Wednesday Open Thread

Wednesday: The Dow dropped 400 points after mixed reviews of the new and improved bailout plan of the nation's banking system.

Only one story today as I have to keep an eye on my dish for my "Economic Stimulus Potluck" at work.  Is anyone else using hot dogs in their Hamburger Helper? :-)

Thursday: Both houses of Congress have came to an agreement over HR 1, the economic stimulus bill that has been debated for the last few weeks.

Today is Charles Darwin's 200th birthday .  Happy birthday, Charles!

 

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I believe that you are Ninja too: Net Neutrality

Senator Diane Feinstein Trying to Kill Net Neutrality

"According to the Register, Senator Diane Feinstein is attempting to put language into the stimulus bill that would kill net neutrality.


Ask A Ninja Special Delivery 4 "Net Neutrality"

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I've seen this before, but with informants and gov't officials

False Fact On Wikipedia Proves Itself

In short, someone made a false edit. A media outlet copied the false fact, and the outlet is used to prove the false fact.

It's a shame when media personnel are lazier than some undergrad that procrastinates too much.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Not quite there yet...

Is anyone else using hot dogs in their Hamburger Helper? :-)

I have been cooking more food stuffs and eating out less, as it should be. I just have to eat healthier stuff. I'm still eating the just-out-of-college meals--franks-n fries, sandwiches, etc..we have a caf at work and I eat a little better there, but still.

However, I have noticed the price of goods go up. Seriously..$7 for a box of Cheerios? Not when Tasteeos are 2.99 a bag...

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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$7 for cereal

Maybe $3.50 here.

I bought the Meijer-brand Organic Honey Nut "Cherrios" for $3.12.

Poor New Yorker.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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$7.00 is pretty crazy.  Is it

$7.00 is pretty crazy.  Is it made with trans fats or has it been determined that eating cereal leads to obesity.  Either of those would be a quick explanation given the presiding governance.

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Healthcare in the stimulus bill

Bloomberg is reporting some interesting stuff about the healthcare provisions of The Bill:

Hmm...sounds like an HMO on steriods:

One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions

The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs. He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept “hopeless diagnoses” and “forgo experimental treatments,” and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system.

And it seems to imply that it will somehow "push out" any other options for healthcare:

Hospitals and doctors that are not “meaningful users” of the new system will face penalties.  “Meaningful user” isn’t defined in the bill. That will be left to the HHS secretary, who will be empowered to impose “more stringent measures of meaningful use over time” (511, 518, 540-541)

What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the “tough” decisions elected politicians won’t make.

I'm all for healthcare reform.  But should this level of reform be handled via a stimulus bill that is being rushed through and getting only cursory review of it's 600+ pages, or is it an issue that deserves separate deliberation and discussion?    I think it should be separate. 

What other "stimulus" items like this are hidden in The Bill?

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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I, personally, don't see the

I, personally, don't see the logic behind this kind of reform.  I find it disgusting that anyone feels it right to determine the level of coverage a person could choose.  (please note that I see no problem with an insurance company denying coverage based on the contract agreed upon by the insurer and the insured.  It still doesn't keep them from having the treatment, it just means they'll have to pay out of pocket...  And yes, I can understand how that equivalent to a denial of treatment... kind of... but not really.)

I would really like it if a supporter of this kind of legislation could explain Daschle's logic to me and how this is good for American Health Care.  I suppose I could read his book but, after having heard him speak on several occasions, I'm pretty sure i'd be banging my head against a wall in no time.

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The only thing is the Bloomberg piece isn't accurate.

It was trumpeted by Rush & Drudge & a couple other places, but it isn't true.

The money they are suggesting spending in no way directs what care or kind of care a patient will get.  They are talking about funding 2 things.  Electronic medical records which actually the bush43 Administration started the funding for a few years ago.  Most HMO's & Insurance Groups are implementing it now because it is a more accurate way to get the records to the physician right away & it's cheaper.  The security protocols won't allow anyone else to see them....Well, I'm sure the CIA could hack them but most folks...it'll be like your bank records.

The second program is the tracking of the efficacy of treatments.  This means they will track what works & what doesn't.  You know how the drug companies will always release a 'new' drug when the patent runs out on the old one?  This will more accurately allow US ALL to see whether or not there is a difference in the results between different regiments.  Right now, it's just the Pharma companies that have these studies & they aren't required to make all their results public & they don't.  Gee...I wonder why?

So, don't get your panties into a twist over the medical dollars.  They aren't doing anything your current Insurance carrier isn't already converting over to.

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I wasn't so much talking

I wasn't so much talking about the report as I was Daschle's logic.  I already new that wasn't what the funding was all about.  And I have no problem with tracking success rates.  When an insurance company does it they use it to deny coverage for things that don't work.  That doesn't mean I can't still fork over the money to have it done...

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My comment was more directly linked

to what Purpleface said, but you followed the thread & I thought adding it after your comment was OK.

None of us wants a grand Poobah somewhere dictating our medical care, especially if that person isn't your own physician.  Sadly, that is how most insurance & HMO's operate though.  The accountants will say what is permissable & what isn't.

I remember reading Jane Hamsher talking about fighting with her insurance company over whether they would allow a more accurate test for her.  This was shortly after she had been diagnosed with breast cancer and her insurance company was telling her they wouldn't approve a more accurate test to see the extent of the cancer.  Stuff like that is scary.

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Clarification

I wasn't really giving an opinion either way on what Bloomberg reported.  Whether spending millions for medical records is a good or bad thing is a separate discussion, as is the idea they implied about "pushing out" other options: I used "implied" deliberately in that original post, since I've not read the bill myself.  

My concern is more "should this kind of thing be included in a stimulus bill?"  Healthcare is certainly broken, but it's big enough and complex enough that I think it deserves its own bill, including the funding for recordkeeping and whatnot.  Ramming it into this bill makes it seem like they feel they could not get it passed on its own, or that they do not intend to address the whole issue any time soon. I can also think of a few scenarios where a recordkeeping system of that magnitude is not necessary for the provision of adequate healthcare, in which case this bill would be wasting money that we can ill afford at the moment.

It just doesn't seem prudent or wise to me.  

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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You are no different than the majority of Americans...

...even the average Barry voter is scratching their head and wondering why we're being told this is a potential economic apocalypse, yet the bill has so little to address the crisis.

I mean we as citizens have to balance our own budgets, it's common sense if you're having money problems you need to cut back, be smart about the dough you do spend, and find ways to create more income, not go out on a shopping spree and run up more credit card debt!

This is nothing more than the liberals using an economic problem to scare people and justify an absurd spending bill.

Duh!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Devil's Advocate

It just may be that they think they need to prime the pump.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Fun fact

 Did you know that the only class of people in the US who have an absolute guarantee of health care are..... prisoners. 

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Prisoners+guaranteed...

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Which goes back to my position

on health care.

If people who break the law get it for free, then why shouldn't everyone?

I suppose the only way to do it "backward" (ie, charge inmates for health care) is to bill them for it and require it be paid back.  I don't see that working too well.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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this is false (health care information)

 will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective.

I just wasted an hour reading a chunk of the bill, and am pretty certain that this is simply false (or perhaps it is just paranoid speculation about where this may lead).

The bill addresses information technology only, not specification of treatment.

The requirements only apply to people providing services on the government's behalf (medicare, etc). There is a provision explicitly excluding the possiblities that government contractors would have to apply this sytem to their entire operations -- they only have to apply it to the work that they do on behalf of the government.

 

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Thanks for taking the time

Did the conference committee remove the specifics Bloomberg mentioned, the "Council" bit and the "meaningful users" section?

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Well.... they have a bill to vote on

 

65%-35% ratio of stimulus to tax cuts.

 

Ironically, the nearly $300 billion in tax cuts for the middle class represent the largest tax cut in our nation's history.

More than Bush's $160 billion in tax cuts for the wealthy.   More than Reagan's marginal tax rate cuts.

The fact that the cuts go to those making less than $75,000 ($150,000 for couples) and not to the wealthy will make it so the Republicans will never acknowledge that the tax cuts are there.

But the largest tax cut in our history will be signed by Obama by next week.  Less than one month into his presidency, fulfilling a key promise of the campaign.

 

Now... as for the $500+ billion in stimulus.... I'm sure that the GOP will have no issues with publicizing that.   ;-)

 

p.s.  For everyone saying the stock market gave its verdict on Geithner's plan yesterday.....   be consistent.  The market jumped 80 points when the news of the bill compromise came out.   The "market" likes the stimulus bill.

 

 

--- Your friendly "caricaturer of reality"

I survived the Bush Administration

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Because they're going to people who don't pay taxes...

LOL!

What a joke.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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They don't pay taxes?

Who is not paying taxes?

I just finished filing taxes here in New York. I would probably be considered in the lower tier of  "middle class" in NYC because I make a shade under 70,000/yr. I don't know about you, but I paid about 10,000 in taxes last year in federal alone. Plus, I'm sure people also have to pony up the payroll tax. So why do people say people don't pay yaxes? No one gets their full check, if I'm not mistaken.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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+1

I just helped a friend do their taxes.

They made about $30,000 and paid about $2,000 in federal income taxes.  They aren't rich by any means.  They could use the money and would spend it immediately.

On the other end, I filed a week back or so.  My AGI was about $5500.  Needless to say I didn't pay any federal income tax this year.  The nice/funny thing about this is that I'll have made more money by the end of February than I made all last year. 

I did pay $8 in Ohio use tax.  That has to count for something!  And then, of course, the local income taxes are all flat and have no deductions, so I paid a few $100 in total there.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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And you will get a check from obama...

Mr. Obama's campaign promise, which he has repeated in his speeches and in the presidential debates, stems from his "Making Work Pay" tax cut that will give a $500 refundable tax credit to every worker or $1,000 to each working couple. But because this provision in his economic-recovery plan is "refundable," a large number of middle- to lower-income workers who have no income-tax liability after taking tax credits and deductions the that Internal Revenue Service allows, will be given the equivalent of the tax cut in the form of direct payments from the U.S. Treasury - funded by higher-income taxpayers.

Because the IRS says that nearly 46 million tax filers - one-third of all filers - had no tax liability in 2006, there is the question of how millions of Americans can receive an income "tax cut" when they pay no taxes.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Taxes wear many hats

How much payroll taxes and other Federal taxes did Stinerman contribute?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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We're talking about income tax...

...have you ever heard of a payroll tax refund?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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And the difference here

is that I think this is a good thing.  I think this is a good thing today when I'm getting the benefit and I also think it will be a good thing tommorrow when I'm the one doing the paying.

Again, I'd rather this be done at the state level, but I'd rather it be done rather than not.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Good, PM. Now maybe next year,

...he can cut them a little more.

But do keep in mind, PM, that technically, the wealthiest get this tax cut too since they make at least $75,000 as well.

Personally, however, I can still say that the stimulus is still bloated, corrupt, a rent-seekers paradise and full of a lot of non-stimulus-related junk...and sadly, that probably speaks for at least half of the spending...if not 3/4 of it.

The economy better kick it in high gear or we're gonna have run away inflation on our hands like back in the 70s. But I'm sure the economists behind this are already working on their contingency explanations for that likely inflation to keep the attention of its cause off what they are doing right now....which is exactly where the attention will have to go...along with Bernanke's massive injections.

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Inflation?

I hear the real fear is deflation.

However I am not an economist.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

One has to be careful with

One has to be careful with the terms inflation and deflation.  In traditional economics they mean something entirely different than they do when spoken in normal conversation.  Traditionally inflation and deflation are a desciption of the supply of money.  In normal conversation they are often used to describe prices which, in a non-fiat system might be accurate.  Government officials who say that we need to inject money (read: liquidity trap) to fight deflation are really saying they want to control prices with the short term goal of encouraging spending as opposed to the purchaser waiting for the price to bottom out (read: market clearing price).  The alternative understanding is that the injection of money by defecit is in fact inflation of the money supply and so it's traditional inflation.  While this may avoid additional taxation in the short run it comes at the cost of growth in the future.  Even the CBO admitted this, although I think they under-estimated.  Of course, as Keynesians have come to understand, inflation of the money supply matters little when everyone else in the world is in the same boat.  This is also a short term approach, but I could keep going on and on.

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get ready for monetary oscillations

Since this past fall, when the government started to frantically try to increase demand, I've been expecting inflation to make a come back...hard.

Through 2007, we were facing some pretty severe inflation. Then, all of a sudden, we were facing deflation, and policymakers were trying to counter this (interest rate cuts, lending programs, stimulus spending, etc.).

The problem is that it is practically impossible for policymakers to hit their target. Their actions will inevitably be mistimed due to delays inherent in both information gathering and in acting (even if a complete analysis of the economy were possible). Their current (inflationary) decisions will continue having an effect even after they are no longer appropriate.

The only good analogy I could find was from the Wikipedia article on oscillations:

For example, the phenomenon of flutter in aerodynamics occurs when an arbitrarily small displacement of an aircraft wing (from its equilibrium) results in an increase in the angle of attack of the wing on the air flow and a consequential increase in lift coefficient , leading to a still greater displacement. At sufficiently large displacements, the stiffness of the wing dominates to provide the restoring force that enables an oscillation.

One last thought ... we have 6 billion people constantly changing their behavior based on their expectations of how everyone else will behave. I'm a bit anxious about the prospect of this ever settling down.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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The stimulus bill isn't a done deal yet.

The House & Senate still haven't officially agreed to terms although everyone says they are close.

I'll bet that the bill is closer to the House version, the House will pass it & the Senate won't.  But that's just my gut feeling.  I've seen other sites say that's what Obama is hoping too.  They say that they think it'll allow Obama to lay down the law when the bill is filibustered or defeated in the Senate.  Now that's a wee bit more conspiracy theory than I think, but it is an interesting thought.

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Yea! lets celebrate PM,

Yea! lets celebrate PM, Record Spending + Record Tax-Cuts = Record Deficit, go bu, I mean Obama!

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You are forgetting to celebrate.

 Record jobs losses, record wall street losses, record business closings and the collapse of Bear Stearns and Lehman Bros!  Celebrate that for a while John Mark. Woohoo!

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You're one of those "two

You're one of those "two wrongs make a right" people, aren't you?

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No sir!

  But since folks have short a narrow vision and pick and chose what they want to emphasize here, it is highly disingenious to  frame this as just spending and forget the why. 

 I  just thought it might be important to remember that there is a cause and effect.  As in none of this would have been necessary if the anti-govt, anti-regulation, pro-life, pro-gun party hadn't had their way for the last eight years.

 I think the spending is the right solution.  So my view, isn't two wrongs make a right,  it is trying to right a wrong.  

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Yes, those pro-gun, pro-life

Yes, those pro-gun, pro-life policies really tanked our economy. :-) One thing that is especially etched in my mind about Bush's policy is spending hikes with tax-cuts, and record deficits, in other words Obama-lite.

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;-)

 I don't think David Kuo, would walk out on the Obama administration, do you? 

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I still can't tell. As in

I still can't tell.

As in none of this would have been necessary if the anti-govt, anti-regulation, pro-life, pro-gun party hadn't had their way for the last eight years.

So are you completely unaware of the last 30 years events that led to this issue or do you just choose to ignore them and blame then on Bush because it's easier to listen to President Obama whine about what he inherited instead of take responsibility?  I honestly wonder if television is the only way you learn about the world around you.  Anyone else who spends a few minutes on it seems to be able to take a longer view of things...

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Yeah either

I am not as smart or as educated as you, or we have a difference of opinion. 

It couldn't possibly be the later, in your mind.

 

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It most certainly could be, but isn't...

Besides the handful of economist ideologues who have come out is support of this bill, how do you justify the idea that spending will do anything positive? Because besides history itself, we sure have a ton of economists that claim otherwise!

On January 9, Chairman Zero proclaimed the following:

There is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help to jumpstart the economy.

Economists have responded:

With all due respect Mr. President, that is not true.Notwithstanding reports that all economists are now Keynesians and that we all support a big increase in the burden of government, we do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance. More government spending by Hoover and Roosevelt did not pull the United States economy out of the Great Depression in the 1930s. More government spending did not solve Japan's "lost decade" in the 1990s. As such, it is a triumph of hope over experience to believe that more government spending will help the U.S. today. To improve the economy, policy makers should focus on reforms that remove impediments to work, saving, investment and production. Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.

The list of economists signing the above statement is impressive . The next stimulus package had better include some variation of the Fairness Doctrine to shut these people up.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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So in your opinion, there was

So in your opinion, there was no effort towards the deregulation you believe led to our current problem before 2001?  Really ? Are you sure I mean, you sound pretty sure about it .

Could you point me to some reading material that might let me into this little world of yours?

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I am sure

 that the Bush administration put the frosting on that deregulatory cake. 

 

 

 

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In what way, exactly?

n/t

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some stuff to read

If you feel like it you can read these changes during the Bush era that dramatically 'freed' the markets.

CDO rule changes in 2005/ CDO rule changes on whole mortgages 2005/ Moody's still in business after rating Enron Triple A in 2001/ and the SEC make following regs 'voluntary' or ignorable.

http://www.drinkerbiddle.com/files/Publication/a8c6447f-3cbd-4919-9664-0...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1722275,00.html

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:PITtWTStjgcJ:files.ali-aba.org/thum...

 

 

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lol. where to start with you.

Well.  Let's just go in order then, shall we?

In short, the SEC chose to enact rule 22c-2 of the Investment Company Act .  What's rule 22c-2 of the act?  Let's check page 63 to be sure, shall we?

the provisions of this section. (2) At any time after the expiration of eighteen months from the date of enactment of the Investment Company Amendments Act of 1970 (or, if earlier, after a securities association has adopted for purposes of paragraph (1) any rule respecting excessive sales loads), the Commission may alter or supplement the rules of any securities association as may be necessary to effectuate the purposes of this subsection in the manner provided by section 19(c) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.

 

And let's read the next section just for fun.

(3) If any provision of this subsection is in conflict with any
provision of any law of the United States in effect on the date this
subsection takes effect, the provisions of this subsection shall prevail.

cool.  So anyway, what's the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 ?  And how about that 19c part ?  And who was president for both those acts ?

But all of that aside, what was the purpose of the rule change adoption in 2005?  Sharing information with shareholders.  Interesting.  This was a fun excersize.  But where is the conspiracy for collapse?
 

Let's move on...
As far as Enron is concerned, I don't think you've a leg to stand on if you're concerned about a void in regulation being the result.  I deal with the resulting regulation every.single.day.  Who signed that again?  I forget.  But there's more to the article!  Ah yes, Moody's and S&P are bad predicters.  FIne, so people should stop listening to them.  What's that?  They worked themselves into a position of monopoly on stock ratings?  Not really, but it's definately as rediculous at Jeep's "Trail Rated" campaign.  But they started that in 1974.  That's more than 8 years ago, FYI...  And finally, probably the piece de resistance of the whole article is this little tid-bit:
 

One way to combat these tendencies would be to subject the raters to tight regulation by the sec. But that understaffed agency is unlikely to be up to the task, especially since it's not clear what exactly the task would be.

This is the same falsehood you states previously.  Not only was the SEC budget larger under Bush than any previous president, but the staffing was greater as well.  I wish he'd written that earlier in the article so I could have just closed the window!

And last but not least the third link.  Which was a partial page.  And a meaningless partial page at that.  Do you have more of it.  It just started getting to the point at the end and then that was it...
 

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+5 ...;-)

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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All is well in utopia

Bush threw money at the SEC while  undermining it's regulatory authority to enable the free markets to work their magic. We see how that worked out.

 

 

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No it's not... This is like

No it's not...

This is like the pro torture  or the anti torture debate in the War.

In this case, I'm allowed to talk about the evidence I think makes my point.  And so are you.  Claiming POV, on SwordsCrossed, is a cop-out.  And a pathetic one at that.  It leaves me thinking you didn't bother to read what you sent me and were caught off gaurd that I bothered to analyze it at all.

Other memebers of this site discuss fundamentals (even me!) with no issue.

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Discussing fundamentals

 is how we ended up going to War in Iraq. The pro-war side insisted that there was evidence that supported the case for war because of the threat of WMD. Evidence was presented to make the case that is still disputed.  It would seem that some facts have a bias.

 So a war of links to facts, and how to proceed isn't always productive, when one side claims the facts say this, and the other side says the facts say that. More important is what have we learned, (facts can lie or be skewed by point of view) and what do we do going forward.

 We have learned that there is a lot of corruption in government. We  also learn that there is corruption in the corporate world. Or on Wall Street. Or at the local office. So the corruption is not specific to govt or corporations, it is specific to human nature and how folks react to having and accumulating masses of wealth.

 

 

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Not really.  But if it helps

Not really.  But if it helps you diffuse the argument then I think I understand your tactic.  If you're understanding is that all people are currupted to some extent and so their facts are biased, let me be the first to remind you that would include all of us.  Which begs the question.  Why are you even here?  If you really beleived all that junk you just said, that would make you a loony for coming here repeatedly and not just checking in on coversations but actually tying to participate.  It makes no sense.  You're obfuscating.  Knock it off.

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No you misunderstand

I am not saying the facts are biased because all people are corrupt, not at all.

 I  saying that great wealth has the potential to be greatly abused as a means of influence. Those who understand and count on the appeal of wealth to human psychology can chose to use this knowledge to influence decisions that are both political and commercial in nature. 

 An example would be the monstrosity that is the 'global warming' debate. There are facts presented to make the case that seem diametrically opposed, with either side refusing to budge an iota. Yet arguably the most rational approach is people need clean air and clean water to survive, no matter how you think that affects the climate overall. 

 Another example would be richly compensated reps from Big Pharma that hit the media circuit to slander with 'facts' any attempt at universal health care, even though one could argue that health coverage would free small businesses and large businesses to thrive.

(On the smallest scale,  it is human nature to 'borrow' that pen and note pad from the office without returning it, while at the same time claiming that it was 'honest' to do so, rationalizing that you deserve 'more' for the work that you do. Or to pack that towel from the hotel into your bag because you 'overpaid' for your hotel stay)

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The problem lies in your own

The problem lies in your own examples.  You believe those to be true because of your already apparent bias to the solutions.  Of course we need clean air and water, but that does not mean that global warming is caused by CO2 emmsisions.  It's the start to a really annoying red herring.  Your second point is that Universal Healthcare is obvious when you remove the slander of those financially interested.  Again, a fallacy.  And the same is true of money.  Money is not the only influence.  It's just the influence people who don't like money will always bring up.

We could go on for days like this, or you could just analyze the facts on their value, as I did, rather than tell me you disagree (which I already knew) and see no way that will change.

The point of the original post you made that I questioned was that you believe our current problem was the product of the last 8 years.  I presented a lot of evidence to the contrary.  And you said, well I just disagree.  In other words, I can't argue with you because any evidence doesn't matter.

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Odd.

You totally ignored the main point I was focusing on was the potentially corrosive effect that wealth can have on human nature and how that seeps into government and business, and even hotel stays.

 It's difficult to say that you are being objective when you totally ignore what you claim is the most corrupting influence in govt, which is wealth, or taxes and the ability of rich lobbyists to pay to play for corporate influence.

 That the SEC stated that following the regs would be voluntary no matter how many people worked there is the point. He was 'freeing the markets'.

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They complied with

They complied with regulations already in place from decades ago.  How you see that as a problem created in the last eight years is still beyond me.  Stop concentrating on the symptoms and correct the disease.  Even if I didn't agree with you about it, at least you'd be consistent.

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Arrg. Bush threw money at

Arrg.

Bush threw money at the SEC while  undermining it's regulatory authority to enable the free markets to work their magic. We see how that worked out.

How am I supposed to have a discussion with someone who keeps changing their responses?  There's a preview button, you know.

Please provide evidence of this statment.  I mean specifically that Bush undermined the SEC actively.  I might agree with passivley in that he knew he appointed a moron to the post.  But even that requires a bit of telling.  So do tell.

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Watch

Harry Markopolos testimony before Congress.

 You ask for specific evidence. Well I am not a trail lawyer and the tracks have been fairly well covered, but their is a decided trend line that suggests that team Bush and his minions had a particular disdain for all manner of rules and regulations. (See JackAbramoff/Tom Delay's money laundering scheme).

  I would agree with you that there are pounds of crap in our government that need to be steam cleaned and the blatant corruption has left people beyond cynical, but I still argue that we need government and good regulations.

 If you want to get even more cynical, Judd Gregg's chief of staff is said to have strong ties to Jack Abramoff's money laundering scandal, which could explain his abrupt withdrawl  from Obama's cabinent.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/12/gregg-withdraws-...

 A day after Gregg's nomination was announced, The Associated Press reported that a former staff member was under criminal investigation for allegedly taking baseball and hockey tickets from a lobbyist in exchange for legislative favors while working for Gregg. 

 

 

The former staff member, Kevin Koonce, has been identified in court papers only as "Staffer F" in the sprawling corruption probe stemming from disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff. 

Gregg said at the time that he had been told he was neither a subject nor target of the investigation, and would cooperate fully.

 
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Pyrrho

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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It has an ampersand

Which will kill the link here and is also unnecessary.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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It works for me

So maybe you should just use the OS and browser I do.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Yeah

No thanks.

You can pry Debian out of my cold dead hands!

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Two more articles from Sullivan

Yearbook photos of well-known politicians.  Keep an eye out for Mike Huckabee and Dick Cheney.  Isn't Nancy Pelosi a fox?  *growl*

On a more serious note, Fareed Zakaria takes note of the rock-solid Canadian banking system .  It seems slow and steady does win the race.  He also obliquely makes a case for eliminating the mortgage interest deduction in the tax code:

Home prices are down 25 percent in the United States, but only half as much in Canada. Why? Well, the Canadian tax code does not provide the massive incentive for overconsumption that the U.S. code does: interest on your mortgage isn't deductible up north.

[...]

Ah, but you've heard American politicians wax eloquent on the need for these expensive programs—interest deductibility alone costs the federal government $100 billion a year—because they allow the average Joe to fulfill the American Dream of owning a home. Sixty-eight percent of Americans own their own homes. And the rate of Canadian homeownership? It's 68.4 percent.

Again, via Sullivan .

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Eliminate the Pay Roll Tax

See the Video .

Hat tip to Cafe Hayek .

Sounds like a pretty good idea.

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...and the Alternative Minimum Tax too.

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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AMT

If that wasn't a sign that the tax code was too complex, nothing ever will be.  I can just see the bill being drafted:

"So we've made so many deductions and loopholes that multimillionaires aren't paying any income taxes whatsoever.  We need to make an 'undeduction' so that this doesn't happen anymore!"

Any sane person would have eliminated the deductions (and perhaps lowered the tax brackets if need be).

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Purely as a stimulus objective

I'd have to agree.  Payroll taxes are regressive and make up the bulk of a low wage-earner's deductions.

However, the programs they pay for (SS is pay-as-you-go as everyone here knows) are pretty important.  You'd have to make that up somewhere else.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Good news

Judd Gregg withdrew from his nomination to Comerce Secretary. I am sure he will probably be a much better Senator then what his replacement would have been, who likely would have been a Chafee type Republican.

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Praise the Lord!

for small blessings.

 I don't know what either side was thinking.

Gregg was for the stimulus bill before he was against it. 

And he was against the Commerce Dept before he lobbied to get the job as the Secretary of Commerce.

 Why people, like Gregg, that don't believe in government work for the government is beyond me.

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Why people ... that don't

Why people ... that don't believe in government work for the government is beyond me.

I think this is, by far, the most ironic thing I have ever read in my entire life.  I'm almost at a loss.

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Tell me

about it!

 The anti-government crowd wants to manage the government. It's a joke on the American people.

They rail on and on about taxes and then happily lap up the pension, the health care, and the other perks provided by taxes they claim to detest.

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This would be a great signature line for you...

Why people, like Gregg, that don't believe in government work for the government is beyond me.

Stupefying....

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Mozilla: Stop complaining and get back to work.

Please! This is not only irritating but unwise.

Mozilla is pressing the EU to impose sanctions on Microsoft over brower issues.

I don't know about you but I use Mozilla 100% of the time. A lot of people do.

Ryan Paul has the story.

It's also worth noting that Microsoft's dominant position in the operating system market—which is cited as the company's unfair advantage over the rest of the browser makers—has also declined over the past year as Apple's Mac OS X operating system gains record traction. That factor by itself is eroding Microsoft's ability to retain Internet Explorer's entrenched status.

To the observant tech enthusiast, all signs seem to indicate that Microsoft's monopoly is on its way out. The Redmond giant is in no danger of annihilation, but it's definitely not positioned to dictate terms to the rest of the industry anymore.

...

The popularization of the open source development model arguably emerged as a response to Microsoft's monopoly. Developers had to find innovative ways to compete with an entrenched product. If the government had intervened in the software industry at an early stage and those conditions hadn't existed, the browser market could arguably be a lot less rich and competitive than it is today. If Internet Explorer had never gained the dominant marketshare to necessitate a change in the status quo, the only browser choices we would have today might be between an ad-encumbered Opera and a proprietary Netscape.

It's risky to let the government perpetually equalize the market, because sometimes the greatest innovations appear when inventors have to face tougher odds. It's also worthwhile to wonder what will happen when the shoe is on the other foot.

I agree with him. Mozilla's complaining sounds hollow in light of its ever-climbing market share. Competition is alive and well and Mozilla is benefiting from it.

Once again, like like Google before them , Mozilla is becoming a product of the system and creeping into the "parasite economy" whereby it devouts more and more time and money in using government to get what it wants instead of just by being better than its competitors....the old-fashioned way.

Do read the rest of Paul's article. Very interesting for tech-junkies.

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I mean you can't beat it...especially with...

...Ad Block Plus, Fast Dial, PhProxy, NoScript, etc....

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Well that's a new one

I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone arguing for monopolies before. Let's make things really difficult for competitors so they have to be especially innovative to succeed! Granted, it's got a perverse logic to it, but I would be pretty leery of projecting what happened with the browser market to a more general lesson.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Nobody is arguing for monopolies

come on, SL. I hold you to a higher standard than that. Don't let me down.

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Yes, this is on topic

Breatharianism

And Breatharianism doesn't advocate people starving to death.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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hehehe

oof.

no way.

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Well, I honestly thought that

Well, I honestly thought that monopoly-busting was one of the few areas where even Libertarians were OK with government intervention, so this is a new argument to my ears. If you have a problem with the "for monopolies" phrasing, then you can write that off as a lazy semantic shortcut. "For monopolies" equals "against anti-monopoly."

Anyway, using Microsoft as an example of what good can come from a monopoly when government doesn't interfere seems like a weird argument, since the government did interfere in this case.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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But beyond that, SL

The general lesson from what you describe (though I wouldn't quite word it the way you did) is a good general lesson to take in its proper light.

Monopolies without structural or government-backed strength to perpetuate themselves with no fear of inroads from potential competion are simply unlikely to last. Nothing lasts. Entrepreneurs are born every minute.

And yes, it's quite easy to imagine examples (very connected to real life) where premature interference from government at the behest of whining competitors can set a chain of events in motion that would leave the future playing field stagnant and oligarchic.

Remember our discussion about constantly evolving circumstances, innovations, knowledge, technology and needs. You know about this. Jumping the gun and hitting the panic button only looks sensible when we think there is nothing unknown beyond the end of our puny, measly, myopic little human noses stuck forever in the limited opaque little box we call the present.

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And yes, it's quite easy to

And yes, it's quite easy to imagine examples (very connected to real life) where premature interference from government at the behest of whining competitors can set a chain of events in motion that would leave the future playing field stagnant and oligarchic.

You mean like when the big three began to complain about foreign cars and so the Federal Government created import tarrifs in the amount of $1500 per car.  So what did the big three do?  Raise the price of their cars by $1500 dollars without modifying a single thing.  All it really accomplished was three auto manufacturers that spent the next 25 years sitting on their laurels while the foreign auto makers worked their tails off to add value to their cars so that the tarrif would be offset by volume due to customer perception.  Fast forward and... well I think you guys know the rest of the story.  And I wish that was the only example for just the auto industry.  There's more.

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I never pass up the chance to pimp Iceweasel

Iceweasel : Firefox but better. ;-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Britain Reduced to Begging Muslims Not to Attack

The sun has set on the British Empire after all. This once proud country has been reduced to running ads on Pakistani television, begging Muslim bullies to leave it alone on the grounds that Britain is becoming Islamized. The taxpayer is putting up £400,000 to finance the campaign.

If bureauweenies determine them to be successful, more money will be wasted running the humiliating ads in Egypt, Yemen, and Indonesia.

An alternate approach would be to stop letting Muslims colonize what's left of their country. But then they wouldn't be able to plead for protected dhimmi status.

British Muslims
Muslims at play on the streets of Britainistan.

Hat tip: Jihad Watch ; on tips from SK and Burning Hot .

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Top National Security Threat is the Economy

 Dennis Blair, the new Director of National Intelligence, testified yesterday as to the threat assessment of the global economic turmoil, and the unrest and instability that could outpace terrorism as the most urgent threat facing the US.

  The most important yet difficult issue we face is getting our banking industry to function and to get credit flowing again.

 Keeping financial markets alive and preventing the world economy from sliding into a recession must take precedence over all else.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/washington/13intel.html

 

Mr. Blair singled out the economic downturn as “the primary near-term security concern” for the country, and he warned that if it continued to spread and deepen, it would contribute to unrest and imperil some governments.

“The longer it takes for the recovery to begin, the greater the likelihood of serious damage to U.S. strategic interests,” he said.

 

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