A Republican on Why Rush Is Bad for the GOP

Many voiced defenses and attacks on Rush Limbaugh and his relationship with the GOP this week, but a predictable pattern emerged in which Republicans defended Rush and his apologizers while Democrats scoffed and ridiculed the man and the apologies.

In the partisan demonizing of Rush and his attackers, few questioned the implications and consequences of Rush as the leader and face of the GOP, that is until David Frum, Bush (the second) speech writer and life-long conservative, gave his perspective today on what Rush actually brings to (or rather repulses from) the Republican party in his Newsweek article, "Why Rush Is Wrong ." After guaranteeing his conservative credentials as a defense to the RINO-type attacks he foresees as the most predictable rebuttal to his statements, he moves on to his reasoning on why Rush is not the spokesperson the right needs at this moment.

It really comes down to two words: independents and women. He proclaims that Obama does an exceptional job attracting these groups (and conservatives) by appealing to accountability and family-values:

On the one side, the president of the United States: soft-spoken and conciliatory, never angry, always invoking the recession and its victims. This president invokes the language of "responsibility," and in his own life seems to epitomize that ideal: He is physically honed and disciplined, his worst vice an occasional cigarette. He is at the same time an apparently devoted husband and father. Unsurprisingly, women voters trust and admire him.

Rush, on the other hand, does just the opposite. His demeanor, physical appearance, and marital history bespeak of someone antithetical not only to women and independents, but also conservative values:

And for the leader of the Republicans? A man who is aggressive and bombastic, cutting and sarcastic, who dismisses the concerned citizens in network news focus groups as "losers." With his private plane and his cigars, his history of drug dependency and his personal bulk, not to mention his tangled marital history, Rush is a walking stereotype of self-indulgence—exactly the image that Barack Obama most wants to affix to our philosophy and our party. And we're cooperating! Those images of crowds of CPACers cheering Rush's every rancorous word—we'll be seeing them rebroadcast for a long time.

Think about it. Rush is already hurting among women (he even admitted recenlty that he should hold a conference on why he has a gender gap of 30 points in his listening audience). Women consist of the majority of this nation and an ever-increasing segment of the voting bloc. Rush's latest comments reiterating his hope that Obama fails might do well among conservatives who strongly abhor socialist policies, but a moderate public is mostly worried about their jobs and navigating this economic downturn, not ideological principles. While Frum agrees that he wants liberal policies to fail, he argues Rush missed an important distinction when making his infamous declaration that he "hopes Obama fails."

Notice that Limbaugh did not say: "I hope the administration's liberal plans fail." Or (better): "I know the administration's liberal plans will fail." Or (best): "I fear that this administration's liberal plans will fail, as liberal plans usually do." If it had been phrased that way, nobody could have used Limbaugh's words to misrepresent conservatives as clueless, indifferent or gleeful in the face of the most painful economic crisis in a generation. But then, if it had been phrased that way, nobody would have quoted his words at all—and as Limbaugh himself said, being "headlined" was the point of the exercise. If it had been phrased that way, Limbaugh's face would not now be adorning the covers of magazines. He phrased his hope in a way that drew maximum attention to himself, offered maximum benefit to the administration and did maximum harm to the party he claims to support.

Instead of repeating the same cliché lines about Reagan and the policies of the past, Frum believes the conservative movement needs to evolve to meet the demands of the present.

Of course, we can keep repeating our old lines all the same, just the way Tip O'Neill kept exhorting the American middle class to show more gratitude to the New Deal. But politicians who talk that way soon sound old, tired, and cranky. I wish somebody at the … GOP presidential debate at the Reagan Library had said: "Ronald Reagan was a great leader and a great president because he addressed the problems of his time. But we have very different problems—and we need very different answers. Here are mine."

The voting trends show an increasing populace wary of the Republican party and the solutions (or lack of) they offer. In order to overcome this downward spiral, Frum argues they need to modulate (not erdicate) social conservativism. In other words, they can accomodate the po-lifers without running a president or vice-president that makes it the party platform. The gay rights movement is too strong to overcome and will only cost them the youth vote in upcoming elections. He says the GOP must adopt a more environmental approach regarding conservation even if they do not bow down to Gore and the loss of property rights. Lastly, Republicans need to practice whtat they preach when they hold power. The party lost a lot of trustworthiness during the presidency of Bush and his obedient GOP congress.

Above all, we need to take governing seriously again. Voters have long associated Democrats with corrupt urban machines, Republicans with personal integrity and fiscal responsibility. Even ultraliberal states like Massachusetts would elect Republican governors like Frank Sargent, Leverett Saltonstall, William Weld and Mitt Romney precisely to keep an austere eye on the depredations of Democratic legislators. After Iraq, Katrina and Harriet Miers, Democrats surged to a five-to-three advantage on the competence and ethics questions. And that was before we put Sarah Palin on our national ticket.

He comes away with the warning that Rush speaks of a country that no longer exists, says that change is not necessary, and believes that the same failed approaches will win in the future. Frum does not buy it. Frum argues it is time for the conservatives to find a redeeming voice in light of the harmful policies of Obama:

Decisions that will haunt American taxpayers for generations have been made with hardly a debate. The federal government will pay more of the cost for Medicaid, it will expand the SCHIP program for young children, it will borrow trillions of dollars to expand the national debt to levels unseen since WWII. To stem this onrush of disastrous improvisations, conservatives need every resource of mind and heart, every good argument, every creative alternative and every bit of compassionate sympathy for the distress that is pushing Americans in the wrong direction. Instead we are accepting the leadership of a man with an ego-driven agenda of his own, who looms largest when his causes fare worst.

Unfortunately, those that promote and defend Rush are benefiting Obama more than harming him in the public eye. This result will either drag the Republican party down further or will be overcome through a distancing from the pseudo-imagery of conservatism espoused by those like Limbaugh.

I'm a pretty conservative guy. On most issues, I doubt Limbaugh and I even disagree very much. But the issues on which we do disagree are maybe the most important to the future of the conservative movement and the Republican Party: Should conservatives be trying to provoke or persuade? To narrow our coalition or enlarge it? To enflame or govern? And finally (and above all): to profit—or to serve?

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Even Frum seems to have to cover his bases at the end

"I'm conservative", + "see, I really agree with Rush on the issues; our differences are merely stylistic..."

Sad state of affairs for that party...

 

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There's a disconnect....

.. between Conservatism's true believers and rank and file Republicans.

Actually, that doesn't go far enough -- there's a disconnect among Conservatism's true believers.  One side really thinks that the best way to win is to mock and denigrate liberals -- not just the beliefs, but the people.  The other side seems to want to attack the ideology -- its ideas, means, and methods -- without the snark.  The first group, represented by Limbaugh, is winning.  The second group, mostly leaderless, is relatively quiet.

The really interesting part of this article to me was the argument that the Republicans need to adapt their focus and methods to the times -- that they need to take a step back, reformulate their message based upon the realities of today, and come back with a retooled presentation of Conservatism.  I think that's exactly right.  But the Limbaugh wing apparently finds that distasteful.

And as Rush said, Conservatives believe that conservatism itself is there -- it doesn't change, and one either adheres to it, or not.  No middle ground, no picking and choosing -- if you do that, you're squishy, or a RINO.  Personally, I find that objectionable.

Then again, I find any rigid ideology to be objectionable.  The only really true thing you can say about social structures is that they're changing -- the world is changing.  We don't yet know what a global economy really looks like, or how it can be effectively managed.   Many Conservatives seem to be saying that all we need to fix these incredibly complicated systems are the same old tools and rules that were used prior to the New Deal... but I don't see how this country will ever realistically function well as anything other than a capitalist social democracy.

It's certainly very interesting.

 

 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Agreed on many points.

Rush appeals to raw political emotion for conservatives. He's about tapping into that gut reaction that, I suppose, feels self-righteous and on the money. He says what many of the die-in-wool conservatives are FEELING.

Sadly, Rush and his minions don't see what that raw feeling looks like to many outside that camp. Frum points to this idea when he talks about independents and women. It can be off-putting when you haven't already drunk the kool-aid.

It's quite obvious to me what Frum wants in politician:

Someone who will generally advance policies that Rush supports but who approaches matters more cerebrally and with a polished speech style and who does this is in a way to win over more serious minded people...especially those who are women and independents.

That's why conservatives love Reagan so much. He said what they feel but he did it in a way that was more palatable to non-hard-core types...especially independents and women (See:Reagan Democrats).

The GOP doesn't have that now. That's not to say there aren't Republicans in DC who couldn't fill those shoes but they are not in the limelight....nowhere near it. Not only that but the GOP's image is based far too much on things that quite frankly don't matter. Too many unspeakable cultural and social grievances lie at the heart of what drives them. Sometimes those grievances are in line with the silent majority and they win points. Right now, it's not happening that way, IMO.

Wonkish "Conservative Intelligentia" does indeed exist. The problem is that it's not really "conservative" in a broad-based, emotion "Limbaugh" type way. And that's a problem for the GOP.

They risk becoming more populist and reactionary by sticking with Limbaugh. The "Joe the Plumber" type voter is what he respresents. It's raw emotion in search of a thoughtful line or two from a reputable scholar to back it up. It's fake.

 

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someone like Michael Steele?

Someone who will generally advance policies that Rush supports but who approaches matters more cerebrally and with a polished speech style and who does this is in a way to win over more serious minded people

I don't really know much about Steele, but this seems to match what I've heard/seen about him.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Could be.

I'm not sure.

Personally, I'm partial to Jeff Flake. But that presents a lot of problems:

I'm not a conservative. So my opinion isn't accurate.

His views conflict often with many DC GOP interests...as well as Rush and his crew.

He's really a libertarian who's a member of the GOP. And seeing how poorly Ron Paul did in the primaries, it's not promising for Flake....especially since Flake is more libertarian and less conservative than Paul.

If most Republicans were like Flake, we wouldn't be talking about Limbaugh.

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Hogwash! Hogwash I say.

Rush does not appeal to emotionalism.  That is purely the venue of the liberals (i.e. "do it for the little children").  Rush mocks the left not on an emotional level, but on an intellectual one.  And he does it quite effectively.  Don't let the fact that he wraps it all up in a nice little bit of scathing humor fool you, his positions are always well thought out.  Anyone who doesn't understand this just doesn't get Rush, and probably never will.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Pfft, to you my good friend!

 Sad state of affairs for that party...

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Rush being unliked by anybody

Rush being unliked by anybody who's not a doctrinaire Republican is pretty simple. He has a very simple hyper-partisan worldview in which everybody to the left of him is at war(or accomodating) with all that is good. Rather than argue from principles ( which is ironic, because his apologists will say he's all about principle), of what size government should be and what taxes are needed to support it, he just sticks to the simple formula of cut spending and taxes - which would logically lead to no government. Moderates are called sqishes, if you don't agree with him you have a brain full of mush. These are the reasons that people don't like Rush. I think Frum totally misses the point when he talks about things like his appearance, drug use, and his private jet... most people don't even know these things or care. What they know is what they hear on the radio. Women like him less than men for two reasons, women tend to be nicer than guys, and women tend to not like politics. Frum has this image where people pay a lot more attention to politics than what they do.

Frum also misses the point when he identifies social issues as one of the big problems of the GOP. California rejecting gay marriage, shows that issue is not yet a loser for the party. Going moderate on abortion isn't going to help, because the people who are moderate on abortion aren't voting based on abortion. Its really only the bases that care about social issues, and if the Republican Party goes half way, all there going to do is lose  their own base, and there not going to pick up the other base because they only went half way. If they go all the way and become a libertarian party, than you can see who's a bigger group, libertarians or SoCons, I think its SoCons. Frum's strategy is a great stategy for winning straw polls on the internet, and in academia, but not so much for actually winning.

He's right about the need to be seen as competent and ethical again. On enviromental concerns I don't think coming off as more concerned about the enviroment is a bad thing. However, I think it misses the point as to why we lost. The reason we lost is really pretty simple in my mind: the economy. My suggestion is to move away from being stuck on spend less, tax less, and actually formulate a position on what the size of government should be and how much taxation is needed to support that level. The public saw one party that appeared willing to critically look at spending and taxes and consider what should be done, while no matter what the situation the other party's solution was cut cut cut.  The Republican Party should also make it clear that they are not the anti-welfare, burn government to the ground party. They've made this plenty clear by their actions, but people who listen to talk radio and such would still think that being a good Republican is all about destroying government's services to the needy. We're not going to get a rid of welfare, we might as well not lose votes by constantly bashing it, instead we need be the party that willing to save welfare and government from itself, willing to save government from destruction by endless expansion.

We should also become the party of fiscal responsibility. The party that willing to turn our backs on the Bush/Obama years of reckless deficit spending, and actually pay for what we buy. As I write this I realize I'm basically writing what I would like to see the Republican Party turn in to, but then that's what we're all doing. And I think there can be a better case made for winning by changing our approach on economics, which everybody cares about, than changing it on social issues which at this time anyway few people care about.

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I think this approach would

I think this approach would also be effective in reaching minorities. I don't think most of them want socialism like the hardcore liberals do, they just fear Republicans because they have image of trying to burn down the safety net. If Republicans change their tone, and make it clear that they care about taking care of the truly needy, these minorities which tend to be Socially conservative can be brought in to the Republican tent. Another prime demographic is Conservative who are very socially conservative, but don't like the Reupblican attitude to the poor. 

Ficons will stay in the party because it will remain very pro-capitalistic, and against having government taking care of anything, but the bare essentials. The Party will still remain opposed to trillion dollar spending just to manipulate the economy by increasing the size of government. Except when the free market fails to provide for people's basic needs the government will stay out of the way. FiCons will also stay in the party because it will be the party of fiscal responsibility. The party that rejected the sky-high tax-cuts and spending hikes of Bush/Obama years. 

 

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Some agreement, some disagreement with ya’, John…

Rush being unliked by anybody who's not a doctrinaire Republican is pretty simple. He has a very simple hyper-partisan worldview in which everybody to the left of him is at war(or accomodating) with all that is good.

 

Bingo. And while some – apparently including Frum – are primarily focused on Republicans regaining power and are critical of Rush only because he makes achieving that objective soon less likely, everyone, of all political orientations from extreme right all the way to extreme left (and “other”) should be disturbed and disgusted by Rush and his many imitators on both right and left who have largely hijacked (directly and by their influence on other media) political discourse in America, dragging it down into the depths of hyperpartisan oversimplifications designed to provide the audience with simple answers, self-righteousness, and the camaraderie of an “us (good)” vs. “them (evil or ignorant/stupid)” mindset. And these two awful trends – dumbed-down, hyperpartisan media and dumbed-down, hyperpartisan Americans – have been mutually-reinforcing (the more of those Americans created by that type of media, the greater the market for the that type of media). 

Rather than argue from principles ( which is ironic, because his apologists will say he's all about principle), of what size government should be and what taxes are needed to support it, he just sticks to the simple formula of cut spending and taxes - which would logically lead to no government. Moderates are called sqishes, if you don't agree with him you have a brain full of mush.

I would say that lack of principles – if by principles you mean political philosophy -- aren’t the problem with Rush, but rather his hyperpartisanship (putting party interests* or ideological agenda above a good faith effort to present “truth”) and his lack of pragmatism, both of which are reflected in the example you offer of his mindless advocacy of tax cuts anytime, all the time, and his insistence on perpetuating the myth that tax cuts always increase revenues, which it surely would not take him long to learn is baloney (and which I suspect he already knows is baloney – but hey, baloney is read meat he can throw to the loyal “dittoheads”).

* I think Rush is first and foremost about Rush’s interests, meaning money and fame, not the interests of the Republican Party or advancing a conservative agenda, so I mean “supposedly” putting those interests above a good-faith effort to present the “truth”.


Women like him less than men for two reasons, women tend to be nicer than guys, and women tend to not like politics.

Perhaps rather than “nicer” the key is that women may have a greater tendency to want to actually listen to the other side and try to understand and perhap empathize, whereas men may tend to be more oriented toward assertiveness, winning an argment, and dominance. (Yes, I know, vast overgeneralizations, but I’m speaking in terms of proportions, and it’s just my speculation based on stuff I’ve read and on my life experience)

Frum also misses the point when he identifies social issues as one of the big problems of the GOP. California rejecting gay marriage, shows that issue is not yet a loser for the party.

Perhaps, but Frum may be speaking of a long-term trend associated with younger voters and voters-to-be, who tend to be less insistent on denying millions of Americans equal rights in order to impose their religious doctrine and religious marketing on others. In a couple of decades, maybe a few decades, people will view the denial of equal marriage rights for same-sex couples more or less the way we now view anti-miscegenation laws and racial segregation, and most people will look at their elders and wonder (and perhaps ask, although hopefully politely) “What the heck was your problem??” And some older folks will say something along the lines of whatever old former segregationists say to their grandkids now, and others – those whose views haven’t changed – will dance around with the same all-over-the-place mumbo jumbo that opponents of equal marriage rights throw out even though every one of their arguments falls apart under scrutiny, because none of them are their real rationale, which is to discourage homosexuality, to be seen discouraging homosexuality, and to promote their religion. Period. Bottom line. And that ain’t no justification for denying other Americans equal rights. Which is why most such folks won’t just come out and say that that’s their rationale (and may not even admit it to themselves), but instead come out with all kinds of crappola that falls apart once its questioned, as we’ve seen right here on SC and as I’ve seen on RedState and elsewhere.

Going moderate on abortion isn't going to help, because the people who are moderate on abortion aren't voting based on abortion.

I don’t know what a “moderate on abortion” politician or presidential ticket would be, but it seems like either would be more a matter of confusing voters than of actual policy positions and likely impact on abortion law. Sure, there are the relatively minor issues such as parental consent and “partial-birth” abortion, the kind of issues Giuliani could reverse himself on, add his commitment to “strict constructionist judges/justices” (by which he meant originalists), while still calling himself pro-choice, thus trying to get pro-lifers to think they’d get everything they want despite his personal views, while trying to get pro-choicers to think he’ll really lean their way. Same deal with Frum’s idea of a McCain-Ridge ticket.

Want a position that perhaps could be called “moderate”, but which I would call simply “sensible”? Here: http://swordscrossed.org/node/1736  (And that reminds me that one of these days I need to reply to knocienz because I have a good response that I’ve never fully written up.)

As for your premise, you may be underestimating how many women will not even consider voting for an “anti-choice” presidential candidate. I can tell you anecdotally, albeit mostly from experience in CT,NJ, New York City and Chicago, that a LOT of professional, high-income women who are big on tax cuts fit that category, and it’s the first thing out of their mouth when discussing the candidates. Plus, there are a lot of voters who may not consider a pro-choice position absolutely necessary, but who still factor it in and who get a general "ick" feeling about the Bible-thumping, Bible-imposing crowd that are so closely associated with the GOP, and the pro-life movement is certainly part of that.

And here, too, I think generational differences will, over time, make a pro-life position for a presidential candidate less and less of a net winner (or more of a net loser, if it already is) as more younger Americans toss aside the desire to impose their religion on others, particularly when it means imposing on the liberties of fellow Americans. But for now, it’s hard to say if a truly pro-choice Republican presidential candidate (or ticket) would to better or worse, ceteris paribus, than a pro-life candidate (or ticket). It may be that for now, the disruption in the party would be so great and the anger among much of the base so great that he would do worse. What would happen if a pro-choice candidate were nominated over a two or three cycles, though, is far less clear (to me, at least). In any case, unless the Republican party moves to mostly open primaries, for now it seems unlikely that we’ll see a truly pro-choice Republican nominee.

Its really only the bases that care about social issues, and if the Republican Party goes half way, all there going to do is lose  their own base, and there not going to pick up the other base because they only went half way.

I disagree with your underlying implication of a dichotomy in which each voter goes one way or the other based on who is closer to his view on “social issues”. Most voters (like most consumers) are either multiple-issue voters or have thresholds that must be “satisficed” for a candidate to be considered – that is, the candidate need not be exactly where they’d like him to be, but is good enough to be considered and may be preferred based on other strengths. Going “half way” (e.g., favoring civil unions for same-sex couples with rights fully equivalent to marriage, or opposing abortion only after, say, month 5 or whenever some level of brain activity indicative of “personhood” is evident) could satisfice many more people on social issues and could potentially be a political net winner. Maybe not, but it’s conceivable. And over time, with generational change, it will become less disadvantageous or more advantageous.

We should also become the party of fiscal responsibility. The party that willing to turn our backs on the Bush/Obama years of reckless deficit spending, and actually pay for what we buy.

Absolutely. The label “fiscal conservative” has been hijacked and perverted by “FCINOs” http://swordscrossed.org/node/1916  I’ve said for many years that someday some politician or party will, either when the time is right or by force of persuasion, capitalize on the third (and as yet unexploited) dimension of fiscal policy: Responsibility. All we have today are Republicans who want to tax too little relative to the spending they seek and can realistically expect to achieve, and Democrats who want to spend too much relative to the level of taxation they seek and can realistically expect to achieve. Obama is talking the talk of fiscal responsibility, but so far he isn’t walking the walk. Let’s see if he gets serious about changing Medicare and Social Security to lower their projected long-term spending.

 

 
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Well, I'm speaking more in

Well, I'm speaking more in terms of what the party can do to win now, not in the next generation. Unfortunately, you may be right about the deteriotating moral values in society. However, you never know, I don't think society always moves in one direction. I think some of things will take more time than what you think, of course I don't know how long you expect it to take. It may not take long before states like California, NY... accept gay marriage, but it's going to take a lot longer for the rest of the country.

This still seems to boil down to us thinking that our brand is best for the party, which probably means were both partially wrong.  We could no doubt gain pro-choice FiCons if we moderated on abortion, but are there really more pro-choice FiCons than SoCons? Personally I doubt it. I also doubt that they are located in places that will make up for the ground the party would lose by going pro-choice. There's probably not enough of these buisnesswoman in New York and Chicago to flip their areas from deep blue to red.

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you may be right about the

you may be right about the deteriotating moral values in society

No, I was referring to the deterioration of the kind of faux morality that you call "moral values", indeed an immoral approach to morality, one that doesn't base morality on the harm or benefit that an act is expected to cause (which is the basis for true morality) but rather on some lazy and self-serving substitute for such thinking and moral calculus. Any version of morality that says "this act is moral" or "this act is immoral" regardless of the harm or benefit that the act is expected to cause is a mockery of the concept of morality. Yeah, yeah, I know, you'll say that you know there's this guy in the sky and you know what he wants us to do and not do and you know what his rewards and punishments are and so anything he says we should not do will have net harmful consequences by definition. Blah, blah, blah. It's just an excuse to walk away from one's moral obligation to engage in moral calculus, and thus it's a highly immoral approach to morality. I don't mean to get prickly, but I just hate to see the perversion of the word morality. See "Values" (by which I meant the term you used as you used it, "moral values") at  http://swordscrossed.org/node/1721

are there really more pro-choice FiCons than SoCons?

Maybe, maybe not. That would require some research (secondary research, that is. I'm sure polls are available somewhere online that can at least shed some light on that question).

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Yeah sure BR, I just got

Yeah sure BR, I just got tired of figuring out what was right, so I said "I'm gonna get me some religion, that'll make it easier". Yes sir, you figured me right out, my religion is just a ploy to get out of brainwork. On a more serious note, your morality is ridiculously arrogant. There's no way to put a value on human life, on love, on happiness, but you would need to, if your were to have any real morality. Also, if you were right (you're not) than I think a big nuclear bomb to blow the world to pieces, might be the best solution. Afterall is the okay life ( which is often torn up by internal feelings of great anguish), really worth the sufferings of people who are starving or are being tortured and killed in war torn areas? You think that by the pure force of human intelect we can come to solve this world's problems, I must say, this world would have been a much happier place if humans never evolved.

 

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On a side note why can't we

On a side note why can't we just stick to bashing Rush, instead of going into another religous war of words. :-)

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Because agreement is no fun

Because agreement is no fun

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What's wrong with a objective

What's wrong with a objective morality that had a sudden shift and is subjectively applied based on the given culture the objective truth is introduced into ?

What's wrong with people being lead to believe their subjective opinions could be or at least based on objective truths?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I don't understand your

I don't understand your question (or even know if it was a real question), but I loved the video, especially the afterlife part. I hope John checks it out, although I'm sure he'll just say essentially the same thing that each of those three said: "Sure, there are conflicting views, but that doesn't mean that one isn't right....And mine is right. Definitely. I'm virtually sure of it. Because...well...I can just feel it."

Oh well, at least John (whom I like a lot) is intelligent and a good critical thinker in general, and he has a lot of years ahead of him in which to pull back and start apply to the question of faith the same reason he applies to assessing the credibility of all other claims and notions in his life, and he'll realize that religious faith is just darn silly. And if not, he's one of the persons of faith who I think is a better person for it in terms of how he treats others (on balance, net of stuff like denying gays equal rights just because his imaginary guy in the sky doesn't approve of homosexuality, and even advocating [as I'm presuming he did and does] delay of life-saving and hugely life-improving cures and treatements for diseases that could have come were it not for impediments to embryonic stem-cell research -- perhaps the most shameful and immoral product of this silly religious approach to morality).

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Yeah sure BR, I just got

Yeah sure BR, I just got tired of figuring out what was right, so I said "I'm gonna get me some religion, that'll make it easier". Yes sir, you figured me right out, my religion is just a ploy to get out of brainwork.

I was not implying that sequence, although it could be the case and may be for many people. Rather, regardless of what led people "of faith" to be such, those who substitute some deontological rule-book absolutes, asserting that some act is inherently moral or inherently immoral regardless of likely/possible consequences are acting irresponsibly and thus immorally, because their immoral approach to morality could lead them to, say, deliberatly fly airplanes into civilian buildings filled with innocent people without any apparent just cause (in terms of harms vs. benefits), or to take that "big nuclear bomb" you mention and "blow the world to pieces" (or perhaps just nuke Manhattan or London or Denmark) even if they have no rationale other than their belief that some guy in the sky told them to do it. And I believe that at least a large portion of those who approach morality in this way do so out of laziness and/or self-interest (to ensure some reward from their deity or avoid some punishment). It may not be what brought them to religious faith, but once they have it, it is the key driver of that immoral approach to morality.

On a more serious note, your morality is ridiculously arrogant. There's no way to put a value on human life, on love, on happiness, but you would need to, if your were to have any real morality.

What is arrogant about saying that the morality of an act should be based on the likely/probable harms and benefits the act will cause? Granted, if this helps, the extended version that I usually state includes the moral obligation one has to devote a degree of consideration of potential consequences that is appropriate to the level of potential harm, and one must take a reasonable view of one's ability to anticipate potential consequences and assign probabilities. So the morality of someone who gets really drunk some day and gets the notion that doing some serious harm to someone else would be morally justified (or even a moral obligation) and proceeds to do it without giving it much thought is quite different from the morality of someone who has given it considerable thought, research, tried to find better solutions, whatever. And yes, humility -- acknowledgement of one's limited knowledge relative to the accumulated "wisdom" of humanity or of a culture (sometimes reflected in religious doctrine) -- should give one some pause when considering deviating sharply, but that tradition or custom or religious rule should be a consideration, not the be-all, end-all of whether an act is moral or immoral.

But I'm guessing that the problem you have with what I've said -- the "arrogance" you see -- is not (or is not primarily) the thought that someone would lack the humility of considering the possibly superior wisdom reflected in norms or traditions per se, but rather that you think it's arrogant for a person to think he can assess the morality/immorality of an act without the help of the supposed word of some imaginary dude in the sky. If that's the problem you have with what I've said, (1) it is, like all this faith stuff, just Nutjob City, and (2) apparently you haven't considered the immense arrogance it takes for you to be so confident that you know that there is this god of yours and that you know what it thinks is moral or immoral to do that you are willing to apply and promote your nonsensical and potentially greatly injurious approach to morality -- an approach that can call an act moral even if the anticipated apparent harms greatly outweigh the benefits, and can call an act immoral even if the opposite is the case.

Also, if you were right (you're not) than I think a big nuclear bomb to blow the world to pieces, might be the best solution. Afterall is the okay life ( which is often torn up by internal feelings of great anguish), really worth the sufferings of people who are starving or are being tortured and killed in war torn areas?

That's really silly. And I'd MUCH rather a thoughtful, informed, appropriately intellectually humble person who weighs harms and benefits (as the basis for morality) be the one deciding whether or not to drop a nuclear weapon on some city vs. some guy who will base his decision on something he reads as some one-size-fits-all absolute deontological rule (religous or secular) like "Thou shall not kill" or "Thou must kill the infidels", or who basis his decision on whether or not he thinks some imaginary space man is telling him whether or not to launch those nukes.

You think that by the pure force of human intelect we can come to solve this world's problems, I must say, this world would have been a much happier place if humans never evolved.

No, I like your idea better. Let's just put aside our ability to get any sense of likely/possible harms and benefits of an act, and instead base our assessments of the morality or immorality of an act we are considering committing on some deontological rules (that we imagine were given to us from an imaginary entity like the Easter Bunny) that supposedly determine morality or immorality regardless of (or at least above and beyond) any consideration of the extent to which the act causes harm and/or benefit. Oh yeah, that's just a wonderful concept of morality. Boooo!

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That's really silly. Of

That's really silly.

Of course you see it that way. You live in a culture that has taught you to value human life. But as far as I can see there's no way using your logic to know whether human existence is really worth it. Even if we saw our own life as being worth it, You and I have no idea what kind of suffering goes on in other people's lives. Even if you think we're bound to get better and better, and reach some kind of utopia, the solar system could likely snuff life out before its become worthwhile.  Now, you'll probably insist that life on earth really is a good thing, and I would tend to agree, but how do you logically know that, based on your system of logic? What kind of calculator do you have that allows you to calculate all the suffering and all the joy and determine that ultimately life is worthwhile. It seems to me a pretty good case could be made that the extreme suffering of cancer, AIDS, rape, torture, starvation... outweigh the good in life. Ultimately nobody can answer the question of whether life is worth it, because we have no way of calculating such things.

I'm not arguing for the value of my morality, I'm arguing the worthlessness of your system. While if you were right about God, you would be correct about the worthlessness of my morality, you wouldn't have made any case for the worth of your own system, you simply would have made the point that the issue of morality is largely pointless.

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Your argument seems to boil

Your argument seems to boil down to either:

1. We cannot, with a high degree of confidence, precisely predict or assign probabilities and magnitudes to all harms and benefits that will be caused by committing or not committing an act.

2. Because we don't have a perfect ability to do so, we should pretend we have no ability to do so.

3. And we should instead put aside the substantial but imperfect ability we have to do so, and instead simply blindly, mindlessly accept and exactly apply some set of absolutes that I think were given by some supernatural entity, even when this set of absolutes (or one of them) is telling us that an act is moral (even a moral obligation) and our own strong sense (from our life experience and all information we gather) indicates that the act is immoral because the likely harms greatly outweighing the benefits (let's say, genocide just to take some other people's land for our own moderate economic benefit).

OR

1. Only the supernatural entity in which I believe knows for sure what harms and benefits occur and will occur.

2. I'm extremely confident that that entity exists and that I know (or should try to determine) what it considers moral and immoral, right and wrong, and that that entity is itself moral and thus would provide rules that call acts moral only if the benefits outweigh the harms, and call acts immoral only if the harms outweigh the benefits.

3. Any sense that we, as humans have that following those rules would be immoral in general or in some particular case must be invalid because we have imperfect knowledge while the supernatural entity has perfect knowledge. So no matter how wrong, how net harmful, how immoral an act seems to us (again, such as genocide for some moderate economic benefit to one's own people), whatever we think must be trumped by these deontological, absolute, one-size-fits-all rules. After all, we may think those millions of innocent people (the genocide victims), men, women and children, whose throats we are cutting (or whom we are enslaving, if you want to go with that hypothetical) are actually suffering or are worse off than they would have been otherwise, but everything we think we see or understand could be just an illusion. Only the supernatural entity in which I believe knows the real truth.

Well, the first #1-3 of the above seems to mistake imperfection for utter uselessness. As for the second #1-3, aside from the general lunatic nature of the whole faith thing, one thing that is puzzling is that you would be more inclined to doubt everything you perceive in life (that everything you think you see and understand, etc.), thinking it could all be a mere illusion, than to doubt your sense of the existence of some particular supernatural entity and your sense of what that entity is like and what it wants us to do and not do. It's just bizarre. It's a psychological trick people of faith play on themselves, much like someone in completely irrational denial of some obvious fact (e.g., the death of a loved one).

[edit -- added question below]

If you had never heard of the Holocaust and I asked you if it was immoral, and you spent 5 years (full-time) learning all about the Holocaust from whatever angles you could think of to try to determine if it was moral or immoral, would be unable to say with much confidence whether or not it was immoral without invoking scripture? And if some highly respected scholar of your religion made a strong case that the Holocaust was indeed moral, even a moral obligation for the Nazis to commit, would you then say that, no matter what it appears to be based on your secular assessment, it must have been moral because apparently your god's rules say it was moral?

What about someone who is rich who runs some kind of organized crime and kills, injures and steals from innocent, lower-income people just to enrich himself. Do you need to consult scripture to know if that is immoral? If you found in your scripture (or some scholar pointed out to you) that actually for that guy to do that is in accordance with the word of God and is thus moral, would you just put aside what you think you see and understand to be happening -- the apparent unjusifiable suffering that guy is inflicting on those people -- and just blindly say "Well, it must be moral, no matter how it looks to me, 'cause I'm just human, so whaddoo I know?? Not a gosh darn thing!"?

 

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I would say the holocaust was

I would say the holocaust was evil based on the suffering. If my idea of humans, was that they were part of pure mechanical forces, only different from animals in degree, I don't know that I would consider killing anything trully bad except for the suffering it causes to familly. I'm not saying that humans are entirelly incapable of assessment of harm, were just incapable of trully determining certain core values, such as the value of life. I think if everybody held your view of existence and held it for a few generations in order to get the effect of religion totally eradicated from the culture, you would see a great deteriotation in the value for human life.

 

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I would say the holocaust

I would say the holocaust was evil based on the suffering.

Wait a minute. Who are you to say that there was suffering at all, let alone to say that the suffering outweighed some benefit that could more than compensate and make the Holocaust (note capitalization) morally justified or even a moral obligation? The suffering could have been an illusion in the eyes of survivors and other witnesses and your history books and films (etc.) all wrong. Only God would know, right? So please answer the questions I asked, which perhaps will help me understand your view better and enable me to reconcile what seem to me at this point to be incompatible statements. And you don't have to bother saying what you think your answer would be (to some related, but more general question) if you had what you think is my general outlook; I'd rather you focus more on addressing the actual question I asked from your own perspective.

I think if everybody held your view of existence and held it for a few generations in order to get the effect of religion totally eradicated from the culture, you would see a great deteriotation in the value for human life.

You're addressing an entirely different question now -- whether or not people would act more morally (per my, more sensible concept of morality: essentially trying more to do greater good and less harm to others) if there were less religion. I'm not one of the Richard Dawkins types who is confident that religion has a net negative impact on behavior. In fact, I lean toward thinking it has a net positive impact, albeit net of much harm done due at least in part to it, because I think a lot of "God-fearing" people would behave in a much worse way if they didn't fear divine punishment and I think a lot of those people would do less good if they didn't anticipate divine reward (and feel divinely inspired). But that's a totally different question from what (or which or our two approaches) is a (more) sensible, responsible and moral approach to assessing the morality of an act. So let's not lose track of the question at hand.

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 "Who are you to say that

 "Who are you to say that there was suffering at all, let alone to say that the suffering outweighed some benefit that could more than compensate and make the Holocaust (note capitalization) morally justified or even a moral obligation? The suffering could have been an illusion in the eyes of survivors and other witnesses and your history books and films (etc.) all wrong"

Yes, it could be all an all illusion. Fortunately I believe in a creator who created our senses and therefore, I don't believe it was.

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Second request for answers to

Second request for answers to my earlier questions, so I'll repeat here (so it's clear which questions I'm referring to) now separated and enumerated. I think you implied answers to the first and third ("yes" for #1 and "no" for #3), but I'm not sure, and you didn't answer the others.

1) If you had never heard of the Holocaust and I asked you if it was immoral, and you spent 5 years (full-time) learning all about the Holocaust from whatever angles you could think of to try to determine if it was moral or immoral, would be unable to say with much confidence whether or not it was immoral without invoking scripture? 

2) And if some highly respected scholar of your religion made a strong case that the Holocaust was indeed moral, even a moral obligation for the Nazis to commit, would you then say that, no matter what it appears to be based on your secular assessment, it must have been moral because apparently your god's rules say it was moral?

3) What about someone who is rich who runs some kind of organized crime and kills, injures and steals from innocent, lower-income people just to enrich himself. Do you need to consult scripture to know if that is immoral? 

4) If you found in your scripture (or some scholar pointed out to you) that actually for that guy to do that is in accordance with the word of God and is thus moral, would you just put aside what you think you see and understand to be happening -- the apparent unjusifiable suffering that guy is inflicting on those people -- and just blindly say "Well, it must be moral, no matter how it looks to me, 'cause I'm just human, so whaddoo I know?? Not a gosh darn thing!"?

 

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1) If you had never heard of

1) If you had never heard of the Holocaust and I asked you if it was immoral, and you spent 5 years (full-time) learning all about the Holocaust from whatever angles you could think of to try to determine if it was moral or immoral, would be unable to say with much confidence whether or not it was immoral without invoking scripture? 

Yes I would be able to say that what I studied was immoral, however, its my faith that would give me confidence in our God given ability to asess the situation. It would also be my faith that would direct me into seeing the value of human life.

) And if some highly respected scholar of your religion made a strong case that the Holocaust was indeed moral, even a moral obligation for the Nazis to commit, would you then say that, no matter what it appears to be based on your secular assessment, it must have been moral because apparently your god's rules say it was moral?

First of all were Protestants so we read the Bible for ourselves. Secondly your question is like me asking " so if you had to stab your mother's heart, to find a cure for cancer would you" I'm not concerned with God commanding the holocaust, so I'm not particularly concerned with you hypothetical.

3) What about someone who is rich who runs some kind of organized crime and kills, injures and steals from innocent, lower-income people just to enrich himself. Do you need to consult scripture to know if that is immoral? 

See #1.

If you found in your scripture (or some scholar pointed out to you) that actually for that guy to do that is in accordance with the word of God and is thus moral, would you just put aside what you think you see and understand to be happening -- the apparent unjusifiable suffering that guy is inflicting on those people -- and just blindly say "Well, it must be moral, no matter how it looks to me, 'cause I'm just human, so whaddoo I know?? Not a gosh darn thing!"?

See # 2

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Your answers to #1 and #3

Your answers to #1 and #3 (essentially the same question, as you see) are apparently "yes", that you can (and presumably do) judge the morality or immorality of acts (in some or all cases) without consulting scripture, at least insofar as you see no conflict with scripture, which was of course the purpose of questions #2 and #4 (also essentially the same question as each other).

You also say that you believe you only have that ability because of God, which I won't debate, because I don't know how that would be debated.

You also seem to be saying that without your faith, you would not see value in human life (correct me if I'm misreading). Well, my first reaction is: Man, I hope I'm not near that guy if he ever loses his faith! If he's right about himself, he'll knife me for my pocket change! Do you really mean to say that someone without faith cannot value human life, in the sense of considering it wrong to harm someone (let alone kill someone) unjustifiably?  Do you think the only thing that keeps me from mugging an old lady for her money is fear of getting caught? We touched on that question (apparently inconclusively) here http://swordscrossed.org/story/20090304/wednesday-open-thread#comment-10... but it seems we need to revisit that question. I have a very strong sense that it is morally wrong for me to mug that lady. On a physiological level, to put it crudely, it would cause me more pain (the guilt, due to associations I've developed in my socialization and probably due to an innate sense of empathy) than pleasure. But leaving aside the physiology (which gets us back to the free will thing), I can tell you that I don't need faith in an imaginary guy in the sky for me to have a strong sense that hurting people unjustifiably (in terms of harms, benefits, as well as considering concepts of merit vs. compassion) is immoral. Do you doubt that what I'm saying is true? Do you still for some reason see it as "illogical"?

In fact, my mother, a "person of faith" always said that she considered me a better person than most "people of faith" because I try to help people and to avoid harming people without any expectation of reward or punishment in the form of ultimate justice from some god. I realize, though that one can argue that if someone thinks he has been awarded his ticket to eternal paradise merely for accepting Jeeeeeeeezzzzusssss, then I guess he's no longer on the reward/punishment system, and perhaps he's doing the right thing out of inspiration rather than perceived incentives. Not sure how that works though -- what's the whole "God-fearing" business about then? Do fundamentalist Christians (who have accepted Jaaayyyyyzzzzusss believe that God will punish them for being bad boys and girls, or are they all set?

Re: your answers to #2 and #4, I think your answers are cop-outs. On the other thread you already gave what I think is an indication of what your answers would be. I asked you about the morality of God, in the Old Testament, telling his "chosen people" to commit genocide in order to take land from other people and to not have to live among them (i.e., "ethnic cleansing"), and your answer was just to refer to the dropping of the A-bomb on Japan and say:

the end may have justified the means. Its the same thing with what the Israelites did, the end being related to things of eternal nature. http://swordscrossed.org/story/20090304/wednesday-open-thread#comment-10...

Of course, one obvious difference between assessing the morality/immorality of dropping the A-bomb on Japan is that it can and should be debated on appropriate moral grounds -- benefits, harms, merit and compassion, whereas your a priori and unquestionable, unshakable presumption in the case of God's order of genocide for the sake of a land grab is that it was moral, period, by definition, because God did it. And there's the rub. Your bottom line is that if all your senses and intellect and intuition, etc., etc., are all telling you very clearly that some act is causing or would cause immense suffering for no apparent justifying benefit, you would still consider it moral (perhaps even a moral obligation) if scripture called for it. So if you discovered in your scripture that God wants you to go out exactly one year from now and kill as many babies as you can find, you would consider that moral, and I suppose a moral obligation, even if, after all your thought and research over the year, you could not figure out any possible way that the suffering you'd cause would be justifiable in terms of some benefit. Right?

Now, you may say, "Oh, but that hypothetical is ridiculous, because I know my God well enough to know that He wouldn't command such a thing". Cop-out City, my friend. Cop-out City. Look, maybe now you've read your scriptures over and over, forward and backward, but when you first had this "faith" thing, did you know every word of your scripture and how you should interpret it? Can you bring yourself back to that earlier time and think of how you would have answered my question then, when perhaps you didn't know what you might find, perhaps explicitly, in the scripture? I suppose you'll probably tell me that from the start you knew God wouldn't order you to do any such thing, but how does that square with the fact that HE DID IT, on a huge scale, according to your own scripture (assuming you include the Old Testament) -- he ordered genocide (we agree on that, right? Deuteronomy 20:11-17; Also Joshua 6:16-21).

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Do you really mean to say

Do you really mean to say that someone without faith cannot value human life, in the sense of considering it wrong to harm someone (let alone kill someone) unjustifiably? 

You could see it as wrong to harm someone.However, I think it would be rather debateable whether killing them was harming them. Our will to live may not be at all logical, and if there's no God, I could see a good case for saying that death is better than life.

Do you think the only thing that keeps me from mugging an old lady for her money is fear of getting caught? We touched on that question (apparently inconclusively) here http://swordscrossed.org/story/20090304/wednesday-open-thread#comment-10... but it seems we need to revisit that question. I have a very strong sense that it is morally wrong for me to mug that lady. On a physiological level, to put it crudely, it would cause me more pain (the guilt, due to associations I've developed in my socialization and probably due to an innate sense of empathy) than pleasure. But leaving aside the physiology (which gets us back to the free will thing), I can tell you that I don't need faith in an imaginary guy in the sky for me to have a strong sense that hurting people unjustifiably (in terms of harms, benefits, as well as considering concepts of merit vs. compassion) is immoral. Do you doubt that what I'm saying is true? Do you still for some reason see it as "illogical"?

No, I don't doubt that. I think that there could theoretically (only theoretically, as there would not be existence without Him), however, I think that God guidance is necessary to place the proper value on things, and give us guidance on what really is best or moral.

In fact, my mother, a "person of faith" always said that she considered me a better person than most "people of faith" because I try to help people and to avoid harming people without any expectation of reward or punishment in the form of ultimate justice from some god. I realize, though that one can argue that if someone thinks he has been awarded his ticket to eternal paradise merely for accepting Jeeeeeeeezzzzusssss, then I guess he's no longer on the reward/punishment system, and perhaps he's doing the right thing out of inspiration rather than perceived incentives. Not sure how that works though -- what's the whole "God-fearing" business about then? Do fundamentalist Christians (who have accepted Jaaayyyyyzzzzusss believe that God will punish them for being bad boys and girls, or are they all set?

The Christian ideal is to be motivated by love and not fear. Actually, pure motives is part of the Christian ethic. The greatest commandment is to "Love God with all your heart... and your neighbor as yourself" Now, pure motives come from God's grace and one might find themselves motivated to seek out after His grace by the hope of eternal life. You're right that some "Christians" may have impure motives, but that's a function of human nature, not of Christian teachikng.

whereas your a priori and unquestionable, unshakable presumption in the case of God's order of genocide for the sake of a land grab is that it was moral, period, by definition, because God did it.

I think you misunderstand my view of God's goodness. I believe that  God does good, because he's actually doing good, not because he is changing the definition of what is good. God is actually doing what is in everyone's best interest. When it comes to a definnition of morality being "That which does most good or least to harm" I don't think we differ.

And there's the rub. Your bottom line is that if all your senses and intellect and intuition, etc., etc., are all telling you very clearly that some act is causing or would cause immense suffering for no apparent justifying benefit, you would still consider it moral (perhaps even a moral obligation) if scripture called for it. So if you discovered in your scripture that God wants you to go out exactly one year from now and kill as many babies as you can find, you would consider that moral, and I suppose a moral obligation, even if, after all your thought and research over the year, you could not figure out any possible way that the suffering you'd cause would be justifiable in terms of some benefit. Right?

That's like asking what I would do if I found out that 2+2=5. God is love, and therefore, he's not going to command me to do something contrary to love.

but how does that square with the fact that HE DID IT, on a huge scale, according to your own scripture (assuming you include the Old Testament) -- he ordered genocide (we agree on that, right? Deuteronomy 20:11-17; Also Joshua 6:16-21).

I think there's a certain arrogance to thinking we know the historical and cultural background of Israel well enough to make a judgment against what they did. I  think Israel was likely in a kill or die situation. Also Israel had a special purpose in beinging God's truth to the world. It was in the interest of all humanity that Israel survive.

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In response to my

In response to my question:

Do you really mean to say that someone without faith cannot value human life, in the sense of considering it wrong to harm someone (let alone kill someone) unjustifiably? 
You reply:
You could see it as wrong to harm someone.However, I think it would be rather debateable whether killing them was harming them. Our will to live may not be at all logical, and if there's no God, I could see a good case for saying that death is better than life.
You shifted from my question regarding “harming” someone to the matter of “killing” someone. Please address my question. You have said that you are capable of perceiving the suffering of others and of considering something immoral on that basis. But you imply (I think) that you can only do so if you “value human life” in the way you can only because (1) God gave you that ability, and (2) you have faith in God. As I said, I won’t bother trying to debate #1 with you, but I’m asking you about #2. Do you think I, a person without faith, let alone faith in your particular deity, lack sufficient ability to perceive the suffering of others and/or lack some perspective necessary for me to consider something immoral on that basis? If that’s not what you’re saying, aren’t you agreeing with me that neither faith in your deity nor faith in any deity is necessary for one to have a sense of the morality/immorality of an act based on (anticipated) harm or benefit to others? And if you are agreeing with me on that point, then how is that agreement consistent with your statement that “God[‘s] guidance is necessary to place the proper value on things, and give us guidance on what really is best or moral”? Is your point that a person without faith in your deity has some ability to judge the morality of an act, but that without faith in your deity and guidance from your deity (as you define that guidance), one’s ability to do so is deeply flawed, and can only be good (or perhaps perfect) with such faith and guidance?
I think you misunderstand my view of God's goodness. I believe that  God does good, because he's actually doing good, not because he is changing the definition of what is good. God is actually doing what is in everyone's best interest. When it comes to a definnition of morality being "That which does most good or least to harm" I don't think we differ.
Huh? That seems to be circular (tautologous) logic. You would generally consider genocide immoral, but if God ordered or committed it, your a priori assumption is that it was indeed moral – and on the same harms vs. benefits basis that is my general criterion for morality. Why do you make this a priori assumption? Because you believe “God [always] does good”. Why do you believe that “God [always] does good”? Because “he’s actually doing good”? How do you know “he’s actually doing good”? Because, no matter how immoral some act of his looks to you (e.g., genocide), it must be good (moral) because “God [always] does good”. So your reasoning is that what God does is necessarily good because God always does good, which you know because God is good, which you know because God always does good, etc., round and round, ad infinitum. Am I misunderstanding something, or is your logic circular?
 
When you first read that God ordered or committed (in the case of the flood w/ Noah) genocide (via battle, drowning and other types of physically and emotionally painful death), wasn’t it your a priori, unquestionable, unshakable assumption and conclusion that it must have been good (moral), even though you hadn’t (yet) found any reason that you can sense to think it moral (no indication that any benefit that you can see came anywhere close to the level of suffering). Well, tell me why you make that firm assumption a priori AND make a similar assumption that God always does good (is always moral), even when committing/ordering genocide, without engaging in circular logic?
 
In response to my question: 
So if you discovered in your scripture that God wants you to go out exactly one year from now and kill as many babies as you can find, you would consider that moral, and I suppose a moral obligation, even if, after all your thought and research over the year, you could not figure out any possible way that the suffering you'd cause would be justifiable in terms of some benefit.
You reply: 
That's like asking what I would do if I found out that 2+2=5. God is love, and therefore, he's not going to command me to do something contrary to love.
But your logic is circular, and ultimately depends on what you think God wants (per your reading of scripture and any other perceptions you have of divine communications). You see, in the Old Testament, God ordering and committing genocide (via painful means – i.e., apparently causing great human suffering) without apparent, clear moral justification, but the moment you learn of these acts (before you even have a chance to try to find some plausible moral justification) you ASSUME, unquestionably, unshakably, that the act must have been moral. So you say that God wouldn’t order you to kill babies for no reason apparent to you, because he wouldn’t do such a thing, yet you know he did, so you say it must have been moral, yet you dismiss the hypothetical of God ordering you to do something similar because it would be “contrary to love”. Well, by your circular logic, if God ordered you to do it, it would, by virtue of having been ordered by God, NOT be “contrary to love”, but rather “good”, morally justified and indeed a moral imperative! Right? And again, you can’t say there’s no way God would order you to do inflict great suffering (e.g., killing those babies) for no apparent justifiable reason that you can see, because it flies in the face of your own scripture (the fact that God DID it) and reasoning.  
I think there's a certain arrogance to thinking we know the historical and cultural background of Israel well enough to make a judgment against what they did. I  think Israel was likely in a kill or die situation. Also Israel had a special purpose in beinging God's truth to the world..
Boy, you really sound like God’s P.R. spokesperson, shilling for him and reflexively making excuses for him rather than asking the question for yourself.
 
Oh, and even if we accept your convenient assumption (substantiated by what, I wonder) that Israel’s survival dependent on their committing complete genocide, who the hell says that “It was in the interest of all humanity that Israel survive” to such an extent that it justified genocide? Oh yeah, you assume so because your scripture says so and because God always does good. All your circular logic is making me dizzy.

Can we just state the bottom line here:

1. You firmly believe that God is perfectly moral -- that God would never do something, or tell people to do something, that was immoral in terms of harms exceeding benefits. You have no basis for this belief (any more than you do for your belief that there is a God in the first place), but that is nevertheless your firm belief.

2. Given #1, anything that God has ever done or ordered people to do, no matter how seemingly immoral (e.g., genocide by painful means without apparent observable benefit to justify it), must have been moral (good). God knows more than we do, so he must know why it's moral even if we can't see it, and in some cases we may be able to assume some justifiable benefits based on (circling back) God's word (e.g., the survival of the Israelites benefitting humanity enough to justify genocide).

3. Given #2, anything that God does in the future or orders people to do, no matter how seemingly immoral (e.g., killing babies for no apparent reason), must be moral.

4. Given #3, if you thought that God ordered you (in some way, directly or via scripture) to inflict great harm on others (e.g., slicing up babies) for no justifiable reason that you could figure out, you would assume that the order must be a moral imperative upon you.

5. You say #4 wouldn't happen, yet it did happen (genocide committed by and ordered by God in the Old Testament), and all you can do is try to throw out presumptions that provide some supposed moral justification, which again brings us back in circular fashion.

In summary, you start with the baseless presumptions that there is the deity you imagine and that it is perfectly moral, thus anything it tells people to do is immoral, and if some act or practice that you think this deity has ordered seems immoral to us based on our sense of harms and benefits, we must be wrong, because we have imperfect knowledge and judgment, whereas the deity you imagine has perfect knowledge and jugement. So it really all comes down to what you think this deity wants, and once you think you know that, no act that you think it wants you or anyone else to do, no matter how seemingly immoral, is actually immoral. Rather, it is a moral imperative, whether it involves committing genocide for no apparent justifiable reason or whatever.

Frankly, it's really, really bizarre to have conversations like this with a sane person, particularly someone who is a rational, critical thinker in all other matters. Weird stuff, man. And kinda scary, too, since there's no way to convince someone that an act would be immoral on the basis of apparent harms far exceeding and benefits if he's convinced that his deity has ordered it.

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Euthyphro dilemma

"Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"
ie
"Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"

"Christian philosophers, starting with Thomas Aquinas have often answered that the dilemma is false: [God does what is good because God is good"
ie genocide is good if command by God, because possibly the other side is "immoral" or out to get you.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I'd rather you spell out your

I'd rather you spell out your point more clearly. Is your point just that one answer some have is that whatever God does, it must be justified/good/moral even if it seems immoral to us based on our limited information? If so, I already covered that.

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More or less,

The main refutation was that:
If God did it, it must have been good, even the things that are normally bad, then it was good for other reasons, even if the reasons sound petty, insignificant, and could be corrected through other means, even by people.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Yeah, sounds like you're

Yeah, sounds like you're saying what I described. Even if it looks bad to us, if God did it, it must have been good.

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Were you born this bigotted?

Or did you have to work at it?  What a myopic worldview you have regarding other people and their religious views.

No, I was referring to the deterioration of the kind of faux morality that you call "moral values", indeed an immoral approach to morality, one that doesn't base morality on the harm or benefit that an act is expected to cause (which is the basis for true morality) but rather on some lazy and self-serving substitute for such thinking and moral calculus.

Have you ever considered that the Bible, ultimately written by man (although some call it the word of God), may just be an accumulation of exactly this kind of moral calculus based on literally generations upon generations of experience?  I haven't read word one of the thing but I can see it for what it truly is.  I have heard enough about what it says to know that it is a presecription for living a useful and productive life, and for organizing a useful and productive society.

And who's to say that the accumulated wisdom of thousands of years doesn't, in some sense, become the word of God?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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"I would say that lack of

"I would say that lack of principles – if by principles you mean political philosophy -- aren’t the problem with Rush,"

I don't really consider less taxes, and less domestic spending, to be a political philosophy, unless, of course, you're an anarchist. One's political philosophy could lead one to be for less spending and less taxes at a certain time, but unless their philosophy is anarchism, their philosophy won't be less taxes, and spending under all circumstances all the time. Political philsophy is more about the role government should play, levels of taxes and spending is policy designed to fulfill the philosophy. Rush, however, takes policy like lower taxes, and lower spending, and treats it like its a principle. Therefore, rather than reason from the point of a certain idea of what role government should play - a certain principle, on everything he has a kneejerk reaction based whether its increasing or decreasing spending or whether it follows some other policy pretending to be a principle.

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Everyone hates government

 until they lose their job and need to collect unemployment, or the traffic light quits working and they have to call the city to fix it.

 I agree that the R's need a new message besides, tax cuts solve every problem under the sun.

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everyone hates theft

Everyone hates theft until they "want something but don't want to pay for it."

I'm not trying to equate government with theft, just pointing out that the decisions of desperate people (unemployed) don't necessarily provide the best guidelines for how we structure society.

With that being said, I'll leave open the possibility that systematized "theft" may actually provide better protection for private property than just leaving the act up to the desparate people themselves.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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I don't get what you are saying....

at all.

Decisions of desperate people....., exactly what decisions are unemployed people making that has a negative impact on society? 

Your analysis does not compute.

 I would argue, (if I think I get your drift) that health insurance (which costs a whole lot) is a much greater risk of systematized theft with much worse outcomes, and irrational costs than unemployment insurance (which costs a little).

 

 

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nevermind

I was trying to be clever by quoting a song, which just confused the whole point.

 

nevermind

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Been caught....

... stealing, once -- when I was five.....

Heh.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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They keep asking their political representatives ...

 to pick everyone else's pockets.

... exactly what decisions are unemployed people making that has a negative impact on society?

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I realize that's what you

I realize that's what you meant. Maybe we just have a semantic difference. I see Rush as saying federal government spending and taxation are far too high now (which he has said for the past two decades) and should be lowered. Although I'm not a regular listener, I assume that at times he talks about types of federal government spending that he considers inappropriate. Where I think you and I would agree is that he doesn't get into at what point he would stop moving in that direction (what would be ideal in terms of the size and scope of government), and he isn't pragmatic or honest either in terms of economics or political feasibility.

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We are so far away from that point ...

I assume that at times he talks about types of federal government spending that he considers inappropriate. Where I think you and I would agree is that he doesn't get into at what point he would stop moving in that direction (what would be ideal in terms of the size and scope of government) ...

that there is actually no real point in talking about when to turn on the breaks.  But for what its worth, I haveno doubt that Rush believes we should collect enough taxes to pay for the things that the constitution says we should expect of the Federal government.  As it stand now we aren't even within sight of that, much less spittin' distance.

... and he isn't pragmatic or honest either in terms of economics or political feasibility.

And here we have the view of someone who admits he doesn't even know what the man says.  How rational is that?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Thats because during our lifetimes...

...those are two universal themes that have been relevant.

And of course with less spending comes smaller government, and with smaller government comes less need for revenue, hence less taxes.

So it is indicative of a political philosophy, the one the founders advocated, and the one that the constitution specifies.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Rush is a bully (this relates to the RINO issue)

very simple hyper-partisan worldview in which everybody to the left of him is at war(or accomodating) with all that is good. Rather than argue from principles ( which is ironic, because his apologists will say he's all about principle), of what size government should be and what taxes are needed to support it, he just sticks to the simple formula of cut spending and taxes - which would logically lead to no government. Moderates are called sqishes, if you don't agree with him you have a brain full of mush. These are the reasons that people don't like Rush. I think Frum totally misses the point when he talks about things like his appearance, drug use, and his private jet... most people don't even know these things or care. What they know is what they hear on the radio.

In other words, Rush is a bully.  (FWIW, I think many people are aware of his appearance, and it does reinforce the impression that he is a bully--the photo at the top of this diary illustrates the point well)

In a related issue, the fact that we have the word "RINO" in our dictionary, and Frum feels the need to dodge that label speaks volumes about the influence of partisan bullies in our politics. A person's critique should not be dismissed because he is not sufficiently partisan (though maybe you'd dismiss an opposing partisan). This elevation of party above country is sickening.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Party Above Country

is sickening, and I am going to say, at this particular moment in time dangerous.

I just find it utterly astonishing how much Republicans lie, continously, just for the sake regaining political power.

The anti-tax crowd on Wall Street has created a panic, by asking everyday when the market will bottom and is it Obama's fault.

Frank Schaffer the son of the father of one of the fathers of the religious right is fed up with this dangerous nonsense of rooting for Americas doom so that Republicans can step in to save the country, with (tax cuts presumably).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/why-are-the-republicans-s_...

Today the Republican Party is rooting for doom. And since the Republicans are now anti-American members of an Obama-must-fail insurgency, lies become a self-fulfilling prophecy: talk doom, and keep the economy in a panic and we may get what we wish for.

So, what is the problem with lying to our faces, say, claiming that all American's taxes are going up when 95% of American's taxes are going to go down? Why not claim Obama is a socialist, even if he's not? Why not say anything at all to drive our country into a pit when losing is seen as winning? That, is all the Republicans have to offer America: more lies on a path to destruction from which the Republican "leadership" plans to resurrect themselves and "save" America from Obama.

The Republican religious nuts are rooting for Jesus to "rapture" them, not for America, and the neoconservatives are rooting for war and the Israeli hard liners, not for America. Truth (and sanity) are out the window.

 

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I think you have us confused with the liberals ...

I just find it utterly astonishing how much Republicans lie, continously, just for the sake regaining political power.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Is this the liberal equivalent to the Make a Wish Foundation?

Because it is nonsense.

Rush is representative of 235 MILLION listeners a week, his last book sold 40 MILLION copies, and his views are consistent with the majority in the Republican Party.

Please tell me what his radical, non party aligned views would be?

Rush speaks for a very significant % of Americans, and you guys would like nothing more than to marginalize that, if fact that is the only transparent thing thats gone on in Barry's Administration. LOL!

From the Pelosi plan to reinstate the "fairness" doctrine, to Obama's snide tongue in cheek comments, to the laughable assertion there is a problem between Michael Steele and Rush on who's running the party!

What a joke, if this is your best sneak attack I am horrified you all are running the military! ;-)

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Keep up the good work!

 Rush speaks for so many Americans, who want Obama to fail. That's just great  news.

 Good luck in the next election, if that's the case. Rush alienates, women, blacks, Latinos gays and moderates with his hate rhetoric.

My hope is that every Republican has to bend over and kiss Rush's fat ass. 

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Wikipedia says 14 million listeners a week

...so that means you've exaggerated his audience by a multiple of nearly 17.

his views are consistent with the majority in the Republican Party

He makes sure they are with his scathing treatment of deviators from his hyperpartisan view.  And now that Republican politicians are kneeling down and smooching his boots so they will stay clear of his bad side, a feedback loop has generate whereby Rush can generate more power.  Problem is that, like is often the case with a hurricane, as power increases, area of coverage gets smaller.  Rush holds great power over a shrinking group of partisan, far-right Republicans.  For nearly everybody else, the guy is a major political turnoff-- not in the sense that they will all refuse to listen to him, I admit to tuning in sometimes when I'm driving from Columbus to Mansfield-- but in the sense that they find his general world view to be distasteful.

 

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235 MILLION listeners a

235 MILLION listeners a week

I assume that is double and triple and quadruple (etc.) counting the same jackasses that listen several days a week, right? If so, isn't that a misleading stat to throw out there?

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Quite so

235 million is about the adult population of the US.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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RW, I think I found your

RW, I think I found your (cough, cough) source (or the original source for whomever your mistaken source was) for that 235 million. I Googled "235 million" and "Rush Limbaugh" and the first link listed was this http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/03/business/03radio.php which is referring to the weekly audience of all radio (or at least all talk radio) with that 235 million (and that figure from the trade group promoting radio to maximize ad revenue)!!

Limbaugh's windfall comes at an acutely tough time for the radio industry, which has been troubled by technologies like iPods and a sluggish advertising climate. The total time spent listening to radio has fallen 16 percent in the last decade, according to data compiled by Arbitron, the measurement firm.

Advertisers have taken note: Nielsen Monitor-Plus, an advertising information service, measured a 3.6 percent decline in national radio spending last year.

"Frankly, since 2001, we've had a number of things going against us," said Jeff Haley, the chief executive of the Radio Advertising Bureau.

In April, the bureau, a trade group, helped introduce "Radio Heard Here," a marketing campaign that is meant to reiterate the medium's relevance and emphasize that it reaches 235 million listeners a week.

Later in that same article:

Limbaugh's show attracts reaches an audience of nearly 20 million in an average week, according to [Premiere Radio Networks, syndication subsidiary of Clear Channel Communications]

I would think, RW, considering that the entire U.S. population is about 300 million, including children, and that a lot of people don't have a chance to listen to the radio during the business day, let alone have an interest in what Rush has to say, that the 235 million figure would have struck you as very counterintuitive and worth spending the whole one minute I spent to fact-check it. Is this one of those "facts" that has been passed back and forth so many times on RedState that everyone there assumes it's true?

 

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The other thing....

.... to bear in mind about those listener totals is that they are weekly totals.....

Rush is on 5 days a week -- 20 million listeners a week, which works out to about 4 million per day... 

That's spot on with Premiere Radio Networks estimate of the number of listeners tuned in during any given 15 minute block of his show (3.59 million). 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29562988/

So who knows?  He's popular, no doubt.  Are there 20 million dittoheads in the US?  Apparently, nobody really knows.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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You can listen for two seconds

 and that counts toward the total of listeners.

 20 million people listen, some for the whole show, some for just a few seconds. The exact number of ditto heads is probably much less than 20 million.

 Plus the fact that he is on so  many radio stations that if you are driving thru timbuktu and turn on the radio, his is like the only voice that tunes in. (nightmare)

 I usually tune into his show for a few minutes every day just to keep ahead of the propaganda. The things he asserts are so outlandish, it makes me want to take an ice pick and stab  my eyes out.

 He may make a lot of money, but I don't think he is a very happy man. 

 Dollars to donuts he doesn't even go to church every week.

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What does he say that makes you hate him so...

...be specific please.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Rush-hate

It's pretty clear to me that he wants to be hated. He seems completely incapable of discussing an issue without personally insulting anyone who holds a view opposite his own. Of course, I rarely listen to his blather, so maybe I just got unlucky and my sample is skewed. But I have never heard him discuss an environmental issue without using the term "environmental wackos." I have never heard him refer to  feminists as anything other than feminazis. I have never heard him refer to any Democrat by his or her real name, it's always some derogatory pet name that he has made up, or at best it is a real name pronounced with some odd accent or pronunciation that makes it obvious that there is zero respect involved.

He thrives on being hated. The more he is hated, the more press he gets, and the more his ratings go up.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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The rhetoric Rush is spewing

 right  now is akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater.

 You can wonder how wise it is to highlight his rhetoric, but I think it is important that people understand that he doesn't care if the country succeeds, he only cares if he does.

 That's is why shining a spotlight on his hate speech, may be good for his ratings for now, but it is important that people understand that he is coming from a position of pure hate, and it is dangerous for the country.

 I get the sense the he would be for marching liberals to the gas chamber and the showers of death if he had his way. At least that is the way he talks.

 

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I will give you the fact he is a non believer in man made global

warming, and being a surfer, and being as I also have a love of the enviroment, I am often stunned at his lack of thoughtfulness in that regard.

So, point conceded there.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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You guys are so multi-dimensional!

Red Wing surfs, MissL is a great photographer..I think a good cool-down diary would be to find out what you guys do when you're not working or politically plugged in. I think it would add some color to the black and white mind photos I have of you all thus far...

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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Heh

He seems completely incapable of discussing an issue without personally insulting anyone who holds a view opposite his own.

And of course that never happens here ;-)

 

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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No one here

 has the power to make their party bend over and kiss foot, if they speak out against our opinions.

 That is the issue, essentially, that he is demanding that conservatives kow tow, and apologize if they dare contradict him. It essentially strangles a lot of the more moderate voices in the GOP. GHWB, for example believed in birth control and other priorities that Rush emphatically insists are unacceptable.

 Do you know any other radio host with that holds that much power and sway over their party? He is essentially holding many in his party hostage.

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Some examples, please?

 Of precisely where and how he is doing all of this?

P.S. How often do you listen to his show?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Briefly every day

 Last week he was especially horrendous.

   The most glaring of course is his wish that he has stated openly more than once, that he wants the President to fail He did not say his policies.

He said he wants the President to fail. No nuance, no apologies. I wouldn't mind if he said that to a few friends, but remember he has a blaring microphone and a monopoly on the radio. The rhetoric he uses is inflamtory and dangerous at a time when many people are truly frightened.

 I don't want to go tit for tat why you think that is groovy, or your excuse that pointing fingers backwards makes it okay. (55 years ago a democrat said x and therefore I will continue today on a mission of vengance, the country be damned, the socon republican party is always right)

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The President is espousing policing with which he disagrees.

He has made the nuance perfectly clear.  So why on earth would any sane person want him to succeed if they were espousing things which were antithetical to their own ideals?

Rush has said clearly that if Obama was espousing the things he cared about and believed in that he would be cheering him on.

As for the fifty years ago comment, how about all of the last eight?  At what point in time were the Democrats doing anything other than actively undermining Bush or stabbing their supporters in the backs to save their own political necks (i.e. by voting against the interests of those supporters in favor of the interests of all their constituents who hold the power to elect or not)?

OK, now back to the actual question I was asking ... examples please of how Rush "makes" people do things?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I am continually amazed

by your perception that people "make" other people do things:

  • Mean mortgage companies made people take out balloon rate loans.
  • Rush makes conservatives believe what he believes.   He strangles moderate voices in the GOP.

That's not how it works.  People choose to do things.   Of course, if things turn out not so good, they might later try to escape responsibility for their actions by blaming someone else.    But they still had a choice; I doubt that Rush held a gun to George's head and said "thou shalt do X" with regards to birth control.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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That is not my perception at all

 my perception is that many people are sheep. Peer pressure, and keeping up with the Jones's are examples. There is such a thing as mass psychology and the study of political perceptions.

If you have a microphone you can influence peoples views. 

Predatory lenders abused people's trust in authority. It's called a scam. It's called a fraud.

Steel apologized to Rush as did other Republicans who criticized him, because politically it was suicide to go against Rush's conservative principles.

  George Sr. was a  liberal Republican from Conneticut.  He would not make it in today's Republican party. The social conservatives still hate him.

 

 

 

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I think the sheep would be insulted

I know what you mean, and yes, I observe "sheepish" <groan> behavior also.   But where we differ is that I think the actions of the sheep are still the responsibility of the sheep, not of the shepherd.

Predatory lenders abused people's trust in authority. It's called a scam. It's called a fraud.

No.  A scam and a fraud is offering false information.   Saying "your rate will go up in five years, but by then, you might have a better job" is not false information.   That is factually true.  Believing it, and betting your house upon it, is called taking a risk.   Just like in Vegas, people choose to take risks all the time. 

Having all the details in the voluminous documentation one has to sign to close a house is not a scam or false information.   Failing to read and understand those details is laziness.  Signing legal documents when you don't fully understand what you're signing is, er, stupidity.   

But most people caught in this were simply victims of their own champagne tastes when their budget called for beer.  They preferred to believe the lovely sounding marketing they were told instead of thinking of the actual and real impact of the obligations they were taking on.

The Rush v  Steele issue just strikes me as odd and a little comical.   But really I think it's more a case of two roosters in the farmyard, and nothing more substantive than that.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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We will have to disagree

 I don't think a lot of folks realized that they should not trust their mortgage lenders. I don't think a lot of folks realized that they need to hire a lawyer at their own expense to sign a mortgage contract.

 No doubt there were speculators gaming the system, but there were also plenty of good people who believed that Alan Greenspan was an authority, that their house would be worth more next year, and that their mortgage broker was in fact honest. 

 It rankles a bit that you are so eager to place blame on those idiots that didn't read the fine print. It is easy to understand the bumper sticker, "Honk if you want to pay your neighbors mortgage". Can we remember that the percentage of such mortgages is very small. Overall anywhere there was credit the investment bankers were using it for creative investment. The problem is not isolated in housing.

 Everyone is saying this is so unfair. How stupid could people be. They were all lazy idiots. Well some were and some weren't.

 Since your main focus is fixing the banking system, it surprises me a bit that you are not more rankled about bailing out bank executives who made the most unethical decisions with the stupid people's money.

 Part of the reason people are so f-tuii spitting mad is that we the US tax payers are being asked in a metaphorical sense to bail out the Jeff Shilling's of Enron.

 The Enron scandal was essentially the same accounting scam and unethical book keeping that the banks engaged in. Enron bankrupted thousands of long time workers  retirement funds while laughing as they speculated up the price of energy costs.

 Enron was the canary in the coal mine of the accounting practices investment bankers would use..... the little birdies were singing beware ..... there was pretty talk, yet behind everyone's back the same practices were being used by Wall Street and investment bankers.

 Isn't the best way to help the financial system, is not have more foreclosures so that the toxic assets don't grow? As galling as it is to help the stupid people that refinanced their homes so they could live like the folks on TV, it is much more galling to me that we 'have' to literally bail out the folks at the top, the Enron types, the theives, that created this whole mess.

 Rush  got a birthday cake from President #43. He also got his talking points from the White House. Not sure if Steele every was invited under Bush's wing, in the same way that Rush was.

 I don't want to bail out any of these people, frankly, the bankers or the stupid people. But I don't see that we have much of a choice since our whole financial system was Enronized by the smartest guys in the room.

 One comes to grips that capitalism has it flaws. More is not always better. 

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He is sabatoging

 the effort to bring our nation out of the economic crises. It really is a crises. Seriously! It's not a joke it is serious.

  These are scary times, but I don't think it is constructive to declare that Obama, and thereby the country should fail. He is riling people up with rhetoric to the point where it is literally very dangerous and destructive to the country.

 Whether you are I participated in the gluttonous excesses that brought our financial system to a screeching halt is not important. What is important is that we are all in the same boat. 

 Rush is urging people to cheer against an economic recovery, with outlandish lies.  it is sickening to the nth degree.

 I would not want to be in a foxhole with Rush LImbaugh. He is the kind of guy that would turn you in to save his own fat ass. 

 And btw, the President has clearly stated he has no intention of bringing back the fairness doctrine. Yet again Rush continually LIES about it.

He is stirring hatred in the country with out and out LIES! In my view it almost borders on treason.

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ML - 2nd request....

Please give me specific cases where he has said things that make you hate him so.

I already know you don't like him and think he is trying to ruin our country, but why, specifically?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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If I may answer for ML...

How about: ( www.fair.org/index.php  )

"Here is a Limbaugh joke: Everyone knows the Clintons have a cat. Socks is the White House cat. But did you know there is a White House dog?" And he puts up a picture of Chelsea Clinton. Chelsea Clinton is 13 years old.
 

Now, I know you'll be tempted to dredge up something that some idiot on the left has said about Condoleeza Rice or whoever.  Tu quoques aside, can you at least acknowledge that was a disgusting thing to say about a 13-year-old? 

Then there's:

"When a gay person turns his back on you, it is anything but an insult ; it's an invitation."

and

"Feminism was established to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream."

That last one is particulary galling, as the premise shows how he must think.  Access to the "mainstream" for women is dependant on attractiveness?  Ugly women deserve to be shunned?  What the hell?  I would think it'd be relatively easy to rail against the excesses of feminism without being a total dick about it.

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I don't want to defend the guy......

.... because I don't agree with him much, or like him much.... but you know, it's a speech thing.  He's an entertainer.  People think that stuff is funny.  Or something.

But -- back to the question -- should the Republicans line up behind the guy, or would that be a serious political error?  I think it's a serious political error, personally -- partly because he says stuff like this all the time -- funny to his audience, profoundly unfunny to everyone else.  I mean, is it comedy?  Is it a political philosophy?  Do people know the difference?  Here's another example...

 

"One of the things I want to do before I die is conduct the homeless Olympics," he told his audience. Events would include "the 10-meter Shopping Cart Relay, the Dumpster Dig and the Hop, Skip and Trip," he said as the audience erupted into laughter and applause.

 

(source: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedailymirror/2009/03/voices----rush.html )
 

Oh, ha.  Ha ha.  My sides are splitting.

It's schtick.  Limbaugh himself would have been the first to admit it's schtick, up until the time he started taking himself seriously in the mid 90's.  It's like Jon Stewart... except much more mean spirited, and you know... not funny.

 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Rush is not more mean spirited that Jon Stewart ...

 but he IS much funnier.  To all you people who can dish it out (in terms of tasteless commentary about conservatives) but not take it ... all I have to say is, "Get over it!".

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Well you know....

I guess humor is a subjective thing.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Tell that

to the Republicans who supplicate themselves before Rush and grovel for his good graces and  for political expediencey, after they make innocuous comments that he thinks oppose his conservative values.

 Maybe he should start his own church.

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Well, and really....

.... that is the point, isn't it?  I don't think Stewart is a mean spirited as Limbaugh, but let's say for the sake of argument that he is.  Would a Democratic politician apologize to Stewart for straying from Daily Show orthodoxy (if the Daily Show had any orthodoxy, that is)?   Would a Democratic politician who criticized Stewart be forced to issue a retraction?  I'd love to see that, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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At least Jon Stewart has the decency...

...to shut up after a half an hour.... Rush drones on for 3 full hours!

 

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Stewart is just ripping CNBC to shreds

 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/10/jim-cramer-defends-himsel_n_173450.html

 It is ironic that with three channels following the finance industry none of them have really offered analysis as to why we are in a financial hurricane, other than it has nothing to do with 'us' or AIG or Wall Street scruples. If they are the watchdogs of financial investment exactly whom are they protecting.

 It is also bizarre that Cramer feels the need to defend himself from this common 'vulgar' network comedian. Did Stewart hit a nerve?

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Interesting, but I just hit the 5 by accident, 23M is the number

n/t

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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If that's the case, please

If that's the case, please provide link to your source for that 23 million.

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This what I read last week sometime...

Is this “act” the Dems are putting on part of a plan to shut down talk radio and blame Rush for it? Well, estimates are that 23 million people listen to Rush. Do you really want to anger that many people, most all of whom are real taxpayers and are feeling a bit insecure right now?

...and there are others, they seem to range from 14M to absurdly high numbers but 20M is the most commonly stated, anyway BR, what is the point, Rush Limbaugh is one of, if not the most listened to radio shows on the planet, thats the point.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Well, my point doesn't relate

Well, my point doesn't relate to your original point, but to fact-checking. And needless to say, if you're going to cite some specific stat like that, you should probably include a link to your source so people can see if you are getting it from some, ahem, highly reliable source like "D." of the "Right Girls Bloggers", cough, cough.

Edit: By the way, a few minutes of Googling yielded this WaPo article from yesterday, in case you are interested in fact-checking beyond some right-wing echo chamber: "Limbaugh's Audience Size? It's Largely Up in the Air" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/06/AR200903...

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You are correct, as usual... ;-)

But I was responding off the cuff really to make a larger point, not to quibble over what amounts to, in light of my intent, mere semantics.

I find it funny that these guys will jump on any bandwagon in town in an effort to marginalize what is in my mind an awesome achievement, Rush Limbaugh's success is unprecedented and credit is due where it deserves to be given.

So when we say he is reaching 10's of millions of Americans a week, or that his last book sold 40 million copies, those are real people, and, well that can not be wished away by liberal rationalizations or the lefts hate tatics.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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What type of credit are you

What type of credit are you saying is due? Certainly he is very commercially successful. And it sure seems that he has gotten a LOT of people to believe he offers great knowledge, insights and guidance. Anything beyond that? Any implication of that that you're making? Because an exceptionally talented (entertaining, engaging, adept at deceiving people who want to believe whatever will feel good to them) talk radio guy combined with the large number of self-righteous, hyperpartisan simpletons in this country pretty much makes for those accomplishments, but I don't know what credit for that is worth, and I certainly don't think it implies any validity or worth to anything the guys says.

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Double pfft ...

Because an exceptionally talented (entertaining, engaging, adept at deceiving people who want to believe whatever will feel good to them) talk radio guy combined with the large number of self-righteous, hyperpartisan simpletons in this country pretty much makes for those accomplishments ...

If that were true Air America would have taken off like a rocket.  (Hint: it didn't.)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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It's largely up in the air ...

 but generally estimated to be between 14M and 30M with Limbaugh only claiming a conservative 20M.  And the take away quote given your infantile attempt at posturing:

No matter the exact figure, Harrison says Limbaugh's weekly audience eclipses all other nationally syndicated personalities, including conservatives Sean Hannity (13.25 million), Michael Savage (8.25 million) and Laura Ingraham (5.5 million), according to the magazine's "rough projections."

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Hey man...

.... keep on riding that pony if you think it'll get you where you want to be.

I listened to Rush last week.  Does that make me a dittohead?

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Thats one more time than I did...

...does that mean I'm not?

I rarely listen to Rush, I am too busy, but I just stated the facts in light of the echo chamber that had ensued in this thread. ;-)

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Well....

.... you did sort of get the facts wrong, and you also accused the folks who think Rush's brand of political commentary isn't really serving the Republicans' best interests of 'wishful thinking'.  Which is fine if that's what you think... but that sort of ends the conversation.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Ok....?

Have a great day then...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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True dat.

i[n] fact that is the only transparent thing thats gone on in Barry's Administration. LOL! 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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The funny thing is that the

The funny thing is that the Dittoheads think that Rush listener = Dittohead. Therefore, Rush has twenty million listeners, so that means he has 20,000,000 people who see him as the great oracle of our day. The funnier thing is that they think if only indys will listen to Rush they will turned into Dittoheads. I imagine the thinking would go something like " Wow! I'm a squish with a brain full of mush?! I'd better go quick become a conservative." 

BTW I don't talk about talk radio out of ignorance. During my teen and high-school years talk radio was my T.V. , as my familly didn't have much T.V., and being a political junkie I listened to lots of talk radio.

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Good points. By the way,

Good points. By the way, perhaps the most absurd thing I've heard -- and have heard many times -- on talk radio is something Sean Hannity regularly does. If the caller begins with "Sean, you're a great American!", Hannity will immediately reply with "YOU'RE  a great American!", as if all that is need for one to qualify as a great American is to call Hannity a great American!! I guess that's a combination of hyperpartisanship and narcissism.

I try to carve out a small portion of my news and opinion diet for overtly partisan talk radio of left and right (I say "overtly" because most of my radio listening is spent with WNYC, the NPR affiliate, which I'd call center-left except for a couple of programs obsessively focused on race matters, but which makes a reasonable attempt to get both/multiple sides of issues). I do so because (1) I want to consider the arguments, however crude, oversimplified and misleading they usually are, (2) I want to know what others are hearing that is influencing the political debate on an issue or campaign and that is influencing the trends in the nature and quality of political discourse in America. I'd recommend that approach to anyone, but unfortunately all too many people consume that crap as the bulk of their news & opinion diet. And then some people (no offense RW, if you're reading this, but you seem to be one, although at least you venture out of the insular confines of echo chambers like RedState) tend to reflexively repeat the talking points that they've apparently never really fact-checked or thought through.

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This is pretty good

 an interview with a son of the father of the conservative religious movement.

His passion shows through in this video clip.

http://crooksandliars.com/media/play/qt/7504/26496

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Specter, I never knew you were a Republican?!?!?

WTF?  :) 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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The winds of change brother

Oh, and that horrible bike accident I got in without wearing a helmet.  :-)

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Rush Limbaugh:

The Republicans don't want him as their spokesperson, because he's so crazy that he's proven to be an embarassment for them.  Let's not forget, however, that the Republicans created the atmosphere that made it possible for the rise of guys like Rush Limbaugh in the first place.

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but but but Rush has lots of experience

 and he knows what he is doing.

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