President Obama is to increase the wealth of the lower/middle class.  But no one seems to talk about the flaw in the above chart in that if the Democratic Party truly does want to help the poor rather than talk about helping the poor to get elected then the multipliers given above are short lived or are part of some sliding metric of poverty.

Not that is seems completely bogus or anything...

………… parent

But the Dem's used the CBO as the gold standard...

...and they predict a loss in GDP.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

That's not a refutation

of anything I said here.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Ok, why do you support a supposed stimulus bill...

...that the CBO says is a loser in GDP and a drag on the economy?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

It gets us through the rough patch.

So the CBO says that in the long-term there will be a net reduction in GDP .

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net.

But the report also shows the short term results:

The agency projected the Senate bill would produce between 1.4 percent and 4.1 percent higher growth in 2009 than if there was no action. For 2010, the plan would boost growth by 1.2 percent to 3.6 percent.

So at a fairly minor long-term cost, we have a decent short-term gain. Seems like a pretty good trade-off, considering the apparent seriousness of the short-term situation . And that long term cost can hopefully be mitigated by proper financial stewardship in the future. Assuming we do enter into another boom phase, we can start cutting down the national debt. Which, I might add, is what should have happened during Bush's presiding over the "unprecedented economic growth" of the past eight years.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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You have got to be kidding me SL?

So at a fairly minor long-term cost, we have a decent short-term gain. Seems like a pretty good trade-off, considering the apparent seriousness of the short-term situation. And that long term cost can hopefully be mitigated by proper financial stewardship in the future. Assuming we do enter into another boom phase, we can start cutting down the national debt. Which, I might add, is what should have happened during Bush's presiding over the "unprecedented economic growth" of the past eight years.

Minor long term cost? - What bill are you reading?

Proper financial stewardship in the future? - As opposed to what we are passing now you mean?

Start cutting down the national debt? - Our grandkids will be working on that one SL.

Unprecedented economic prosperity of the past eight years? - Try 25 years.

Imagine if we had a bill that really addressed stimulus!

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Minor long term cost? - What

Minor long term cost? - What bill are you reading?

I'm reading the CBO report, which claims a net loss of 0.1 to 0.3% GDP.

Proper financial stewardship in the future? - As opposed to what we are passing now you mean?

Certainly as opposed to what went on for the past eight years.

Start cutting down the national debt? - Our grandkids will be working on that one SL.

Yes, they probably will, whether this stimulus happens or not.

Unprecedented economic prosperity of the past eight years? - Try 25 years.

True. Too bad only the Clinton administration (and Republican Congress - props where it's due) did the intelligent thing of paying down the deficit during the boom years.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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POV...

Everyone agrees that some kind of fiscal stimulus might help the economy, and that running budget deficits is appropriate in a recession. The stage was thus set for the popular President to forge a bipartisan consensus that combined ideas from both parties. A major cut in the corporate tax favored by Republicans could have been added to Democratic public works spending for a quick political triumph that might have done at least some economic good.

Instead, Mr. Obama chose to let House Democrats write the bill, and they did what comes naturally: They cleaned out their intellectual cupboards and wrote a bill that is 90% social policy, and 10% economic policy. (See here for a case study .) It is designed to support incomes with transfer payments, rather than grow incomes through job creation.

 

SL: I'm reading the CBO report, which claims a net loss of 0.1 to 0.3% GDP.

Really...an additional trillion dollars of debt plus interest...think about it. Lets look at what the CBO says;

President Obama’s economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

So there it is: Mr. Obama is now endorsing a sort of reductionist Keynesianism that argues that any government spending is an economic stimulus. This is so manifestly false that we doubt Mr. Obama really believes it. He has to know that it matters what the government spends the money on, as well as how it is financed. A dollar doled out in jobless benefits may well be spent by the worker who receives it. That $1 of spending will count as economic activity and add to GDP.

But that same dollar can’t be conjured out of thin air. The government has to take that dollar away from someone else — either in higher taxes, or by issuing new debt in the form of a bond. The person who is taxed or buys the bond will have $1 less to spend. If the beneficiary of that $1 spends it on something less productive than the taxed American or the lender would have, then the net impact on growth will be negative.

______________________________________________________

SL: Certainly as opposed to what went on for the past eight years.

Agreed lets not, but given this stinker do you think the folks that gave us stimu-losus, will have an apifiny?

Like it or . . not , In related news, we are expanding the welfare state to the tune of $1.34 trillion over a ten year period. Oh, and you have to love the precision associated with the whole exercise. As Lando Calrissian would put it, “This deal is getting worse all the time.”

_______________________________________________________

SL: Yes, they probably will, whether this stimulus happens or not.

Don't you get that the expansion of federal government never retracts...we will own this overhead forever...and then some...

_______________________________________________________

SL: True. Too bad only the Clinton administration (and Republican Congress - props where it's due) did the intelligent thing of paying down the deficit during the boom years.

LOL, I suppose Clinton's probably taking credit for the Contract with America too now days huh? Geeze...?

The WSJ sums it up: The tragedy of the Obama stimulus is that we are getting so little for all that money.

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Why do you assume I support it?

I've said repeatedly I'm ambivalent about the matter.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Of course you are.  That way

Of course you are.  That way you won't be intellectually accountable for it's outcome, good or bad.  It's equally as silly as being abivalent about genocide in Africa.

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I can see why you don't like analogies.

Because that one is terrible. Equating the necessity to be concerned about current, ongoing human death to that of potential future financial suffering? That is what is silly.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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No.  It's not.  You place

No.  It's not.  You place your own judgement on the value of a "bad" act on an unwiling recipient.  I do not.  The phrase," I'd rather be dead" didn't arise out of humor and isn't always said in jest.  The inability of our major political parties and their loyal, unthinking followers has garaunteed the continuation of moral marginalization.  But I can see we are breeching a whole new topic.  Suffice it to say your view is a matter of perspective, mine of principle.

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No, there is a clear difference.

The genocide is happening NOW. There is no debate about whether or not people are dying. But there is most certainly a debate about whether this stimulus package will help or harm. It is completely reasonable to not have an opinion on that. In fact, it is probably the only truly rational position to have, since given our current knowledge of economics, there is probably no way to even know one way or the other. It has nothing really to do with the value of "badness" being perpetrated, but with the assumption you are making that the stimulus is a guaranteed bad thing. There is no assumption required in the case of genocide.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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tehnically

ambivalent means you have conflicting opinions, rather than no opinion.  On the one hand I do believe we could really use a stimulus bill, on the other hand I believe this bill is far from a god bill and hence I'm not sure if it will do more good than harm. 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I still don't see how you can

I still don't see how you can not take a position.

1)  good bill, will do good, support it
2)  okay bill, if it's okay it will mostly do good or it wouldn't be "okay", support it.
3) bad bill, will do bad, don't support it

If you admit it's far from a good bill, then how can you say it will do good?  Or how can you say you don't have any opinion on what it will do?

I guess I'm just baffeled by your inability to make a decision about it.  I've never had that problem.

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I'm not sure why this is hard to see

consider the following argument:

1) the economy is bad and if nothing is done will very likely get worse

2) the proposed stimulus bill contains some stimulus and a lot of baggage.

3) It isn't clear whether the benefit of the stimulus will be more than any harm from the baggage.

4) If this stimulus bill, in some form negotiated between house and senate, isn't passed there's no reason to believe ANY stimulus will be passed.

Civen that perception of the situation I am left with no strong feeling about the matter.  It just isn't clear to me where the best interest of the country lies.

To put it another way i think you left out an option between your 2 and 3.  Specifically you have the option of an unclear bill where you aren't sure if it is bad or okay (even if you know it isn't good).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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No wonder you are a Barry Sotero supporter...

...you have "absent button" envy!

LOL!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Wether or not you feel the

Wether or not you feel the stimulus will have a bad or good result is precisely what will lead to a conclusion that the stimulus will have good or bad impacts on people's lives.  As indicated by, and in support of my position, the increase in number of suicides known directly to be the result of financial fears  This is in direct support of my statement that the value of one's own life can only truly be understood by that individual and any value placed by anyone else and acted upon is to violate that person's liberty.  To know that a thing will have a consequence, be it allowing a family to pursue it's own interests or to drive one or any number of them to end their lives or the lives of others, and to be ambivalent (i.e. in this case I take it to mean indifferent, an accepted synonym, since Tlaloc has not expressed any "positive" or "negative" aspects to the bill which would lead one to understand Tlaloc's use of ambivalent to mean undecided.) is equally as morally wrong as having a way to end a genocide and to do nothing out of "ambivalence".

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You're serious?

To know that a thing will have a consequence, be it [good or bad]... and to be ambivalent is equally as morally wrong as having a way to end a genocide and to do nothing out of "ambivalence".

You honestly believe that the mere potential to do harm, despite the concurrent presence of the potential to do good, is as morally compelling as a known harm? I guess I can't argue with you if that is what you believe, but I don't think it is a belief that you should hold others to by any means.

Edit: If I have misinterpreted what you are saying, I apologize. But this is what it sounds like you are saying to me.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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No.  I left out a qualifier. 

No.  I left out a qualifier.  I also assumed that proponents of the stimulus bill were aware of the fact that the previous two well known cases (our own Great Depression as well as Japan's "Lost Decade") were evidence of the failure of massive, targeted, defecit spending.  That was why I used the word known rather than potential.  If you do not agree that the previous two attempts failed, then you would understand it as a potential to do harm and not certain.  No one could rightly get in their car every day if the potential to kill others with the car was enough to stop them.  You are right in that.

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Speaking only for myself

I'm aware of the claim that the new deal did nothing to stop the great depression but I regard it as revisionist history.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Typical anarchist lead in...

I'll bite..

...Really?

Why Tlaloc...the irrefutable proof is available to you?

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Becaue the argument

exclusively seems to come from those with a vested interest in it being true.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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The same can be said in

The same can be said in reverse.  Why do you not hold the same level of skeptecism equally among all?

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SL, it is not reasonable to suggest...

...this stimulus is a good piece of legislation, it is not even reasonable to proclaim it a decent piece of legislation.

It is a gargantuan boondoggle of wasteful spending and mechanisms to facilitate the federal governments expansion.

There are no doubters about those facts, no democrats are coming out in support of this bill, they are hiding in there respective caves and taking cover until they will quietly vote in favor like good little sheep, and do their best to forget about it.

Have you heard from a single legitimate economist that is in favor of this package who is not a liberal shill? No, you haven't, because there are none.

To justify, or attempt to justify this hunk of feces is nothing more than an act of partisan duplicity. If we were all to be honest, we would all acknowledge that this bill is flawed in the forementioned ways, but you would argue why you want it in spite of those things, because of those things, but not that those things are not true.

I mean if you want to drop the act and be real. ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Yeah, OK

You are the one who earlier brought up the CBO report showing a quite significant boost to GDP in the next couple of years as a result of this stimulus. Why are you using liberal shills to support your argument, then?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Oh brother...

Because that same effect would be accomplished, perhaps a great deal more with far less.

Analogy;

We need to fix our car, the carburetor is not getting gas to the engine, so we could fix that problem by spending sensibly on a new carburetor, maybe it would be prudent to do some other collateral things while we have the carb off too, ok, and our goal is achieved.

It costs $500 bucks.

This bill is suggesting we relace the motor, get the car painted, fix the driveway, put a roof on the house, by some new furniture, put in a pool, buy everyone in the hood a new fridge....

Hey that's all good, and we'll see the carb problem solved too...

...but...we spent $50K instead of $500!.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Pure conjecture

The thing is, no one has any idea whether or not it is the carburetor that is the problem.

And if I take your analogy numbers at face value, you seem to be saying that this economic crisis could be "fixed" by spending $8 billion? I think every economist on the face of the planet would laugh you out of the room for even suggesting that!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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IT'S AN ANALOGY....

NOT AN ECONOMIC MODEL!

Did you glean anything else other than the faulty math?

Dude - That is flat out disingenuous! If that's the way you are going to operate, ML would be a good study buddy.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That's why I hate analogies. 

That's why I hate analogies.  It allows one to concentrate on and pick apart the dynamics of the analogy itself rather than the actual topic at hand.

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Me either, but I thought it was so easy...

...even a liberal could get it.

I was wrong.

I join the club.. ;-)

No more analogies for me...

...and theirs are always so lame anyway, we're not missing much. LOL!

(not that my last effort was a work of genus...)

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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My first sentence

...was my response to the content of your analogy. No one knows it's the carburetor. Your faulty math was more than just faulty math, since your analogy included a description of the excess spending that was ridiculously hyperbolic.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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You just lost points with me man....

Your preferential scrutiny is in complete abstention of the hallmark element of that post, it being we're spending too much money, for no relevant reason, on things that don't apply.

You called my post conjecture, considering you couldn't even extract the premise of it's context, I suggest you get a dictionary.

You're cherry picking your liberal paroxysm's, playing off some gorilla warfare sort of reasoning.

Not working.

Either deal with it, or don't, but don't pick a word here and a error in grammar there and use that as some paradigm for equivocation.

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I'll live.

I assume you will agree that your characterization of the issue through your analogy was ridiculously hyperbolic. I responded with what I felt it deserved.

The conjecture in your post was that you assumed that the problem and the solution is a known entity. It simply is not. So it is not at all cut and dried what spending programs might be helpful, and what might not be.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Actually it was under-hyperbolic...

...in that it is estimated perhaps 90% of the stimulus is a waste.

This captures the essence of the bill. 90% social policy and 10% economic policy is exactly the scenario, along with payoffs to Leftist supporters such as the entertainment industry. As we pull the covers back on the bill, we find (as expected in a spending bill of this magnitude) numerous egregious examples of spending that will result in little or no economic benefit. This bill makes the “Bridge to Nowhere” look like a masterpiece of civil engineering and governmental wisdom.

  • $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.
  • A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.
  • $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.
  • $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).
  • $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.
  • $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.
  • $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.
  • $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD’s.
  • $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.
  • $125 million for the Washington sewer system.
  • $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.
  • $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.
  • $75 million for “smoking cessation activities.”
  • $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.
  • $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.
  • $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.
  • $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.
  • $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.
  • $6 billion to turn federal buildings into “green” buildings.
  • $500 million for state and local fire stations.
  • $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.
  • $1.2 billion for “youth activities,” including youth summer job programs.
  • $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.
  • $412 million for CDC buildings and property.
  • $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.
  • $160 million for “paid volunteers” at the Corporation for National and Community Service.
  • $5.5 million for “energy efficiency initiatives” at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.
  • $850 million for Amtrak.
  • $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.
  • $75 million to construct a “security training” facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.
  • $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.
  • $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Sounds great

 Let's get er passed. 

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More hyperbole

So a plan that is about 40% tax cuts is somehow 90% social policy and 10% economic policy, eh? What would the increased defense spending in your man Mitt's plan count as - social or economic policy? Not much point in continuing this discussion I guess. Good night.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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..it would be awesome to think he had a say...

..however, as you know, very few economists were consulted...Mitt, regardless of his expertise...wasn't consulted either...

Good night.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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We aren't at war

Besides the snarky observation that we've not declared war on anyone, we aren't at war because no one is making attacks on our soil.  And no, the odd jihadist trying to light his shoes on fire doesn't count.

To be "at war" with someone requires some semblence of symmetry.  If we really wanted to, we could wipe out insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan in short order.  Right now we're trying to get people to like us.  Getting shot at while trying to maintain the peace isn't war.  War is when you have a real possibility of being conquered yourself.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Hey Stiney...

..I tried to paste a quote and a reply was made, so I changed tack...forget it..or we can bring it up elsewhere...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Bah

We're in the blue!

I'm sure it'll come up again -- no worries.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Magilson

do I really strike you as someone unwilling to take a stand on an issue, or too shy to speak my mind?  Really?

If I say I'm ambivalent abot an issue it's probably because I'm actually ambivalent.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Two thoughts here

1) You yourself think that economics is an "infant science".  Do you have any evidence these numbers are true or close to being true?  If they are, then aren't you tacitly acknowleging that there is some truth to macroeconomics being a more developed science

2) The yellow-bars are in the same boat, but coming from the other direction.  Have any evidence that these numbers are incorrect?  Or what do the numbers on your worksheet look like?

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I have no idea if those numbers are accurate

It was meant as an example that there are different returns on investments.  In other words that list may be wrong btu there is a real list out there somewhere.  I was agreeing with PF that not all spending is automatically stimulus for the economy.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I was thrown too...

..I miss interpreted what you were saying.

Ah, I can see clearly now... (I luv that song)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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2) The yellow-bars are in

2) The yellow-bars are in the same boat, but coming from the other direction.  Have any evidence that these numbers are incorrect?  Or what do the numbers on your worksheet look like?

I've not met, talked with, or read an article written by a libertarian willing to come up with such list.  Libertarians are, as a rule, unwilling to engage in the kind of central planning that would dictate the necesity of such a list.

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A tract on the shortcomings of the yellow bar

for all you know it could be right.

That is one think about the die-hard free marketers I don't get.  They say that markets are way too complicated to be tinkered with, but explain them with very simple equations and line graphs.  Which is it?

Of course the equations and graphs are just models.  And models are just that -- they don't accurately describe the system, but are usually good enough approximation.  Fair enough.  However I've seen no evidence that one model is any better than the other, which is why I agree with Tlaloc that economics is more like alchemy than physics.  If economics was a mature field, we could solve some equations that would tell us if it was too much spending or a lack of spending that contributed to the Great Depression.  Today that's still an open question among respected economists.

And we're talking in generalizations here...nothing exact.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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As long as we're talking in

As long as we're talking in generalizations...

Let me put it this way:  Libertarians most often consider themselves libertarians not because they think that graphs made by libertarian economists are better.  They are libertarians because the argue the best way under which to govern is to first respect the liberty of the individual, with all other individuals equally considered, and then base an economic viewpoint therefrom.  That's pretty general, honestly, so please don't reach any hard conclusions without asking me to elaborate.  But what I hope to convey is not that I think those multipliers are wrong because they do not conform to my personal ideals but because they are meant to manipulate, not predict.  The austrian school of economics is not meant to manipulate spending, it's meant to understand the rationalization of the individual just enough to keep from manipulating it.  Libertarians don't say things like,"spend on schools because it will have a net effect of increasing the GDP by .087% within 8 years".  So to ask "us" why we reject those kinds of predictions when we make predictions ourselves is not comparing apples to apples.  We don't try to make the same predictions.  As I said, a "member" of the school of Austrian economics would say there will never be an equation to tell us if there is too much spending or too little on a large scale because central planning cannot work.  In that respect I think it defaults to "micro" every time rather than trying to develop some "macro" equation to describe all things perfectly.  This is why Austrians are always accused of being a historical economic theory.  They can never look forward.  Not so.  We just don't try to narrow the field of vision quite so much.

Maybe John can chime in.  He? (not being able to use pronouns based on western social norms is more difficult than I'd ever thought) usually has a better way of explaing this stuff than it seems I do.

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Stiney is a good guy...just FYI...

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I didn't mean to convey that I thought otherwise...

n/t

………… parent

No worries, he can speak for himself...

...I just hadn't seen you two interact, and wanted to just give a nod of sorts...

PS - Thanks for advocating where I am not able, for reasoning I otherwise rampart.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That's perfect

 it absolves you of any responsibility for the consequences of your actions, or accounting  for any kind of predictable outcome for your theories other than chaos.

  The human mind has an amazing capacity to rationalize almost anything. An economic theory based on rationalizing the id.

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On the contrary, it gives me

On the contrary, it gives me absolute accountability for the consequences of my actions.  And everyone else, theirs, in turn.

The austrian school of economics is not meant to manipulate spending, it's meant to understand the rationalization of the individual just enough to keep from manipulating it.

I'm not trying to rationalize how you spend the wealth you've generated.  That's what you are trying to do in your quest to end high-paid CEO's and the lot.

At least you could have posed the argument that, based on my description, Austrians don't try to predict anything and so their theories, which then wouldn't even be theories, were useless.  Which I would have responded to.

But instead you chose an ad hominem attack.  Interesting.  And annoying.

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Bizarre....

Isn't it odd that you don't consider it manipulation or rationalization of spending when it comes to a highly compensated CEO, but you do consider it manipulation or rationalization of spending if a laborer makes $18 an hour if he belongs to a union.

 Why would you care what other people are compensated when it has no effect on your ability to be productive what so ever, if you are accountable for only yourself. What others are compensated should have no effect your your liberty.

  

 

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Oh I can't wait for this...

Hey ML...Blacks being discriminated against do no affect his liberty either, right...LOL!

Because one is a libertarian it shouldn't matter if women can't vote, or gee, how about rape...as long as its not his wife...?

You must not be this unenlightened?

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Rationalization of the Individual

 What does that mean exactly? Understanding the rationalizations of the Individual?

  The definition of rationalization is to justify one's behavior with plausible or logical reasoning even if these justifications are not true or appropriate. Another definition is to lie. Another definition is to get rid of that which is not productive.

  If it's the first definition then you are trying not to manipulate the inappropriate justifications of the individual with spending?

 If it's the second are you saying that individuals who lie should not be manipulated with spending.

 If it's the third you are saying individuals who are most efficient and productive should not be  manipulated.

 It seems to me like this 'theory' encompasses so many contradictions it's mind boggling.  I can't wrap my head around all the rationalizations. Your theory seems to be as complicated as the US tax code.

You can have liberty if you exempt transfer payments to anyone for anything other than productivity and efficiencies, as long as no one interferes with the process. Except that you are using a structure for earnings, a civil society, ie: govt that was handed to you on a platter. It seems your philosophy wants to destroy that which has brought you wealth. It doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 

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Where do I even start with

Where do I even start with this garbage?

If it's the first definition then you are trying not to manipulate the inappropriate justifications of the individual with spending?
 

Who is to say it's innapropriate?  Your own definition:

to justify one's behavior with plausible or logical reasoning even if these justifications are not true or appropriate

It's obvious you've assumed that all cases of rationalization means that the justifications are not true or appropriate despite the qualifier I highlighted.  But if you're going to make rediculous statments like that how about I change my wording to say understand rather than rationalize.  Whatever it takes to get you to have a real discussion about something instead of making silly off-tangent attacks.

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You don't like your own words then

  1.  The austrian school of economics is not meant to manipulate spending, it's meant to understand the rationalization of the individual just enough to keep from manipulating it.

  2.   I was asking for clarfication of  what you wrote. 
  3.   I used the dictionary definition of the word rationalize. Your statement could have several different meanings. 
  4.  I gave a dictionary definition of the word rationalize to further understand your meaning.
  5. To justify one's behavior with plausible or logical reasoning even if these justifications are not true or appropriate; to lie; to get rid of that which is not productive.
  6.    The austrian school of economics is not meant to manipulate spending, it meant to understand the rationalizations (justifications, use of efficiencies, lies) to keep people from manipulating  it. (spending) 
  7.   Is there an austrian definition  of the word rationalization for clarification purposes.
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I believe my previous answer clarified this properly.

n/t

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Well of course

 as long as you believe your answer was properly clarified *snort*,  the rest of will just have to be satisfied with your bad self. 

Faith can be a powerful. If you believe it, that's what counts!

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You're being a touch obtuse, don't you think?

This is all just semantics. It's much to get the gist of it context and address it rather than belabor the different nuances of words.

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Just trying to be

 specific and precise. 

 What I read from those words, is not what I would call a blue print for a moral document.

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Have you ever considered...

...taking stock, and into account the feedback you receive from virtually everyone you interact with?

There is a common disposition one finds universally imparted...

...it would be so nice if you would figure that out.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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It would be nice....

if.......

 Just looking for clarification, which is always elusive when it comes to the complexity and elusiveness of some libertarian trains of thought, which seem at least as complex and convoluted as the CDO's, and the CDS's that investment bankers sold as the pot of gold and the end of the rainbow, but failed to deliver on the IOU.

 The intricacies and convoluted interconnectedness of austrian economic theory come across as set in stone and undefinable, operating from a set position that manages to be in motion, with an aspect of zero tolerance for deviation or negotiation. 

 You have to admit it's pretty confusing, and the welcome mat isn't at the front door with a pot of daisies waiting for ya shouting, 'Come on in'.  It's hidden behind the door with a sign that says only those who are worthy may enter.

 Which is fine. 

I think I get that the whole package is not open to any sort of compromise whatsoever, end of story. period. dot.

 

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Actually there is a lot of

Actually there is a lot of free reading material out there for you to read up on the theories of Austrian economics.  Libertarians have this funny idea about Intellectual Property being a really bad idea.  And so you can often find their material freely available on the internet a few short years after it was published.  I know for a fact that you've never bothered to read any of it and so I take the rest of what you said in this post as inflamatory and condecending but I won't stick around for a reversal or an apology.

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Fine...

The tidbits you have thrown down have dampened my curiosity, not piqued it.

 

 

 

 

 

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Check out...

The Mises Institute , is full of everything you could want or need, there are great articles, classics, and video to watch, then maybe reegister and frequent Cafe Hayek a little.

Here is a PDF that lays The Austrian School out.

And of course to broaden into liberty based thinking, which would be a good idea IMHO, try CATO .

Let us know if anything resonates.

Good luck... ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Convoluted?

What's so convoluted about it?

 

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Sorry

 I will have to get back to you on that. 

It makes sense but I can't explain it. It's complicated.

That's a typical answer.

 I can't imagination why asking for a clear definition of what rationalization means according to the austrian theory would be so difficult to explain to the impassioned believer.

 Or that the suggestion that a definition would need clarification should be met with disdain. Particularly when those who  do the asking are pummeled for being imprecise and unspecific.

 My impression is that rationalization is used to move the goal posts, to wherever they need to be to make every other theory look weak, while enshrining the austrian theory.

For those who feign to demand consistency, it comes across as inconsistent and convoluted.

That's just my impression.

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A layman's explanation

Let me take a stab at this, assuming you are honestly seeking an answer.   You would like to understand what this means:

The austrian school of economics is not meant to manipulate spending, it's meant to understand the rationalization of the individual just enough to keep from manipulating it.

People who think the Austrian theories are correct have certain underlying philosophies.   One of those philosophies is that it is a bad idea to interfere with your personal economic decisions on where to spend your money or how much to spend.  

An example of a personal economic decision is a mortgage:  Austrians think you should have all the facts and that you should choose the rate and terms that you think fit your financial situation best.   They do not think it is a good idea to use government regulation to interfere with that decision.  An example of interference would be a law that requires lenders to give larger morgages or "gotcha" adjustable mortgages to people who would otherwise not qualify for a regular mortgage.

Another example is normal spending.   If you want a new TV, you should make that decision to buy one on your own based on your personal income and debts.  Not because you got a tax stimulus check from Uncle George.   Austrians don't think it's a good idea to manipulate spending behavior.

By "rationalization" they mean that Austrian theories seek to understand why people make the economic choices they make, so that potential laws can be evaluated with regards to their impact on individual behavior, and so that the laws can be designed to interfere with those choices as little as possible. 

(My apologies to those who know much more than I about this; please remember this is not a thesis on Austrian theory.  It is an attempt to explain the quoted text so that missliberties can understand it.  So please be kind, if I've made any significant material misstatement. )

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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To distill that a bit further, PF

Austrians think you should have all the facts and that you should choose the rate and terms that you think fit your financial situation best.   They do not think it is a good idea to use government regulation to interfere with that decision.

Austrians say that human preferences about how much information is required in that transaction and human actions received by the lenders will create the choices of rates and terms. It doesn't need to be perfect.

One of the strangest yet important ideas to grasp is that entrepreneurship occurs where there are gaps in information between buyers and sellers and even between sellers themselves. Profit lies therein. The bigger the gaps, the higher the prices....generally speaking. The smaller, the lower.

The idea is that perfect information doesn't create a real market. It simply clears markets and perhaps even closes them.But since perfect information is nearly impossible in most cases, there's not much to worry about in that respect.

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So, again...

What's so convoluted about Austrian School?

I understand you find Magilson's use of "rationalization" convoluted but that's not the same thing.

What's so convoluted about Austrian School to you?

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John, she could have so easily gone to the links...

...we provided, or googe it and take a little time to get it...

...but it is painfully obvious, as with every topic, she would rather run around in circles with her hair on fire, getting attention making defamatory quips, and getting nowhere than have honest focused productive dialogue.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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sometimes reaching out to

sometimes reaching out to shake someone's hand is worth the effort even if it's slapped away.

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I agree...We've all been doing a lot reaching lately...

...but at what point do you call a spade a spade?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Well we've put up with you...

The human mind has an amazing capacity to rationalize almost anything.

What does it absolve him of...

what responsibility...

what actions...

what accounting....

what outcome....

You are a clown at this point...

To change that, don't threaten to leave, have the courage to grow!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Interesting

That was a decent insight.

I, being a math nerd by study (but not yet trade) believe there is always such an equation.  It may be very complex and hidden to us, but it can be found.

In economics, I think we have to deal more with statistics rather than pure math (since people don't behave according to strict equations), but I think we will have the ability one day to properly poke and prod at the economy as needed to create "favorable outcomes".  Of course "favorable" is in the eye of the beholder, as is most things.

Truly, and we're getting a bit off topic here, I do believe that most of our problems are due to human nature above all else.  Get rid of lying and other forms of deception almost everything wrong with the world disappears overnight.

I've said before that at heart I'm a communist.  In that I mean that one day we will be good enough to work for the good of all humanity rather than for our clan or country.  We are nowhere near ready for that right now, so we'll have to use those economic theories and systems that depend on our selfishness.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Libertarianism and Economic Modeling...

but I think we will have the ability one day to properly poke and prod at the economy as needed to create "favorable outcomes".  Of course "favorable" is in the eye of the beholder, as is most things.

 This is a field of economics known as Pareto,Hicks Welfare Economics which is concerned with achieving more favorable Pareto or Kaldor-Hicks efficient outcomes. However, these types of efficiency measurments, calculated to produce more "favorable outcomes" by improving the outcomes of the lesser well off are extremely flawed. For example, Pareto efficiency requires the following constraints: full equilibrium, perfect competition, perfect information, and negligible externalities. Otherwise, any distribution of outcomes will be "Pareto-Inefficient."

Contrary to your ideal that humans will perfect economic intervention in the future, I would argue that in the government instiutions in the future will be "less capable" of "efficient intervention." That's because I think neoclassical economics is but a crude linear approximation to an increasingly complex economic system. In complex systems, the type of "poking and prodding" as you describe it, creates externalities in the system, immediately invalidating any measure of "pareto-like efficiencies." 

You write of discovering the underlying equations governing microeconomic activity. It's sort of irrelevant, IMO. For example, we know the differential equations of fluid dynamics, but that doesn't really help in predicting weather beyond short term modeling. You can employ boundary condition models to predict average weather or climate over a given period, but those type of crude approximations go to wayside with, say, volcano eruptions or changes in solar activity.

 

Hayek reduced the problem of economics to a coordination problem. But there are really 2 types of coordination problems. One is the efficient allocation of scarce resources. This problem is best solved through the price system. But there is another  coordination problem,  Schelling coordination, which involves things like medium of exchanges, legal systems, regulations etc. that provide the framework for resource allocation coordination through the price system.

 

For the "libertarian engineers" out there, I describe the problem as:

Schelling coordination in Complex Economic Systems.

If we apply Public Choice to the State, and note that in complex systems,  Statist intervention results in pronounced network externalities, the question becomes is monopoly enforcement drivien by class interest the best mechanism to achieve Schelling Coordination. Sure, the State can serve as mechanism to achieve such coordination, but is monoply control of things like money supply, special interest influence over regulations and laws, etc the best way to achieve it. Everyone recognizes that Hayek Price coordination would function inefficiently under conditions of monopoly. I'm not sure why the same logic cannot be applied to argue against monopoly for achieving Schelling Coordination.

 

In any event, this an economic basis for propouding such things as market anarchism, especially as the complexity and non-linear behavior of the economic system continues to increase...

 

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

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How about Hayek and Mises for starters?

Never mind me. ;) Hayek's Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech is a great place to start. Personally, I find it astounding that he won a Nobel for his insight on on the implications of dispersed knowledge and the limitations it puts on man in the study of economics and what economics can do for us. Why is it astounding? Because, nothing has been uncovered, perfected, ascertained, or "MATHEMATIZED" before or since to refute or change the value of what got Hayek his prize. Talk about the ultimate 800lb gorilla-elephant hybrid in the room. Of course, there is always this quote from Mises from "Human Action" that I have posted repeatedly when this topic comes up. It never seems to make a difference or clarify the relationship between math, science and economics. But what the heck, one more time won't hurt, right? ;) Ignore away:

The deliberations which result in the formulation of an equation are necessarily of a nonmathematical character. The formulation of the equation is the consummation of our knowledge; it does not directly enlarge our knowledge. Yet, in mechanics the equation can render very important practical services. As there exist constant relations between various mechanical elements and as these relations can be ascertained by experiments, it becomes possible to use equations for the solution of definite technological problems. Our modern industrial civilization is mainly an accomplishment of this utilization of the differential equations of physics. No such constant relations exist, however, between economic elements. The equations formulated by mathematical economics remain a useless piece of mental gymnastics and would remain so even if they were to express much more than they really do.

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Don't trip...

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds".

 ...of which I am undoubtedly one... ;-)

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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The Nobel Prize for

The Nobel Prize for Economics, in my opinion, is not meant to award someone for mathematical verification (a.k.a. proof) so much as expanding the playing field of thought.  That being said, and in reference to a problem I have with Krugman that I enumerated elsewhere, Hayek never claimed to "know everything".  What I mean is that he never said he knew what was best for everyone.  Krugman stated that what he received the prize for could not really be proven beyond doubt but  does offer specific advice to governments about how they could best manipulate money to benefit their citizens, often, and for pay.

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Krugman is a partisan...period...

...unlike the Austrians, who only seek economic truth.

IMO, you would hope economists attain their economic credentials, and consequently aggregate their political value system...

However others, as I have found is the case with Paul Krugman, have as a result of their political conversion, developed an economic emanation...

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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The problem is

that the austrians have no more insight into the matter than Krugman.  Consequently their individual motivations don;t really matter.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I disagree...(I am not the right guy to articulate it either)

But...

Look at The Austrian School;

It holds that the complexity of subjective human choices makes mathematical modeling of the evolving market extremely difficult (or impossible) and therefore advocates a laissez faire approach to the economy. Austrian School economists advocate the enforcement of voluntary contractual agreements between economic agents, but otherwise the smallest imposition of coercive force(especially government-imposed) on commercial transactions.

Sounds constitutional, and supports the capitalist model, it allows the government to remain restrained, it is intrinsically  America, and boy it has worked incredibly well thus far.

In fact had government not tried to interfere in the housing markets, and over spent (Yes GW, and others) we would not be in this situation. So Government is in fact the problem.

So now look at Krugman's Keynesian Model;

It holds the state should stimulate economic growth and improve stability in the private sector — through, for example, adjusting interest rates and taxation and funding public projects.

Oopps... exactly the behavior that got us into this economic mess!

It is counter-constitutional, makes government bigger, puts it's hand in as a player in the private markets, encourages poor monetary and tax policy

It is the ideal model for liberals to use to justify their big government agenda, as we are seeing right now.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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If I'm not mistaken

And I may very well be, but it is my understanding that "Neoclassical Keynesian" economic theory was the dominant form of macroeconomics in the post-WW2 era - particularly the 50s and 60s. (During which time theeconomy did quite well.) It was not until the 70s that "Monetarism" (championed by Milton Friedman) began to dominate, leading to an emphasis on interest rate adjustment as the primary tool to effect the economy.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I have an answer to this, but perhaps Magilson will...

...give it a go.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Well, to start...

...I would reject the corelation betweek Neoclassical Keynesian economic theory and the boom of post WWII America simply because there are far simpler and more obvious reasons we did so well.  We helped to destroy the majority of the rest of the industrialized world.  We also managed to secure our currency as the benchmark.  Both of these factors lead to our boom, not anything Keynes had anything to do with.

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I was just going to say...

It would have been hard to screw it up, you could have had a chimpanzee running the fortune 500 companies and they would have made profits.

The labor demands of the war industries caused millions of Americans to move to the Atlantic, Pacific, and Gulf coasts where most defense plants were located. When World War II ended, the we were in better economic condition than any other country in the world.

Building on that economic base from the war, American's became more affluent than most could have imagined in their wildest dreams before the war.

Veterans returned, and purchased homes, and began having children in previously unheard of numbers.

The country was ripe for economic good times...

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Correlation is not causation

Looking at it that way is too simplistic. You gloss over a lot of other factors that varied greatly between different stretches of time. Besides, the record is far more convoluted that your cursory observation would lead one to believe.

Also, Monetarism and Keynesianism are not exactly opposites. They address different things and inlfuence a variety of policies. IOW< they are not mutually exclusive.

Besides, Austrians would and do argue that that both have a faulty similarity in their foundations that the Austrians claim compromises their analytical worth. Too complicated for me to explain.

If I find a link that explains this, I'll add it to the post.

Update:

link:

http://mises.org/story/1099

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Response to all three of you.

I don't disagree with any of this. My main point was that blaming Keynesian economic theory for the current crisis, as RW seemed to be doing, isn't really appropriate.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Fair enough.

That said, "Keynesian" can mean different things to different people in different contexts.

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How can you agree with all this, yet disagree?

Strange?

Anyway, I simply roughed out the two economic schools of thought, and then drew the correlation between the Keynesian ideas and the current situation.

You, however sheepishly, made the claim keynesian economics were to credit for the prosperity in the postwar era?

And now, you claim all you were doing was just trying to say you were refuting my assertion?

Anyway?

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I agree with what I agree with, and disagree with what I don't!

I agree with all the correlation not causality arguments, and that there were plenty of other factors that led to the prosperity of the 50s and 60s. I never made the claim of causality - I even only brought up the correlation as a parenthetical statement, since it was not key to the point I was tryng to make.

I even agree that the poor interest rate adjustment policy of the past several years is likely a big part of the cause of the current crisis. I don't think it is the sole cause, and I don't think that the policy was particularly Keynesian, either. Hence my objection to your attempt to blame the current crisis on Keynesian theory. (Your statement actually explicitly states a causation, by the way. You did not simply draw a correlation: exactly the behavior that got us into this economic mess!)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I would agree with you that

I would agree with you that Keynesian policies are not entirely to blame for this crisis.  But I can assure you they are not the fix.  Of course, even I would admit that Keynes would be a bit annoyed if one were to call this stimulus "Keynesian" specifically, but ostensively it fits the bill.

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Actually, SL

Interest rate manipulation for the purpose of spurring consumption is, in fact, a Keynesian policy prescription.

Keynesians, for the purpose of increasing growth...which exclusively means increasing demand and hence spending..., have two basic things in their tool box:

Monetary Tool: lower rates to get people to spend and increase demand

Fiscal Tool: Spend money to get people to spend and increase demand

Whether what Greenspan did in the early 2000s can be called "Keynesian" is a matter I don't have a clear answer for.

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This is fun, I'm glad we have been having these talks...

So Friedman's big claim was that the extent of the depression was a result of the fed not putting more dough in the economy, right?

What can either of you tell us about that and how today's economic woes relate to those of 1930.

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I find the whole Monetarism-Keynesianism thing

to be a little tough to deal with.

Part of the problem is the disappointment in reading inflammatory articles from one group about the other when they seem sort of similar in certain assumptions.

On some levels, Monetarism and Keynesianism seem sort of similar when it comes to monetary policy...a kind of ying and yang of the same basic framework.

On other levels, the same seems to hold true about Monetarism and Austrian School.

Friedman, on the depression, is simply looking at the same problem the Austrians are but from a different perspective. The Austrians dwell on what led to the conditions that caused the boom. Friedman dwells on what let the boom end.

So, they seem similar in that both correctly look at money supply as the problem at the heart of all this. But they value the entire process from opposite directions and draw different conclusions.

That's actually a big difference with a lot of implications even though it seems subtle.

Monetarism and Keynesian Monetary policy actually seem very similar to me in many ways. Both use macro as a foundation, which is totally different from the Austrians.  But they seem different as well. I personally can't explain it. Moentarism confuses the hell out of me.

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You lost me, Stiney

They say that markets are way too complicated to be tinkered with, but explain them with very simple equations and line graphs.  Which is it?

OK, I missed something. Where do you get that idea?

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You actually

I distinctly recall a quote from Hayek that said something to the effect of "if you don't know exactly what you're doing, don't do it".

If the equations they use in Econ 101 are correct, then shouldn't getting us out of a recession be dead easy?

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Whoah, there.

First of all, that wasn't a quote. It was my own way of grossly reducing one Hayekian insight down to a sentence.

Secondly, your question is ironic and  isn't really that valid. It's not a matter of equations in finding complex solutions to complex problems. It's hard to explain.

But either way, your interpretation of that paraphrase isn't quite right. It's misapplied.

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I couldn't find the quote at

I couldn't find the quote at the Quotable Mises , but I did find this reference to it.  The problem with that viewpoint is in convincing people they really don't know what's best for everyone else.

As a side note, I find the Keynesian "bathtub" model a bit silly even though I suppose it is sufficient for Econ101.  But if that were all it took, using the principles of an entry level class, then Einstein et. al. would have been proven fools.  Also, most Econ101 classes I know of try much harder to stick to micro-economics (supply and demand curves) for reasons I think everyone here agrees are good and spend only a small portion of the time trying to cover macro (mainly Keynesian principles, unfortunately).

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Said the straw-woman to the tinman.. Yikes?

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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A Reasonable Republican

 Isn't that an oxymoron these days? 

 That's how Bonnie Newman, Judd Gregg's replacement in New Hampshire describes herself.

She was the chair of the group "Republicans for John Lynch", the current Democratic Governor of New Hampshire.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Now+that+she%27s+a+sena...

So, politically, the 63-year-old Newman is nearly a blank slate. She offered only a glimpse into her overall philosophy Tuesday, saying, "I would probably describe myself as a reasonable Republican. Some of you might call me a moderate Republican, and that would be true."

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The Senate agrees on a Stimulus bill.

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi

"President Barack Obama's economic recovery plan is on track to pass the Senate after a handful of moderate Republicans and Democrats forced more than $100 billion in cuts"

Now honestly there's compromises that were made that I don't like.  I suspect there's a whole bunch of things the right doesn't like either.  It's sad when that becomes the hallmark of a "successful" bill.

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It is nearly always the hallmark of a "successful" bill.

That's politics. That's the process so many are enamored with.

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So, if we don't pass "this" ...we face an economic apocolypse?

HT to bs

The President this week stated that there would be a “catastrophe ” if the so-called “stimulus” bill isn’t passed immediately. But the only “catastrophe” I see coming is the bill itself. Yesterday the WSJ referred to “The Stimulus Tragedy ,” and it seems an apt descriptor for what we’re seeing emerge from Capitol Hill.

From the WSJ:

…Mr. Obama chose to let House Democrats write the bill, and they did what comes naturally: They cleaned out their intellectual cupboards and wrote a bill that is 90% social policy, and 10% economic policy. … It is designed to support incomes with transfer payments, rather than grow incomes through job creation.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That's right

 It will be a tragedy. Even worse all this pleasing of anti-government Republicans has watered the bill down enough that it won't be as effective as it should be.

 Taking out aid to education and to sorely underfunded states is a fools game, but that is what your side is playing and they know it. Purely for partisan positioning. Sickening.

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Astonishingly deficient in every respect...

...genuinely vacant of even the slightest perfunctory economic acumen...

Just more of the same old pathetic claptrap, disappointing.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Of course, one could aim economics at many of your positions

and find them wanting as well.

Let's start with your economically illiterate immigration views, as characterized here www.swordscrossed.org/node/2340 . You are against the free flow of labor. Attempting to enforce your views of "border security" and labor immigration is not only economically inefficient, but would necessarily impose a high degree of Statism to boot. Strike One.

Previously, you have expressed support for "stimulas," specifically advocating Mitt Romney's plan here www.swordscrossed.org/diary/20090115/common-sense-stimulus . While Romney cautions against "big government," he nevertheless clearly expresses the position that deflation is to be avoided at all costs, even at the expense of renewed inflation. Isn't that more or less the position taken by the likes of Krugman, that we are in a deflationary liquidity trap and hence the need for massive spending and credible monetary policy of inflation? My bet is that if Romney were president, he would be seeking the Romney trillion dollar stimulus plan. That's strike two against you.

Oh, and btw, Romney, the author of MittCare, the mandatory Mass. Health Care legislation that hunts you down and fines you for going without health insurance, is a particularly egregious case of deplorable Statism. Apparently, in your mind, you see no irony in putting forth a putrid Statist as a counter-example to the "marxist statism" you see lurking within the Dems. 

While you rail against bailouts for the likes of GM, you apparently have no problem with annual bailouts of Northrop, Boeing, GE, etc. Yeah, that's right, our annual military budget is one big bailout for defense contractors, not to mention that the department of defense is one of the largest, if not the largest, source of paternalistic,  federal employment. It's a bit disingenous to argue against paternalistic government while simultaneously arguing that the largest segment of such paternalistic employment is necessary for our existential survival. In actuality, this is one of the better arguments that "progressives" can wield against "conservatives." If the military, a thoroughly socialistic institution, represents the "best' of America, then why not organize all of America along such lines? Strike Three...

Indeed, a fundamental weakness of  the likes of you "red_wing conservatives" is the extent you glorify "public goods institutions" like law enforcement and the military, goods that supposedly can't be provided by the free market, as some sort of litmus test for being a "patriot.." ...lol...

Red-Wing invokes Milton Friedman here www.swordscrossed.org/diary/20081013/who-does-obama-think-he  to warn against the spectre of Obama. Of course, the "unitary executive," as an explicit legal theory, originates largely with Nixon, and explicitly codified as legal theory with Bush/Cheney. Friedman, of course, called Nixon a horrible president for exactly such reasons. But it was Bush/Cheney,  asisted legally legally by the likes of John Yoo and David Addington, who explicitly codified that in times of "crisis," that the president cannot be constrained by the rule of law. The "War on Terror" is a permanent war, so it implicitly legitimizes a permanent executive branch role of dictatorial powers. Bush held a press conference explicitly warning that soup lines would be the result of failure to pass the Paulson Plan. Paulson himself warned congress that martial law would result if his bailout plan was not passed. That's a fact. You're ominous warnings about Obama are a denouement.

In fact, quit quoting Milton Friedman in your signature, as if he were a supporter of "red wing republicanism."  And, I would point out that Milton's son, David, and grandson, Patri, are much more consistent in taking libertarianism to it's logical economic conclusion, that of anarchism.

The bottom line, your views don't stand up to libertarian economic scrutiny either. Far from it...just to point such out.

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

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Now this is rich

I haven't been reading much RS recently.  I did pop over and read this though and about fell out of my chair:

Recently, we wondered aloud how anyone could expect a Secretary of Labor that has had a long history of being a member of various Big Labor groups can be expected to administer an agency that is supposed to deal equally and evenly with both labor and business? How could we not expect Obama’s choice for Sec. of Labor, Hilda Solis, to be a shill for Big Labor since she has been one her whole adult life? And not just a shill for Big Labor, but an actual employee of Big Labor.

http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/02/07/ethics-of-obamas-n...

Right, now of course these same people thought it was perfectly fine when bush packed regulatory boards with industry insiders, because of course you can totally rely on former Mining executives to scrutinize their company's safety (to give one of dozens of examples).

I'm not sure hypocrisy of this density can even be measured by modern science.

 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Not hypocrisy, it's a conservative's perogative.

well, that and IOKIYAAR.

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Slum Dogs Unite!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/opinion/08rich.html?_r=1

 An editorial that touches on the frustration with our current government.

 Let's hope that Obama who has vowed to change the culture in Washington isn't eaten alive by those very same insiders who have become so numbed by their lifestyle that they see it as entitlement and The tax cuts that some are proposing to help restart the economy are nothing more than a gift to themselves and their corporate task masters and have nothing to do with helping every day Americans.

 

  Like nearly everyone else in Washington, Obama was blindsided by the savagery and speed of Daschle’s demise. Conventional wisdom had him surviving the storm. Such is the city’s culture that not a single Republican or Democratic senator called for his withdrawal  until the morning of his exit. Membership in the exclusive Senate club, after all, has its privileges. Among Daschle’s more vocal defenders was Bob Dole , who had recruited  him to Alston & Bird, the law and lobbying firm where Dole has served as “special counsel ” when not otherwise cashing in on his own Senate years by serving as a pitchman for Pepsi and Viagra .

Americans have had enough of such arrogance, whether in the public or private sectors, whether Democrat or Republican. Voters turned on Sarah Palin not just because of her manifest unfitness for office but because her claims of being a regular hockey mom werecontradicted by her Evita shopping sprees . John McCain’s sanctification of Joe the Plumber (himself a tax delinquent ) never could be squared with his inability to remember how many houses he owned . A graphic act of entitlement also stripped naked that faux populist John Edwards .

The neo-Hoover Republicans in Congress, who think government can put Americans back to work with corporate tax cuts but without any “spending,” are tone deaf to this rage.

Obama is not.

It’s a good thing he’s getting out of Washington  this week to barnstorm the country about the crisis at hand. Once back home, he’s got to make certain that the insiders in his own White House know who’s the boss.

 

 

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endangered species protection : unconstitutional?

In general, I like the idea of protecting endangered species (though I might quibble with the actual structure of the endangered species act). However,  I'm guessing that I would not be able to find justification in the Constitution of the USA for Congress having the power prohibit hunting or habitat destruction (outside of Federal lands).

Still, I don't see any Constitutional problem with the government spending money to buy up the habitat of endangered species, or to pay individual landowners (or local governments) for doing things that would protect the endangered species.

Come to think of it, I would prefer that the government enact policies like this by way of spending, rather that enacting regulations or prohibitions....so maybe I have no Constitutional objection to the policy that I would actually prefer.

 

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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At least...

...It would benefit all citizens equally.

It is in the best interest of the nation as a whole.

In that regard I see it as in the "Common welfare" of our nation to preserve it's national ecology, and wildlife.

A bit of a stretch, but one I think fits considering.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Then in theory

If taking your money or property and giving it to me benefitted all citizens equally, then it would fall under "common welfare", no?

That's the problem with reading that clause in that way.  I can make the case that food stamps benefits us all; therefore, it is constiutional.  In fact, I can make the case that any government program benefits us all; therefore any government program is constitutional.

The astute reader will notice that I dropped the word "equally" from the phrase "benefits us all equally".  No government program benefits us all equally, not even the military.  Being from a small town, I can safely say that the military benefits people from large cities and other targets of strategic value more than it does the people from my home town.

You also made the case that endangered species protection is in the best interest of the nation as a whole.  That's actually a very good defense of any collectivist program of which you can think.  I didn't know you were such a bleeding heart, RW! :-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Not exactly...

You are mincing words and taking context out of the equation, I do not have time to write actual legislation...lol...so I am roughing out what is a general understanding of it.

Food Stamps benefit only those that "qualify, it is not "common" at all.

The military does protect us all, it is a frivolous exercise in arguing that point.

I am an ardent, fairly strict constitutionalists as you know, but I also try to be reasonable and acknowledge the need for at least a open consideration of common welfare such as national parks, wildlife, water air etc...

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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No context was lost

The military does protect us all, it is a frivolous exercise in arguing that point.

But not equally for the reasons I put forth.

No powers derive from the general welfare clause, only from those listed in the rest of the section.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Yes equally....

Being from a small town, I can safely say that the military benefits people from large cities and other targets of strategic value more than it does the people from my home town.

Please give a more convincing explanation why?

A nuclear holocaust is only one unlikely necessity for our military.

The military is expressly provided for in the constitution.

This whole affair addresses the Federal Governments obligation to protect our united nation.

But again, elsewhere, I agree with you constitutionally speaking.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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A trivial example

is in the placement of military resources, and hence response times. 

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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/

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Ha Ha Ha

Facts don't mean a thing to you RW!

 When I state a fact, like that government spending on the GI bill was a great investment towards a better future for our country, you dismiss that FACT completely. Then call me a socialist.

 When I state that social security has been a safety net that helped enable our country to become great you dismiss it entirely. Then call me a socialist!

 A joke.

 Yet you claim Barry's birth certificate is a fake and expect me to take your seriously.

 HA HA HA HA! 

 Good one.

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Ok let's look at what you claim here...

Facts don't mean a thing to you RW!

Funny you say that, because all anyone here has continuously requested from you are facts. Yet here again you evade them, your whole post is finger pointing and excuse making?

 When I state a fact, like that government spending on the GI bill was a great investment towards a better future for our country, you dismiss that FACT completely. Then call me a socialist.

First of all, that is not a fact, it is an opinion ML, this is a real sticking point for you, you refuse to move off these 3 things, so please let them go once and for all today, it will help you greatly!

...I have said to you many many times, (1) we do need taxation to support a constitutional government, (2) I agree with your opinion that The GI Bill was a just benefit for US Military Service Members, as is Medical etc., and (3) Street Lights and roads are perfectly good expenditures of tax revenue.

Ok, so at least make a deeper or different accusation next time.

Now then, you are a socialist. I'm not saying it like you're a pedophile, just that you're POV is one of a social interventionist in almost every respect. It's your prerogative, however, you must own your POV, and you seem to be conflicted about being what you daily profess to be?

 When I state that social security has been a safety net that helped enable our country to become great you dismiss it entirely. Then call me a socialist!

Ok here is something we could drill down into, if you were able to stay on message, and be topical in the exchange.

Please explain how a bankrupt ponzi scheme that would be shut down and it's management incarcerated in any other instance, "has been a safety net that helped enable our country to become great"?

 Yet you claim Barry's birth certificate is a fake and expect me to take your seriously.

I never claimed his birth certificate was fake! There are many others who have, and gone so far as to file court cases in regards to it, so I am simply puzzled why such an astute politician would not put such an easily correctable issue to rest, that is all.

There are some facts for you ML.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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GOP intransigence on stimulus backfiring?

I survived the Bush Administration

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Not suprising. But opposition

Not suprising. But opposition is really the only politically smart move for the Republicans. If the stimulus is sucessful, the Republicans don't have a shot anyway, Republicans only hope is for the stimulus to not be a sucess, in which case they need to be on record as having opposed it. For Republicans to support the stimulus would be for them to throw away their only good shot at a comeback.

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A tacit admission that the GOP is...

...more interested in party than country.

Not that the Dems were any better during Bush's years.... 

 

As for this:

For Republicans to support the stimulus would be for them to throw away their only good shot at a comeback.

Maybe their "comeback" should be predicated on them bringing their views more in line with the American people's instead of wishing for Obama and the Democrats to fail.

The American people sent them a clear message in the last election... and they're not getting the message.

They're turning into the Whig party before our very eyes.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

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Don't you have to go recharge your geiger meter...

00:32 - Obama says “Don’t come to the table with the same tired arguments that got us into this crisis.” I wonder if he’s talking about Barney Frank?

1:31 - Obama says America must end its addiction to foreign oil. Well Mr. President, why don’t you tell YOUR party to stop obstructing domestic drilling?

1:50 - Obama says he doesn’t care whether you drive a hybrid or an SUV. Then why does the porkulus bill include $600 million to buy new hybrid cars for the federal government?

2:27 - Translation: Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh are evil, unAmerican people.

2:53 - “They sent us here to bring change.” Is that why every one of your appointments is either a tax criminal or a lobbyist, Mr. President?

3:47 - “This is the assessment of the best economists in the country.” Really, Mr. President? I heard differently from the hundreds of economists who signed a joint statement with the CATO Institute.

4:04 - People will lose their homes. FEAR! People will lose their jobs. FEAR! People will die. FEAR!

Pass the bill! Pass the bill! Pass the bill!

FEAR! FEAR! FEAR!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Are you saying you Aren't using fear

 because if you are that would be a lie.

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Not really, its not like

Not really, its not like Repubs are going to do anything to make the economy fail, when the stimulus passes, but if the stimulus fails there's no reason the Republicans shouldn't be in position to benefit from them. And yes this is very similar to the situation the Dems were in a few months and a few years ago, especially with Iraq. However, I like to give people the benefit of doubt and assume that most people from both parties hope for the best for the country.

Maybe their "comeback" should be predicated on them bringing their views more in line with the American people's instead of wishing for Obama and the Democrats to fail.

I don't think most people vote on ideology - or at least not the swing voters. People vote on perception of performance, the economy crashed, and thousands of people died overseas under the Republicans, thus people kicked them out. I don't really think it had anything to do with not being in line with the views of Americans - the swing voters that made the difference between 2000 - 2006, and 2006 to 2008 are not that ideological.

Also I think its rather hyperbolic ( is that a word?) to say Republicans are going the way of the Wigs. Reagan won by a lot more than Obama. If anything we're going the way of 1930s Republicans which is certainly possible, but not a foregone conclusion. 

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depends on how you measure it

Reagan (in 1980) only got 50.7% of the popular vote.  By comparison Obama got 52.9%.  Reagan beat carter by 8.4 million votes.  Obama beat McCain by 9.5 million.  Where Reagan cleaned house was in the EV total (489 compared to Obama's 365).  What that really indicates is that the US in 1980 was less regionally polarized than in 2008.  Another important point is the candidacy of John Bayard Anderson in 1980 who got almost 7% of the vote.  That's a pretty significant showing for a third party (or in this case no party) candidate.  In 2008 no third party candidate managed a 1% showing.

 

Unless you meant 1984.  Against Mondale Reagan did indeed get massive support, but that was you know, Mondale

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Okay, maybe in some way

Okay, maybe in some way Reagan did bettter than Carter. But that doesn't change my point that Democrats who think Republicans are going the way of the wig when we were four points shy of half the country voting for us, are overstating things a bit.

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Or not..

 The best tact for the GOP would be to try and broaden their base.

 Here's a bit of a jolt for those that favor going further right, or think that not supporting American Job recovery by being obstructionist on the stimulus is clever.

 A letter to Rush Limbaugh from John Feehery who worked in the Republican Leadership who castigates Rush rather sarcastically for all the 'good' he is doing for the party.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18564.html

Ouch.

 

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Good old Johnny Feehery...

First, you need to have a bit of sympathy for John Feehery. He’s attacking Rush Limbaugh because he needs the money.

Feehery sold his soul to the MPAA and they fired him after the Democrats took over Congress. He needs to feed his family. For some people, political prostitution is no great leap — particularly when its a two client lobbyist who fancies himself a political strategist

But Feehery has a history of throwing his own under the bus to make a name for himself. He’s like Nicolle Wallace.

On October 25, 2008, he credited Bob Michel and Bob Dole with the Gingrich Revolution of 1994. I guess he is the only man in America who refers to 1994 as the Michel Revolution.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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